Israel Has No Place In Closing Events.

Grip Docility

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Thank you, enjoyed the discussion...


Demas would be an example of a NT "disobedience"..

As you have a Born again Christian, who "loved the present world"., and went back to have some more of it.

Paul never said......"He's lost'.......and that is because He can't be born again, and lost later.

A lot are like this today...
Okay, if you research the verse that includes the word "disobedience", it goes on a bit more, but bridges into a metaphor for baptism. Most translations don't show you, but some do, that the verse is missing a portion of itself, as we do not have the complete manuscripts for that particular verse, but only literal fragments.

It's a unique verse, because, though it is fragmented, the scribes and so forth got every bit out of the verse that they could and thought it very important to provide it, even though it is fragmented.

One distinction I believe that you should look in to... "Sheol" and "Bosom of Abraham"... See, Sheol is the place of the dead that died apart from unity with God, while the Bosom of Abraham was the Jewish place that you would go, if you died in unity with God. Due to Greek conflation and a gross misunderstanding of "Gehena", Modern translations conflate "Hell", with "Sheol"...

Gehenna, aka, Hell, aka The Lake of Fire, isn't forged until AFTER JESUS 2nd COMING. Anyhow, if you read early Christian Creeds that date back to as early as 200 A.d. and before... The verse we are discussing was understood by the early church to mean that Christ descended into "Sheol", upon His death... and we know it's not the "Bossom of Abraham", because the creeds say "Hell".

If you care to do the legwork, start with "The Apostles Creed"... it dates back to 341 A.d. and has this mention. It is old enough to make this point.
 
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Aviel

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Gehenna, aka, Hell, aka The Lake of Fire, isn't forged until AFTER JESUS 2nd COMING.

The NEW Testament,......... the verse says that "hell and the lake of fire were created for the Devil and His angels"

So, that means that before Adam was created, "hell and the Lake of fire" were created. " for the Devil and His angels", who were down here BEFORE Adam was created out of dirt and Eve was created out of Adam/.

Hell and the Lake of Fire....are not waiting to be created, and that is why Jesus spoke more about Hell, then He ever taught about Heaven, during His earthly ministry.

And if a person dies today, as never born again, .. and they never believed in Hell before they died.... they believe in it now., as they are in it.
 
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Grip Docility

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The NEW Testament,......... the verse says that "hell and the lake of fire were created for the Devil and His angels"

So, that means that before Adam was created, "hell and the Lake of fire" were created. " for the Devil and His angels", who were down here BEFORE Adam was created out of dirt and Eve was created out of Adam/.

Hell and the Lake of Fire....are not waiting to be created, and that is why Jesus spoke more about Hell, then He ever taught about Heaven, during His earthly ministry.

And if a person dies today, as never born again, .. and they never believed in Hell before they died.... they believe in it now., as they are in it.
By your opinion, When does this occur per Biblical timeline? Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.

13 Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and •Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire 15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

You do understand the usage of the word "Sea", there, do you not?
 
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Aviel

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By your opinion, When does this occur per Biblical timeline? Revelation 20:11

If you are looking for opinion, you'll have to find someone else.

So, regarding Rev 20:11

If your name is not in the Lamb's Book, then that is because it was taken out it when you died a Christ Rejector, never born again.

So, the "sea" is these.. who died here..


John 3:36


And because the Judgment of SIN, has been Judged against Jesus, regarding all the born again........

1.) "God hath made JESUS.... TO BE SIN.....for US">... "US" the born again

2.) "Jesus is the ONE TIME.....ETERNAL..... Sacrifice for SIN".....


So, if you are born again, then Jesus has dealt with your sin.
If you are not born again, then you have yours., still.
 
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Grip Docility

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If you are looking for opinion, you'll have to find someone else.

So, regarding Rev 20:11

If your name is not in the Lamb's Book, then that is because it was taken out it when you died a Christ Rejector, never born again.

So, the "sea" is these.. who died here..


John 3:36


And because the Judgment of SIN, has been Judged against Jesus, regarding all the born again........

1.) "God hath made JESUS.... TO BE SIN.....for US">... "US" the born again

2.) "Jesus is the ONE TIME.....ETERNAL..... Sacrifice for SIN".....


So, if you are born again, then Jesus has dealt with your sin.
If you are not born again, then you have yours., still.
Would you agree that the Great White throne happens as an end time event?
 
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jacob.austin

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Who say
Israel Has No Part In Closing events!!!



Two Different Covenants
Many Christians believe that salvation’s prerequisites change from dispensation to dispensation. In other words, advocates of dispensationalism believe that a person is saved in different ways at different times throughout history. The Bible teaches that salvation from Genesis through Revelation always comes through faith. Hebrews 11 (New Testament) obviously indicates that salvation came through faith during Old Testament times.


In fact, the Bible teaches that faith in God (a willful submission to the call and will of God) was necessary in Heaven before sin began and I believe that faith in God will be necessary throughout eternity. Lucifer and one third of the angels were cast out of Heaven because they refused to trust God.

Adam and Eve sinned because they did not trust God. God’s children, whether fallen or unfallen, sinful or sinless, are called to live a life of faith. Absolute trust in God is the only way finite beings can live with an infinite God “whose ways are not our ways.” (Isaiah 55:9)

Abraham had a heart for God. When God called Abraham to leave his home, the Bible says that by faith Abraham “went out, not knowing whither he went.” (KJV, Hebrews 11:8) Abraham’s departure from home required a lot of faith in God and the Bible states that God counted Abraham as a righteous man because of his faith! (Genesis 15:6) In other words, because of Abraham’s faith, God considered him a saint instead of the sinner he actually was. (Romans 1:17; 4:16; Galatians 3:9) Remember, this happened before God made a covenant with the nation of Israel. Because Abraham humbly walked with God (lived in harmony with God’s calling and will), Jesus honored Abraham’s faith by making three unconditional promises to him. First, Jesus promised to give Abraham’s descendants the land of Canaan. (Genesis 15:18) Second, Jesus promised a childless Abraham that his descendants would someday be as numerous as the stars in the sky. (Genesis 15:5) Third, Jesus promised Abraham that all nations would be blessed through him. (Genesis 18:18)

About four hundred years after making these promises, Jesus miraculously delivered Abraham’s descendants from Egyptian slavery and took them into the desert to prepare them for service. These slaves were the descendants of Jacob, the grandson of Abraham, whose name had been changed to Israel because of his faith in God. At Mount Sinai Jesus entered into a covenant with the nation of Israel. It is important to understand that God’s covenant with the nation of Israel was not for the purpose of salvation. God does not save people in groups. Salvation is an intimate, personal matter. Salvation comes to one person at a time when he surrenders his life to God’s control (lives by faith).

The covenant that God offered the nation of Israel was that of serving as trustees of His gospel. From the beginning of sin, the plan of salvation has operated as a living trust. A living trust has three elements: A benefactor, one or more trustees, and one or more beneficiaries. In a living trust, the benefactor chooses trustees to deliver his benefits to his beneficiaries. Prior to Mount Sinai, the patriarchs were the trustees of the gospel. They spoke for God and the gospel they preached contained important information that was otherwise unknown. After God dispersed humanity at the Tower of Babel and nations formed, He decided to use one nation to reach all the other nations. So, God the Benefactor chose Israel as a trustee through which He would bless all nations (beneficiaries).

The wonderful thing about the eternal gospel is that whosoever will may come and enjoy the benefits of God’s salvation. As the Creator of mankind, God is not exclusive; instead, He is inclusive. At Mount Sinai the nation of Israel agreed to do whatever the Lord commanded. (Exodus 24:3) It is most important to understand the nature and structure of God’s covenant because God’s covenant with Israel was conditional from the beginning. Look at two passages (there are many) from the Old Testament showing that the covenant between God and the nation of Israel was conditional:

1. “Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” (Exodus 19:3–6, italics mine)

2. “If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. . . . However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you.” (Deuteronomy 28:1,15, italics mine)

Fifteen hundred years after establishing His covenant with Israel at Mount Sinai, Jesus came to Earth as the Messiah. The very nation (Acts 3:15) that He had chosen to be His representative on Earth rejected and killed Him. “He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.” (John 1:11; Luke 20:9-16) The Old Testament is unmistakably clear! For 15 centuries, God did everything possible to get Israel to fulfill His objectives, but Israel rebelled at every turn. (Ezekiel 23, Romans 11:20–21) Israel’s rejection of Jesus as the Messiah was “the straw that broke the camel’s back.” The eternal gospel of Jesus could not be given to the world by a rebellious group of trustees. How could Israel teach the world about faith in God when a majority of people in Israel refused to live by faith? So, Jesus, the Benefactor, terminated His covenant with the nation of Israel by pronouncing this benediction: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often [over the past 1,500 years] I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house [your nation] is left to you desolate [of God’s covenant, blessings and presence]. For I tell you, you will not see me [extending grace to this house ever] again until you [are forced by overwhelming circumstances to] say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord [at the Second Coming*].” (Matthew 23:37–39, insertions and italics mine, *See Matthew 26:64 and Revelation 1:7.)

A few days after Jesus terminated His covenant with the nation of Israel, He implemented a New Covenant (Luke 22:20) because Jesus wants the benefits of His gospel to go throughout the whole Earth. Now, the New Covenant differs from the Old Covenant in two critical ways.

First, instead of choosing a nation of people to serve as trustees of the gospel, the New Covenant opens the door and allows “whosoever will” to become a trustee of the gospel. In the New Covenant, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female (these distinctions had been important in the Old Covenant). (Romans 10:12)

Under the New Covenant, God approves every sinner who chooses to live by faith to serve as a trustee of the gospel of Jesus. Said another way, the Old Covenant pertained to a selected group of trustees, but the New Covenant pertains to a self-selecting group of trustees. One could also say that after Israel failed (Plan A), God created even a better covenant for those who would choose to participate in Plan B. (Romans 11:15, Hebrews 8:6) Keep in mind that a new covenant was required when the covenant with Israel was terminated because the plan of salvation operates as a living trust there is a Benefactor, trustees, and beneficiaries.

The second difference between the Old Covenant and New Covenant is profoundly important: The two covenants have different laws, different promises and different prophecies. Mixing or merging the terms and conditions of these two covenants will produce disastrous results. Millions of Protestants are hopelessly confused about Bible prophecy (including what will occur during the Great Tribulation) because pastors and theologians are mixing and merging the terms and conditions of the two covenants.

The prophecies and promises given to ancient Israel under the Old Covenant will not be fulfilled because God terminated that covenant with the nation of Israel. Even though God abandoned the nation of Israel as trustees, any Jew who surrenders to the gospel of Christ by faith in Him can receive salvation because the New Covenant does not distinguish between Jews and Gentiles. (Early Jewish converts understood this concept well. See Romans 11:23.)

Consider this: The Old Covenant does not say one word about the Second Coming because everything in the Old Covenant centers around the First Coming which was supposed to be the only coming! Had Israel been faithful to the terms and conditions of the Old Covenant, there would not be a Second Coming. Jesus would not have returned to Heaven and He would have established His kingdom on Earth just as John the Baptist predicted! (Mark 1:15)

Everything promised and prophesied in the Old Testament would have been fulfilled just as it was written in the Old Covenant if Israel had remained faithful as trustees and had accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah. The past 2,000 years of Earth’s history would be entirely different than we now know it if Israel had met the terms and conditions of the Old Covenant. Sadly, the Old Covenant had to be terminated because Israel persistently refused to cooperate with God and accomplish His objectives. Therefore, God made a New Covenant for those who are faithful to Him.

Israel Redefined Not Displaced
Given this discussion on the two covenants, you may be wondering what all of this has to do with modern Israel and the end of the world. Here is the point: When Jesus initiated the New Covenant, He created a self-selecting group of trustees who would choose to live by faith.

You might be surprised to learn that Jesus’ new trustees are also called “Israel” because He made three unconditional promises to Abraham. To fulfill these unconditional promises, Jesus had to redefine Israel; that is, Jesus redefined the “heirs of Abraham.” Consider this verse: “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed [the Greek word for seed is sperma], and [therefore] heirs according to the promise [that will be fulfilled at the appointed time].” (Galatians 3:29, insertion mine) “It is not as though God’s word had failed [when He established the New Covenant].

For not all who are descended from Israel
[Jacob] are [part of] Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, [biology means little to God. Faith means everything to God. This is why God said to Abraham] It is through Isaac [the son who was promised to you and Sarah, not Ishmael] that your offspring will be reckoned. In other words, it is not the natural [biological] children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise [like Isaac, those who live by faith] who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.” (Romans 9:6–8, insertions mine)

The Apostle James knew that Israel had been redefined because he calls the believers in Christ the twelve tribes of Israel. (See James 1:1 and 2:1.) Of course, current saints do not know which tribe is theirs, but this information will be clarified when the time comes for them to enter the Holy City.

(By the way, no one belonging to the Jewish race today knows their biological tribe of origin either. The Roman army destroyed all of Israel’s genealogical records in the first century A.D.) So, biological origin, temple services, sacrificial offerings, circumcision, and all of the Old Covenant terms and conditions mean nothing to God today. (Galatians 2–4, Romans 2:28–29, Hebrews 7–10) God has terminated the Old Covenant, with its promises and prophecies, and has declared it null and void because there is a New Covenant, a new group of trustees and new promises and prophecies.

Because the twelve tribes have been redefined, the 144,000 will come from all nations and religions. They are identified as the “twelve tribes” of Israel in Revelation 7 because the 144,000 will be people who have faith in God, just like Abraham and Jacob (also called Israel).

These people will love God with all their heart, mind and soul as Abraham and Jacob did. Carefully study this passage and notice how Jesus defines the issue of ancestry: “Abraham is our father, they answered. If you were Abraham’s children, said Jesus, then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. . . . You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire.” (John 8:39–44)

If our behavior reflects the faith of Abraham, God considers us children and heirs of Abraham. If our behavior reflects the rebellion of the devil, God considers us children of the devil.

Throughout the ages, the saints of God have been tested with persecution and the same holds true for the Great Tribulation. (Revelation 3:9; 12:17; 13:7) The Great Tribulation will separate people of faith from people of rebellion. Thus, in the end, all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26) because the Israel of God (the descendants of Abraham) consists only of people who have a faith in God like Abraham and Jacob.

When the Israel of God goes marching into New Jerusalem at the Second Coming, the twelve tribes will enter through their respective gates! (Revelation 21:12) Think about that glorious day! When the time arrives for all of Abraham’s children to enter into the Holy City, twelve great processions will form, and after marching through those pearly gates, a numberless group of “Jews” will gather around the throne of God and together as one man, they will bow down before Jesus, the Messiah, the eternal King of the Jews. (Mark 15:2, John 19:19–22)

A thousand years later, when the Holy City comes down from God out of Heaven and lands on Earth, the three unconditional promises made to Abraham will THEN be fulfilled. (1) The Holy City will physically encompass all of the land that was promised to the patriarch.

Abraham’s descendants will possess the land, and the Holy City will be their home throughout eternity. Incidentally, the Holy City, built by God Himself, is the city that Abraham anticipated. (Hebrews 11:10) (2) When the saints of all ages are gathered around God’s throne, Abraham’s heirs will be as numberless as the stars in the sky. They will come from all nations and religious backgrounds, and a “once childless” Abraham will rejoice as he looks over that vast throng.

Among the redeemed, Abraham will be known as “the father of the faithful.” (3) Last, there will be endless rejoicing throughout Heaven at the end of sin’s drama because the redeemed will realize that all nations were truly blessed with the gift of salvation through Abraham’s seed.

Jesus, the Lamb of God and the Lion from the tribe of Judah, will be eternally praised to the highest Heavens for the salvation that He so generously provided to all who were willing to live by faith. Thus, the three unconditional promises given to Abraham will be fulfilled.

The salient point is that in this marvelous drama, the modern nation of Israel is not in the picture. The establishment of modern Israel is no different than the recent establishment of Serbia. Neither event is prophetically significant.
Who says? Of course it does! I agree with Grip Docility. Listen to what Jack Hibbs says about Israel, he's a qualified and extremely biblical teacher.
 
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keras

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Anthropology, how much of that do people know?
What is the origins of the Western peoples?
Books on the origins of the human races or usually very obscure or have nothing about anything beyond that the Western people came from the Caucasus region. Then they jump to the earliest remains of humans in the African Rift Valley.
Rather a large gap between those two, a gap that remains shrouded to secular people, but can be filled in by Biblical history. How the Israelite people started with Jacob, then grew to many millions and occupied the holy Land, but they allowed other peoples to remain there, Judges 1:19-36 Those peoples infected the Israelites with their false religions and inter-marriage; eventually God threw both Israel; the ten Northern tribes and Judah; the two Southern tribes, into exile.

That exile was for a decreed time period, Ezekiel 4:4-6 and Judah has come back now, but in apostasy and they face punishment on the forthcoming Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Revelation 6:12-17, +
Israel still remains in exile and they have not yet rejoined, proved by what will happen when they do. Ezekiel 37
Note; in Jeremiah 31:21 how the people of Israel left waymarks, still seen today; the many dolmens across Europe, as they travelled to their final destinations of exile, around the world, where the Lord said He would bless and prosper them.

Many secular histories tell of great population migrations in ancient times even continuing today. It did happen, the Israelites did become as many as the sands of the sea, they did occupy the gates of their enemies, they DID accept the Gospel and become Christians. John 10:16....other sheep I have, who are not of this fold...
So God WILL fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs and His Israelite people, be they actual descendants of Jacob: people from every tribe, [of Israel[ race, nation and language; grafted in by their faith. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

This is the amazing secret of God, His hidden Plan to redeem Israel, His faithful people.
The prophecy of Ezekiel 20:32-38 is very informative, those who are of Israel who revolt and rebel, as the Jews have done, will not be allowed to live in the holy Land during the end times. Jeremiah 12:14
Another demolition of the impossible 'rapture' theory!
 
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jacob.austin

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Just curious why you think the Rapture is impossible. It's biblical to my knowledge.
Anthropology, how much of that do people know?
What is the origins of the Western peoples?
Books on the origins of the human races or usually very obscure or have nothing about anything beyond that the Western people came from the Caucasus region. Then they jump to the earliest remains of humans in the African Rift Valley.
Rather a large gap between those two, a gap that remains shrouded to secular people, but can be filled in by Biblical history. How the Israelite people started with Jacob, then grew to many millions and occupied the holy Land, but they allowed other peoples to remain there, Judges 1:19-36 Those peoples infected the Israelites with their false religions and inter-marriage; eventually God threw both Israel; the ten Northern tribes and Judah; the two Southern tribes, into exile.

That exile was for a decreed time period, Ezekiel 4:4-6 and Judah has come back now, but in apostasy and they face punishment on the forthcoming Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Revelation 6:12-17, +
Israel still remains in exile and they have not yet rejoined, proved by what will happen when they do. Ezekiel 37
Note; in Jeremiah 31:21 how the people of Israel left waymarks, still seen today; the many dolmens across Europe, as they travelled to their final destinations of exile, around the world, where the Lord said He would bless and prosper them.

Many secular histories tell of great population migrations in ancient times even continuing today. It did happen, the Israelites did become as many as the sands of the sea, they did occupy the gates of their enemies, they DID accept the Gospel and become Christians. John 10:16....other sheep I have, who are not of this fold...
So God WILL fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs and His Israelite people, be they actual descendants of Jacob: people from every tribe, [of Israel[ race, nation and language; grafted in by their faith. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

This is the amazing secret of God, His hidden Plan to redeem Israel, His faithful people.
The prophecy of Ezekiel 20:32-38 is very informative, those who are of Israel who revolt and rebel, as the Jews have done, will not be allowed to live in the holy Land during the end times. Jeremiah 12:14
Another demolition of the impossible 'rapture' theory!'
 
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keras

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Just curious why you think the Rapture is impossible. It's biblical to my knowledge.
We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians, who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers. Acts 20:29-31

There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't: John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, 1 Cor 1:7-9, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Jeremiah 25:29, Proverbs 10:30 Psalms 10:30, Psalms 37:29, Revelation 2:25-26

I am aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.
This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew: “Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath”.

What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on knowing the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.
There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, as followers of Jesus, the One true Israel, thru whom all the promises of God will be fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20
 
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Grip Docility

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We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians, who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers. Acts 20:29-31

There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't: John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, 1 Cor 1:7-9, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Jeremiah 25:29, Proverbs 10:30 Psalms 10:30, Psalms 37:29, Revelation 2:25-26

I am aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.
This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew: “Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath”.

What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on knowing the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.
There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, as followers of Jesus, the One true Israel, thru whom all the promises of God will be fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20
Don't take this as sarcasm... but have you ever read Thessalonians? I, mean, sure... the idea that God's people will be spared the pain of the end times, is no where in scripture.... but a snatching definitely occurs! It's literally given example in the record of Sodom's demise. God visits Abraham with two angels and snatches Lot, before dropping the bam.
 
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Grip Docility

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Do you desire to rejoice at this moment of agreement that we have found and wait until another time to further discussion, or are you enjoying the back and forth, fellow servant in Him?
 
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Aviel

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Do you desire to rejoice at this moment of agreement that we have found and wait until another time to further discussion, or are you enjoying the back and forth, fellow servant in Him?

To discuss something other then EZK 38/39? or The Book of The Revelation?

Something that Paul teaches, would be a good choice.

Jude?

The Trinity?

or Why Calvinism is mind blinding?
 
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Grip Docility

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To discuss something other then EZK 38/39? or The Book of The Revelation?

Something that Paul teaches, would be a good choice.

Jude?

The Trinity?

or Why Calvinism is mind blinding?
I... don't know... what you speak... of ... about a certain... ism... :tearsofjoy: :tearsofjoy: Shhhhhhh, They'll hear you!
 
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Grip Docility

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Who say

Who says? Of course it does! I agree with Grip Docility. Listen to what Jack Hibbs says about Israel, he's a qualified and extremely biblical teacher.
I try to avoid most external input in study, but cheers!... I'll give Jack Hibbs a listen.
 
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Grip Docility

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Who say

Who says? Of course it does! I agree with Grip Docility. Listen to what Jack Hibbs says about Israel, he's a qualified and extremely biblical teacher.
Oh boy, Jack Hibbs is following scriptural flow without refrain. He understands that Israel is the central focus of all prophecy! Wow, thank you for sharing this!
 
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Grip Docility

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Just curious why you think the Rapture is impossible. It's biblical to my knowledge.
Luke 21:36... snatched it from Hibbs! It goes well with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18! Awesome!
 
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jacob.austin

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Don't take this as sarcasm... but have you ever read Thessalonians? I, mean, sure... the idea that God's people will be spared the pain of the end times, is no where in scripture.... but a snatching definitely occurs! It's literally given example in the record of Sodom's demise. God visits Abraham with two angels and snatches Lot, before dropping the bam.
Agreed! I'm sorry, but the belief that the Rapture is unbiblical and heresy just isn't what the Bible teaches. And throughout the Bible, God saves his people from judgement. The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the eventual Rapture.
 
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Grip Docility

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Agreed! I'm sorry, but the belief that the Rapture is unbiblical and heresy just isn't what the Bible teaches. And throughout the Bible, God saves his people from judgement. The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the eventual Rapture.
I wouldn't call it outright Heresy... per say... but it is most definitely ignoring scriptural passages. I would reserve the term Heresy for any perversion of the Gospel that makes people doubt their salvation. The Anathema Paul speaks of... per say. But, the Rapture is just a matter of eschatology, which is VERY important, right now... cough cough.... Islam.
 
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keras

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Don't take this as sarcasm... but have you ever read Thessalonians? I, mean, sure... the idea that God's people will be spared the pain of the end times, is no where in scripture.... but a snatching definitely occurs! It's literally given example in the record of Sodom's demise. God visits Abraham with two angels and snatches Lot, before dropping the bam.
The gathering of His people at the Return, in 1 Thess and Matthew 24:31, is a transportation from wherever His faithful people are to where Jesus will be; Jerusalem. The precursor for this is how Philip was taken up and instantly snatched away to Azotus, where he preached the Gospel. Acts 8:39-40

I wrote this article in 2010:

THE RAPTURE – when will it happen?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 This is a word from the Lord; those of His people who are still alive when the Lord comes, will have no advantage over those who have died.
...when Gods trumpet sounds and Jesus descends from heaven, firstly the Christian dead will rise, then we who are still alive will join them.
Thus, we shall always be with the Lord.
[on the earth]

Zechariah 14:4-5 On that Day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.....the Lord will appear, attended by all His holy ones.
His holy ones: The angel armies of heaven; Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

Scripture reads clearly – the so called rapture is actually just a gathering, which will occur when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Great Tribulation.
The doctrine that His “church” people are simply waiting to be whisked away into heaven tends to produce a carefree and careless attitude in those awaiting Christ’s Return. Tragically, millions are now being set up to ‘simply believe in Jesus and don’t worry about anything else”. This is short-sighted, irresponsible thinking.
Many verses show that Christianity involves active effort, at the very least “watch and pray always”.

Many of the Bible’s greatest prophecies culminate in the Return of Jesus. This will be the most wonderful event that the world has seen, but what precedes it will be very different – terrible disasters and tribulations will engulf every society. It will take great trust and faith in Gods power to hold steady until the end.
Luke 18:8 When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

God wants you to rely on Him, to trust Him completely. In the near future , when others are gripped by fear, uncertainty and confusion and have no idea of where to turn to for answers, God does not want His people to agonise over what may happen next.

Luke 21:18-19 Not a hair of your head will be lost. By standing firm you will win yourselves life.

Revelation 13:10 ..... this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of Gods people.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear.... the son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He shall send His angels with the sound of the great trumpet, and they shall gather His faithful people from heaven, [the souls of the martyrs] and the four corners of the earth. [every person who kept their trust in God]

Daniel 7:27 The kingly power and sovereignty of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their power will last forever and every realm will serve and obey them.
Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses abridged
 
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