Israel-Hamas Thread II

truthpls

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We see it as common sense today from a 21st century mindset.
No. Some of us see sharing the land as common sense.
But that is a change from history. Because that is not how it used to be. It's a fallicy to put up on history our morals and thought of today. You can't go back and if you did you'd probably be put in chains. War was the way and in many ways still is when it comes to getting land and holding it. People didn't live peacefully with each other. The Native Americans were as barbaric and warlike as any European.
Some wars in history are hated by people. The mass killings by Germany, Stalin etc. People usually cringe when talking about the killing fields of Cambodia or Rwanda, the internment camps in Germany etc. Using something like the Napoleonic wars as an excuse for what happened in Rwanda would be farcical. The same holds true if you tried to use the battles of Alexander the Great with the mass murdering in Gaza.
The Arabs have been warlike throughout their history and still are today in many areas. Russia is attempting to seize land they believe is theirs through war.
That does not excuse killing aid workers or children on purpose. Yes, tens of thousands of women and children were and are being killed on purpose. You don't get to say you bombed a city because they may have been a terrorist in a basement there.
It may be better to live peacefully but that's not the way of history and will never be attained in this world.
Alexander the Great did not move into a Roman suburb and start wiping them out and killing their kids etc. He used an army to attack other armies.
The Anti-Christ brings unity to this planet through war and power.
Also through deception, lies, Satanic power, and peace. The issue with Israel is that many claim that God gave them the land already, or protects them or is somehow with them.
Christ returns and brings war with him and seizes control and brings peace.
Not really. The possessed wicked enemies gather to try and fight Jesus and He wipes them all out. Not a war in any real sense of the word. More like killing a fly.
Peace in this world is only maintained through the power of the sword.
There is no peace to maintain. The ones who are supposed to protect people have abrogated their duty to a large extent in many places such as Canada and the USA. The foxes are in charge of the henhouses. What is increasingly maintained by force is wicked people and wickedness and an assault on children and people. Lawlessness increases more and more.
 
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rjs330

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No. Some of us see sharing the land as common sense.
Yes from a 31st century mindset. And the Arabs had their own land. And did nothing but hate on the Jews.
Some wars in history are hated by people. The mass killings by Germany, Stalin etc. People usually cringe when talking about the killing fields of Cambodia or Rwanda, the internment camps in Germany etc. Using something like the Napoleonic wars as an excuse for what happened in Rwanda would be farcical. The same holds true if you tried to use the battles of Alexander the Great with the mass murdering in Gaza.
War is pretty much always hated by the loser. But the point is it's been a part of human History since history has been a thing. It's how nations have been formed. It's how humans have done it through the eons. I attack you and take your land. Then someone else attacks me and takes mine. Then after a while another party comes along and takes it from them. War has always been seen as a way to get land and nation building. Yes we certainly will cringe today and back throughout history those being attacked didn't like it. But then they probably had taken it from someone else and where fine with it. That's humanity for you. I'll attack you and take your stuff because I'm good with that, but do y you dare and attack me and my stuff. It's a newer centuries mindset to say, you know what, maybe we shouldn't be taking anyone's stuff.
That does not excuse killing aid workers or children on purpose. Yes, tens of thousands of women and children were and are being killed on purpose. You don't get to say you bombed a city because they may have been a terrorist in a basement there.
Well if you are hiding or aiding a terrorist that's what happens. No not all the killings have been against terrorists or their supporters. But when terrorists or supporters are hiding among the populace with nothing to identify them as such this kind of thing is going to happen in a theater of war. It's not good, it would be great if it didn't happen, but does and I while I think it's very sad that children die, lost souls. The ones to blame are not the Jews. They didn't start it. And it was those very same children who were being taught to hate and murder the Jews. What do you think they would have grown up to be after 12 years of that? Instead of being taught how to grow an economy and live in peace, they are taught the art of war and death. They see the tickets being launched. They watch and join the cheering as dead Jews are dragged through the streets.

The purpose of armies and war is to kill people and break things. And keep killing people and breaking things until the enemy surrenders. Israel should keep it up. Because if you send in your army which purpose is to kill people and break things and then act shocked and dismayed that the army is killing people and breaking things, then that's irresponsible. It's foolish and ridiculous. You let the army do what's necessary to cause the surrender of your enemy. And if they don't then that's on them. Every single war in the history of the world was run this way. Well at least up until the 20th century when politicians started getting involved and didn't want the army killing people and breaking things until the enemy surrendered.
Alexander the Great did not move into a Roman suburb and start wiping them out and killing their kids etc. He used an army to attack other armies
That's because the Romans had an army to fight. They didn't run around their cities in civilian array attacking Alexander from schools and peoples houses and hospitals.
Also through deception, lies, Satanic power, and peace. The issue with Israel is that many claim that God gave them the land already, or protects them or is somehow with them.
Glad you agree that war is used to bring bout the peace. God did give them the land in perpetuity. And neither you nor I know what God has done to protect them.
Not really. The possessed wicked enemies gather to try and fight Jesus and He wipes them all out. Not a war in any real sense of the word. More like killing a fly.
Yes it's a war. A war doesn't have to be even to be called a war. They anti-Christ and the armies of this world make war on the Lamb and he wipes them out. He doesn't make peace with them.
There is no peace to maintain. The ones who are supposed to protect people have abrogated their duty to a large extent in many places such as Canada and the USA. The foxes are in charge of the henhouses. What is increasingly maintained by force is wicked people and wickedness and an assault on children and people. Lawlessness increases more and more.
While I agree on many of your points the peace I refer to is peace from attack from other nations. Germany, England, France etc are at peace from attacks from hostile nations much due to the armies and weaponry they and the US have. Peace is maintained by the knowledge that if someone attacks them there will be great war visited upon them. Something the Palestinians should have known. Russia attacked Ukraine because they knew the other nations would stay out it. There was no threat of the armies of the world coming against them. Peace is maintained by the power of the sword.

Dont get me wrong. I'm not trying to say that wat is great and we all ought to do it. I'm trying to say that war has been the way people have taken land and built nations throughout history. It's how Israel was built.
 
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JosephZ

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The purpose of armies and war is to kill people and break things. And keep killing people and breaking things until the enemy surrenders.
The purpose of an army is to serve and protect the citizens of the state and to defend the state from both domestic and foreign enemies. The aim of war is to destroy an enemy's military capabilities and create an environment in which they are no longer a threat or can no longer function, and these objectives can be achieved by various means and often without killing people.

Peace is maintained by the power of the sword.
Peace is best maintained through diplomacy and having well-established customs and rules of law.

the Jews also are themselves as having deep historical ties and they have the greater claim. It's the Arabs that were the occupiers.
What would you do if the native Americans started moving to and occupying your state in large numbers and eventually demanded that you and your family move out because it was their ancestral land? Would you resist and try to keep your land and home, or would you just pack up and leave?
 
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truthpls

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Yes from a 31st century mindset. And the Arabs had their own land. And did nothing but hate on the Jews.
They had Israel and there were not that many Jews to hate there
War is pretty much always hated by the loser.
War is not an issue in Gaza. Slaughter is.
But the point is it's been a part of human History since history has been a thing. It's how nations have been formed. It's how humans have done it through the eons. I attack you and take your land. Then someone else attacks me and takes mine. Then after a while another party comes along and takes it from them. War has always been seen as a way to get land and nation building. Yes we certainly will cringe today and back throughout history those being attacked didn't like it. But then they probably had taken it from someone else and where fine with it. That's humanity for you. I'll attack you and take your stuff because I'm good with that, but do y you dare and attack me and my stuff. It's a newer centuries mindset to say, you know what, maybe we shouldn't be taking anyone's stuff.
Whether or not thefts occur it does not make it right. In the situation of a minority moving into a majority Arab area, they should think twice about stealing land and being unwelcome there. I would suggest that the Christian Palestinians that lost their lands and were killed should be a red flag for world Christians as well.
Well if you are hiding or aiding a terrorist that's what happens.
In the example I cited I said 'maybe' a terrorist was hiding somewhere in the city. Blowing up the city and starving people is NOT what should happen.
No not all the killings have been against terrorists or their supporters. But when terrorists or supporters are hiding among the populace with nothing to identify them as such this kind of thing is going to happen in a theater of war. It's not good, it would be great if it didn't happen, but does and I while I think it's very sad that children die, lost souls. The ones to blame are not the Jews.
It doesn't matter who is hiding! If real criminals are hiding then either find them, or stay home.Don't blow up people wholesale in a demonic rage that you can't kill the actual criminal.
They didn't start it. And it was those very same children who were being taught to hate and murder the Jews. What do you think they would have grown up to be after 12 years of that? Instead of being taught how to grow an economy and live in peace, they are taught the art of war and death. They see the tickets being launched. They watch and join the cheering as dead Jews are dragged through the streets.
Babies did not 'start it' either. Why starve and kill and punish a population??
The purpose of armies and war is to kill people and break things. And keep killing people and breaking things until the enemy surrenders. Israel should keep it up. Because if you send in your army which purpose is to kill people and break things and then act shocked and dismayed that the army is killing people and breaking things, then that's irresponsible. It's foolish and ridiculous. You let the army do what's necessary to cause the surrender of your enemy. And if they don't then that's on them. Every single war in the history of the world was run this way. Well at least up until the 20th century when politicians started getting involved and didn't want the army killing people and breaking things until the enemy surrendered.
There are also war criminals.
That's because the Romans had an army to fight. They didn't run around their cities in civilian array attacking Alexander from schools and peoples houses and hospitals.
Exactly. Nor did Alexander stop food and travel and employment etc etc from nations as a rule.
Glad you agree that war is used to bring bout the peace. God did give them the land in perpetuity. And neither you nor I know what God has done to protect them.
No! He WILL give them the land as promised forever. AFTER they get saved in the end. Not now. It is not theirs any more than God is theirs. In fact they kill His children there.
Yes it's a war. A war doesn't have to be even to be called a war. They anti-Christ and the armies of this world make war on the Lamb and he wipes them out. He doesn't make peace with them.
He tries to. He reaches out today for them to repent and not fight Him and die. He reaches out even in the tribulation with angels and witnesses etc.
While I agree on many of your points the peace I refer to is peace from attack from other nations. Germany, England, France etc are at peace from attacks from hostile nations much due to the armies and weaponry they and the US have. Peace is maintained by the knowledge that if someone attacks them there will be great war visited upon them. Something the Palestinians should have known. Russia attacked Ukraine because they knew the other nations would stay out it. There was no threat of the armies of the world coming against them. Peace is maintained by the power of the sword.
There was no peace maintained in the West Bank and Gaza any more than we would say peace is maintained in a prison by guards. Denying people freedoms and wealth and travel and etc etc etc etc etc etc is not peace. It is festering a simmering hatred that is bound to explode.
Dont get me wrong. I'm not trying to say that wat is great and we all ought to do it. I'm trying to say that war has been the way people have taken land and built nations throughout history. It's how Israel was built.
I am saying war is not what is going on. It is genocide, slaughter, starvation, cruelty, terrorism. Etc
 
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Valletta

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There was no peace maintained in the West Bank and Gaza any more than we would say peace is maintained in a prison by guards. Denying people freedoms and wealth and travel and etc etc etc etc etc etc is not peace. It is festering a simmering hatred that is bound to explode.
The people of Gaza were given aid from the world, they received cement to build buildings and pipes for new plumbing. They used the cement to build tunnels and pipes to build rockets. What a life they could be enjoying with all of the humanitarian donations and help, but over 70% supported the horrible massacre of Jews, they they took the help and used it for evil.
 
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Philip_B

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The people of Gaza were given aid from the world, they received cement to build buildings and pipes for new plumbing. They used the cement to build tunnels and pipes to build rockets. What a life they could be enjoying with all of the humanitarian donations and help, but over 70% supported the horrible massacre of Jews, they they took the help and used it for evil.
And I wonder how much of these bold assertions could be verified? I am not seeking to demonise either side of this conflict. I recognise that the residents of the Gaza Strip are probably not looking fondly to Israel for help at the moment, and Israel has all the help it needs from the USA.
 
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JosephZ

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over 70% supported the horrible massacre of Jews,
This is not true. If you will recall, I showed you earlier in the thread that the reason for the high percentage of Palestinians who support the October 7th attack is not because they approve of the atrocities that took place; it's because of the attention it brought to their plight. Only 20% of those polled were even aware that Hamas committed atrocities on October 7th. The same pollster also found that 78% of Palestinians (84% in the West Bank and 68% in Gaza) believe that attacks on or the killing of civilians in their homes are war crimes.
 
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Valletta

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This is not true. If you will recall, I showed you earlier in the thread that the reason for the high percentage of Palestinians who support the October 7th attack is not because they approve of the atrocities that took place; it's because of the attention it brought to their plight. Only 20% of those polled were even aware that Hamas committed atrocities on October 7th. The same pollster also found that 78% of Palestinians (84% in the West Bank and 68% in Gaza) believe that attacks on or the killing of civilians in their homes are war crimes.
Even in Britain most Muslims are in denial about murder and atrocities being committed, where again, according to polling, about a third of Muslims in Britain admit they want Sharia law. Now is that because they don't consider the killing of Jews to be murder? As Europe has found out, and the U.S. is learning, there is a radicalized section of Muslims that does not want to assimilate into the culture. The Biden administration and the many Democrats who support it are making a huge mistake for our future by letting in those who hate America and wish to tear it down and remake it, no matter what their religion.
 
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truthpls

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The people of Gaza were given aid from the world, they received cement to build buildings and pipes for new plumbing. They used the cement to build tunnels and pipes to build rockets. What a life they could be enjoying with all of the humanitarian donations and help, but over 70% supported the horrible massacre of Jews, they they took the help and used it for evil.
Don't worry how people spent their welfare checks and think that gives and excuse to wipe them out
 
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rjs330

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The purpose of an army is to serve and protect the citizens of the state and to defend the state from both domestic and foreign enemies. The aim of war is to destroy an enemy's military capabilities and create an environment in which they are no longer a threat or can no longer function, and these objectives can be achieved by various means and often without killing people.
Throughout history that's demonstrably false. You don't have war without a military generally speaking. That is the purpose of an army. Sometimes it is to protect and other times it's not. It's purpose to kill people and break things until your enemy surrenders or us utterly destroyed. The army has been used to invade as well as defend. It's demonstrably true.
Peace is best maintained through diplomacy and having well-established customs and rules of law.
Well it may be best maintained that way. But we know it's not really maintained that way. That's why we have NATO. It isn't to just crate a diplomatic mission. It's purpose was to provide the military might to preserve the peace.
What would you do if the native Americans started moving to and occupying your state in large numbers and eventually demanded that you and your family move out because it was their ancestral land? Would you resist and try to keep your land and home, or would you just pack up and leave?
You see, this is another example of the facts I've given you. It actually a good example. We took the land by force and held it. And we hold onto it by the power of the sword.

However the mistake you make is comparing this with the Palestinians. You see the land was never theirs. It was the Jews, the Romans the Ottomans and the Britains. Now the Jews have it again. If the Palestinians could beat the Jews they could lay claim to it, but the Jews have the military that will kill you and break things in order to prevent that.
 
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truthpls

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However the mistake you make is comparing this with the Palestinians. You see the land was never theirs.
Yes it was. They had homes and groves and lands there. Christians Palestinians as well. They were forced out. How many 'Ottomans' do you think lived in Israel in 1947?
 
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rjs330

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In the example I cited I said 'maybe' a terrorist was hiding somewhere in the city.
You know this how? Where you there with them?
It doesn't matter who is hiding! If real criminals are hiding then either find them, or stay home.Don't blow up people wholesale in a demonic rage that you can't kill the actual criminal.
This isn't a police action. This is a war. Two different things.

Rather than going over each of your points let me just say, this is a war the Palestine started. And they should have thought about the consequences of their actions before hand. I've heard it said many times, they knew Israel would do this. Well if they knew and did it anyway well who's the stupid ones. You can't do what they did and then when the enemy response with overwhelming force start crying "unfair!". This isn't grade school where you can just call a time out.
are also war criminals.
There always are.
No! He WILL give them the land as promised forever. AFTER they get saved in the end. Not now. It is not theirs any more than God is theirs. In fact they kill His children there
Nope, that's not what it says.
 
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DaisyDay

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The Arabs have been warlike throughout their history and still are today in many areas. Russia is attempting to seize land they believe is theirs through war.
Much the same as other peoples. But Arabs have also been a major force for stability as trade does best in a stable world and the Arabs were great traders and merchants.

Yes from a 31st century mindset.
Prophecy? Or typo?

And the Arabs had their own land. And did nothing but hate on the Jews.
That is untrue.
 
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JosephZ

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That is the purpose of an army.
You are confusing purpose with individual missions, tasks, and means. The purpose of an army is to serve and protect the citizens of the state and to defend the state from both domestic and foreign enemies.

Sometimes it is to protect and other times it's not.
And sometimes it's to conduct rescue operations and provide natural disaster relief, medical assistance in impoverished areas, food and humanitarian relief, security at embassies and other locations, policing in volatile areas, and helping to rebuild after conflict and natural and manmade disasters. All of these examples of tasks and missions of a military go towards its purpose to serve and protect the citizens of the state and elsewhere while also maintaining peace and stability at home and abroad.

It's purpose to kill people and break things until your enemy surrenders or us utterly destroyed.
The only people you will hear saying this are politicians and pundits who have never served in the military, and warmongers.

That's why we have NATO. It isn't to just crate a diplomatic mission. It's purpose was to provide the military might to preserve the peace.
The pupose of NATO is to guarantee the freedom and security of its members. This is done by various means with the use of military force being only one of many.

I am referring to the descendents of the promise. The covenant God made with Abraham for the land.
While God gave the land to the Jews they had to march in and take it, with his help. God even used other countries to come in and take it from them.
You see the land was never theirs. It was the Jews, the Romans the Ottomans and the Britains. Now the Jews have it again.
This may come as a suprise to you, but not all of the land promised was given to the Jews, only a small portion was.

Abraham, his son Isaac, and his grandson Jacob (Israel) were not Jews. Jews were the descendants of Isreal's son Judah and those who belonged to the kingdom of Judah. The Kingdom of Judea covered only a small fraction of the land that makes up the modern state of Isreal. If you want to know the boundaries of the land that God specifically gave to the decendants of Judea (the Jews), Joshua 15:1–12 outlines them.

Below are a couple of maps that show the land that belonged to the Kingdom of Judea, one with the borders of the state of Israel and one without.

judea 2.jpg
judea.jpg
 
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truthpls

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You know this how? Where you there with them?
How would someone be in an example? The point you avoid is that whether or not a criminal was hiding under a city, you may not blow up the people, starve them, and stop health care, etc. You either stay home or go in and find the criminal.
This isn't a police action. This is a war. Two different things.
Says you. A war means both sides have armies and weapons. The women and children and population they are punishing have nothing. Remember, Hamas probably also claims their terrorism is war.
Rather than going over each of your points let me just say, this is a war the Palestine started.
The Palestine?? Babies and women did not war with Israel. Places like Iran supplied the help for the militant folks there to fight. I see that rather than attack an actual country like Iran, they have bombed more civilians in a consulate to try and drag the US directly in to fight their battles for them, and not just pay for them!
And they should have thought about the consequences of their actions before hand.
Sure, a newborn baby should have written up all the benefits of crawling to Israel and attacking someone. Right. The women shopping should have exchanged their grocery lists for war plans where all the women take their babies and children and throw rotten tomatoes over the barbed wire fence etc. Not realistic, and more blaming the victims. It reminds me of WW2 Germany.
I've heard it said many times, they knew Israel would do this. Well if they knew and did it anyway well who's the stupid ones.
If a prisoner finally decides to try an escape before they die, knowing what happens if they are caught, that does not make them 'stupid' so much as desperate. Almost all the people murdered and starved are not the 'they' who attacked Israel anyhow, obviously.
You can't do what they did and then when the enemy response with overwhelming force start crying "unfair!". This isn't grade school where you can just call a time out.
"They" are not the people who are being punished collectively. The 'they' who attacked were killed the same day, and the rest of them vanished and could not be targeted, so they targeted babies instead, and civilians. Real brave.
 
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truthpls

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The Biden administration needs to reverse course and cut off all money to Iran.
"Critics describe MEMRI as a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group that, in spite of describing itself as being "independent" and "non-partisan" in nature,[6][7][8] aims to portray the Arab world and the Muslim world in a negative light by producing and disseminating incomplete or inaccurate translations of the original versions of the media reports that it re-publishes.[9][10] It has also been accused of selectively focusing on the views of Islamic extremists while de-emphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions.[11]"


Looking at who heads and founded this group, obviously we would not look here at all for any truth on the middle east. Is this the organization that claimed what you posted?
 
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JosephZ

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It appears Iran's retaliation for Israel's attack on the Iranian consulate in Damascus has begun.

Iran launched drone attack on Israel, U.S. and Israel officials say

Iran launched dozens of drones against Israel on Saturday night local time, four U.S. and Israeli officials told Axios.

It is the first time Iran launched an attack from its soil against Israel. It's unclear what the targets are.



It will take approximately 8 to 9 hours for these drones to reach Israel. Iran also has cruise missiles that can reach Israel in 2 hours and ballistic missiles that can reach Israel in less than 15 minutes.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-is...hat-are-irans-missile-and-drone-capabilities/
What are Iran’s missile and drone capabilities?

Report says ballistic missiles fired from Iran would take 12 minutes to reach Israel, cruise missiles would take two hours, and drones would reach targets in nine hours
 
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Valletta

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It appears Iran's retaliation for Israel's attack on the Iranian consulate in Damascus has begun.

Iran launched drone attack on Israel, U.S. and Israel officials say

Iran launched dozens of drones against Israel on Saturday night local time, four U.S. and Israeli officials told Axios.

It is the first time Iran launched an attack from its soil against Israel. It's unclear what the targets are.



It will take approximately 8 to 9 hours for these drones to reach Israel. Iran also has cruise missiles that can reach Israel in 2 hours and ballistic missiles that can reach Israel in less than 15 minutes.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-is...hat-are-irans-missile-and-drone-capabilities/
What are Iran’s missile and drone capabilities?

Report says ballistic missiles fired from Iran would take 12 minutes to reach Israel, cruise missiles would take two hours, and drones would reach targets in nine hours
That's just an excuse, Iran has been behind numerous attacks on Israel. I expect Israel will take out Iran's nuclear weapons capability.
 
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