Is the date of the crucifixion off like the date of Christmas?

[returntosender]

By months?

 

[returntosender]

Both subjects are of the highest priority so you'd think after all this time they'd get it right.

 

[HTacianas]

Both subjects are of the highest priority so you'd think after all this time they'd get it right.

Christmas is its own thing but the date of the crucifixion was originally fixed at the Jewish Passover. The Jews have always used a lunar calendar while the Church adopted the solar calendar. But then the Western Church adopted the Gregorian calendar while the Eastern Church continued to use the Julian calendar. Easter is celebrated on the same day each year, it's only a matter of how the date is selected and which calendar is used.

 

[returntosender]

Christmas is its own thing but the date of the crucifixion was originally fixed at the Jewish Passover. The Jews have always used a lunar calendar while the Church adopted the solar calendar. But then the Western Church adopted the Gregorian calendar while the Eastern Church continued to use the Julian calendar. Easter is celebrated on the same day each year, it's only a matter of how the date is selected and which calendar is used.
Goodness

 

[timothyu]

Might be more important to remember Jesus had His last supper on a Wednesday as He wouldn't be around for the Passover meal, and died on a Thursday the day before Passover as this was the traditional day to slaughter the sacrificial lambs. There were two sabbaths back to back,

on the Friday and the regular Sabbath on the Saturday. Jesus was executed the day before both.

 

[returntosender]

Might be more important to remember Jesus had His last supper on a Wednesday as He wouldn't be around for the Passover meal, and died on a Thursday the day before Passover as this was the traditional day to slaughter the sacrificial lambs. There were two sabbaths back to back, View attachment 344737 on the Friday and the regular Sabbath on the Saturday. Jesus was executed the day before both.

Oh my goodness !

 

[returntosender]

Oh my goodness !

You all are so well informed, thank you very much.
Happy Good Friday and easter!

 

[timothyu]

You all are so well informed, thank you very much.
Happy Good Friday and easter!

I'm no different than you or anyone in ability. I prefer not to blindly accept tradition which also gave us Wise Men at a stable or perhaps ham at Easter, and so on.
A blessed Resurrection to you too.

 

[ViaCrucis]

By months?

The date of Christmas isn't off. It's celebrated on the date it is supposed to be celebrated.

In the 3rd century some Christian thinkers talked about when Jesus was born, it was a topic of curiosity. At the time there was no explicit feast day that celebrated His birth, instead the Feast of the Epiphany (also called the Theophany) was a more all-purpose feast where Christians focused on the Incarnation. The central focus of the Epiphany was Jesus' baptism, but it came to include more aspects of His earthly life (whereas the Paschal Season was focused on His passion, death, and resurrection).

When Jesus was crucified wasn't debated, because the when was pretty clear: it was on Passover. Of course the Jewish calendar and the Roman calendar are different calendars, so the Jewish calendar which was lunar, and the Roman calendar which was solar, meant Nisan 14th changed year to year in relation to the Roman calendar. At some point Christians came to regard that, in the particular year Jesus was crucified, Passover coincided with with the Vernal Equinox, or March 25th.

So when Christians were trying to figure out certain questions, like when Jesus was born, they assumed He had been crucified on March 25th, which was also Nisan 14th on the Jewish calendar that year.

There was, at the same time, a sense that since Jesus was perfect, His mortal life-span was also perfect. Meaning that He died on the same day He was born. This led some to believe that Jesus was born on a March 25th. Some others, however, argued that Jesus was conceived on March 25th, and thus would have been born 9 months later, well add 9 months to March 25th and you get December 25th.

We don't see the Feast of Christmas itself celebrated until the 4th century. The earliest attestation is a Chronograph dated to the mid 4th century, basically a fancy calendar. And it lists December 25th as the Feast of Christ's Nativity. So at this time, the Christians around Rome were celebrating Christ's nativity on their liturgical calendar on December 25th.

Other Christians, as noted, tended to include the Nativity as part of the meaning of Epiphany, this continued to be the case in other areas of the Christian world. Which is why even to this day the Armenian Church continues to celebrate Christ's Nativity on January 6th, on Epiphany; never having adopted the December 25th date as the rest of the Church did.

For most of Christian history the Feast of the Nativity was considered a somewhat minor feast on the Liturgical Calendar. The two major Feasts, as it had been before Christmas was added to the calendar, were Pascha (aka "Easter") and Epiphany. This isn't to say that Christmas wasn't important, it's just that it wasn't as important as these two other feast times.

Christmas has slowly become a bigger deal on the Western calendar largely only in the last couple centuries, and this is in large part due to the influence of Britain and America; where Christmas has expanded into a full-blown cultural explosion. And that's been exported around the world. Anglo-American Christmas traditions, which are themselves a hodgepodge of various traditions (especially Dutch and German) has become what it looks like today.

But the celebration of the Feast of Christ's Nativity has been a standard of the Christian liturgical calendar since ancient times.

We have no idea when Jesus was born; but Christmas really isn't about that. It may have began with questions about when He was born, but we don't celebrate Christmas because that's "Jesus' birthday" in the same way that we celebrate your or my birthdays on the anniversary of the actual date we were born. Instead Christmas is a liturgical celebration, it's not about WHEN but THAT He was born.

As far as the Paschal Season, including Good Friday, that is all determined by the Paschal Computus, the official method of determining when to celebrate Pascha/Easter. This was established and standardized at the Council of Nicea in 325. As different parts of the Christian world used different computational methods, it meant that different communities of Christians were often celebrating the Feast on slightly different times. The Council of Nicea addressed that as a side issue, and the method of computation was established, and it's what we still use today.

We actually have a pretty good record of time-keeping over the last couple thousand years. We are still using, essentially, the same calendar that was being used two millennia go. The Julian Calendar was the reform of the Roman Calendar under Julius Caesar, the Eastern Churches still use the Julian Calendar, (either un-changed, or using a slightly reformed version of it). The Western Churches have all adopted the calendar reforms of Pope Gregory XIII, which we call the Gregorian Calendar. Because of this we know what sorts of calendarial drift occurred, and have accounted for it. The Gregorian Calendar is actually incredibly clever, where as the Julian Calendar did help fix the problems of the Roman calendar, it still resulted in a calendar drift that means that there is a 13 day difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars today. Today is April 5th on the Gregorian Calendar, but it is March 23rd on the Julian Calendar.

So no, it's not going to be months off.

This means that both the Paschal and Christmas seasons are celebrated correctly, according to the way they are meant to be, as established historically through Christian practice. The only real differences are that some churches use the Gregorian calendar, and some use the Julian.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[returntosender]

Someone said it was January ,7th

 

[Miles]

The original date of Easter can be determined through its relation to Passover. The timing of Jesus' crucifixion is well documented in the Bible.

My understanding is that a group early Christians wanted to disentangle it from the Jewish celebration. Hence, the referencing of other calendars etc. Although there was some controversy regarding when the Easter celebration should fall, we do know when Jesus was crucified.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Someone said it was January ,7th

Orthodox Christmas currently occurs on the Gregorian date of January 7th, but Gregorian January 7th is (currently) the same as Julian December 25th. Because, at the moment, there is a 13 day difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars, that drift will continue. In a century, that drift will have increased to 14 days, so that Orthodox Christmas will fall on the Gregorian date of January 8th--but it will still be December 25th on the Julian calendar.

The calendar reforms Pope Gregory XIII enacted was primarily these:

1) Modifying the leap year rule from every four years, to every four years only when the year is divisible by 4 and 400. That means century years are usually NOT leap years, so the year 1900 was NOT a leap year, but the year 2000 was.

2) Accounting for the day drift between the Julian calendar since its institution and the natural solar year by eliminating ten days from the calendar in the year the reform went into effect. This means that in 1582, October 4th was followed by October 15th. In 1582 there was no October 5th, or 6th, etc, 10 days were simply eliminated in order to bring the calendar back into alignment with the solar year.

So in the 16th century there was a 10 day difference, but that drift has continued, which is why it is 13 days now between the Julian and Gregorian calendars, and why the drift will continue. The Gregorian calendar is much better at keeping the calendar year in line with the natural solar year--it's not perfect, but it will take an insane amount of time for the Gregorian calendar to de-sync from the natural solar year when compared to the Julian calendar. The Gregorian calendar won't de-sync for another almost three thousand years, by the year 5000 the Gregorian calendar will be off by a single day--but on that timescale it's virtually something not to worry about. And can easily be accounted for in the future--assuming the use of the Gregorian calendar lasts that long.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Might be more important to remember Jesus had His last supper on a Wednesday as He wouldn't be around for the Passover meal, and died on a Thursday the day before Passover as this was the traditional day to slaughter the sacrificial lambs. There were two sabbaths back to back, View attachment 344737 on the Friday and the regular Sabbath on the Saturday. Jesus was executed the day before both.

The Gospels say Jesus was crucified on the Sabbath preparation, the day before the Sabbath, aka Friday before sunset. The Gospels also say that, as of the Sunday when He rose, it had been three days since He was executed--in other words on a Friday.

The Last Supper was on a Thursday.
The crucifixion was on a Friday.
The resurrection was on a Sunday.

We would have to ignore what the Gospels themselves attest in order to arrive at any other possibility.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Studyman]

Might be more important to remember Jesus had His last supper on a Wednesday as He wouldn't be around for the Passover meal, and died on a Thursday the day before Passover as this was the traditional day to slaughter the sacrificial lambs. There were two sabbaths back to back, View attachment 344737 on the Friday and the regular Sabbath on the Saturday. Jesus was executed the day before both.

It is great that you are studying this. And you are close, as clearly there were two sabbaths that week. But you didn't account for Mary looking for and purchasing Spices for the buried Christ. The Last supper was in the Evening, after the sun went down on Tues. (Beginning of Passover) Jesus was betrayed that night, after the meal and was tried the next day, Wednesday, Passover day. He was killed, and they wanted His body removed and placed in a Tomb before the First Day of Unleavened Bread, which started on sundown Wed. night. Thursday was a high sabbath, first day of Unleavened bread, no spices purchased yet. Friday, Mary went to secure Spices for the body of Christ. Friday night, to Sat. night sundown Mary observed the 2nd sabbath that week. After the Sabbath Sat. night, after the Sun went down, She went to the Grave and HE was already gone.

So 3 days, Thur., Fri., Sat., 3 Nights, Wed. night, Thur. night, Friday Night. He rose just before Sundown on Saturday night as He told us. 3 days and 3 nights in the ground.

If you extrapolate a Thursday Night burial, then there would be 3 nights, Thur, Fri, and Sat. and 3 days, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, rising just before Sundown on Sunday night.

Remember, Passover starts at sundown on Tuesday night that year. Jesus had supper with His Disciples in the Evening. A Passover supper. Jesus didn't have Supper with them on Wednesday Evening because HE was already killed. I have seen this timeline you used before, but it can't be true unless you believe the Disciples didn't have Passover Supper "With Jesus" and you must also believe Mary went to town to purchase Spices on a High Sabbath.

It is so good you are looking into this though, as there are so many deceptions promoted by this world's religions. The Truth of God shall set us free.

Good for you.

 

[Studyman]

The Gospels say Jesus was crucified on the Sabbath preparation, the day before the Sabbath, aka Friday before sunset. The Gospels also say that, as of the Sunday when He rose, it had been three days since He was executed--in other words on a Friday.

The Last Supper was on a Thursday.
The crucifixion was on a Friday.
The resurrection was on a Sunday.

We would have to ignore what the Gospels themselves attest in order to arrive at any other possibility.

-CryptoLutheran

To promote this popular Catholic philosophy, one must completely ignore God's Law of Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread, as well as the Christ's Own Words regarding His Own Prophesied Death. The First Day of Unleavened bread and the Last day of the 7 day feast, being High Sabbaths. I understand it is Catholic tradition to promote a 1 Sabbath Week that week. But if a person reads what is actually written, it is clear that timothyu is right regarding the 2 Sabbaths which occurred the week of the killing of the Christ.

I know better than to argue to much about Scriptures with you guys, as you have your religion and will stick to it. But even if you go backwards from Sunday morning before the Sunrise as is your tradition, you still have to consider the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible" regarding His Own Death, as false or misleading. Friday night just before sundown, to Sunday morning before sunrise doesn't even come close to 3 days and 3 nights. And I have no reason to imagine such foolishness, or try to twist the Very Christ's Words to make it so. Unless of course, I was defending an ancient religious tradition or trying to justify manmade religious high days.

And I have no reason or desire to twist or corrupt the Holy scriptures just to justify a popular religious tradition which existed in the world God placed me in. Especially given the many warning of the "many" who come in Christ's Name.

So one would have to ignore the Gospels to believe Jesus was in the heart of the earth for 2 nights and 1 day at most.

 

[timothyu]

The Gospels say Jesus was crucified on the Sabbath preparation, the day before the Sabbath, aka Friday before sunset.

As I said there were two sabbaths.. Passover which was one of many yearly sabbaths and also the Saturday Sabbath the next day. Jesus could not have been executed on a Sabbath, the Passover day. He had to have died on a Thursday, then hastily removed from the tree and placed in a tomb before sunset on the Thursday, the start of the Passover Sabbath that year.

 

[NxNW]

The fact that the dates were not recorded is one of many factors that result in my doubting that either ever occurred.

 

[Deborah~]

By months?

All the Scriptural and historical evidence, and there is a mountain of evidence to consider, is that Jesus was indeed born on December 25, and that date is attested to in writing going back to the time of the Apostles.

A Friday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection is also amply supported by Scripture and by historical evidence, as well as attested to by the earliest Christians.

There is no actual evidence that supports the many alternatives, and the internet is filled with chatter about all the ways people can count and what words mean in attempts to "prove" that since the beginning of the faith, Christians have gotten it all wrong about what dates the most important events in history occurred, even those who actually lived in or closest to those days. The many alternatives are invariably the result of "calculations" that are usually based on faulty and at best incomplete data (the priestly courses or calendrical cycles for example) or "interpretations" of some prophecy or other that may or may not be correct (Daniel's 70 weeks or the sign of Jonah for example).

The weight of evidence, and again, there is a mountain of evidence to consider, is that the dates of Jesus' birth, death, and resurrection, held sacred and celebrated by Christians since New Testament times, are the dates on which those historical events occurred.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Lost4words]

By months?

Dates mean nothing. Nobody can know for sure.

Most important thing is that we are acknowledging and remembering these very important events.

I am sure God is not too bothered about us getting the exact date right, or wrong.

God bless you my friend.

 

[Deborah~]

The Jews have always used a lunar calendar while the Church adopted the solar calendar. But then the Western Church adopted the Gregorian calendar while the Eastern Church continued to use the Julian calendar. Easter is celebrated on the same day each year, it's only a matter of how the date is selected and which calendar is used.

That's not quite accurate. The Jews did not have a "calendar" during Biblical times. Each month began when they physically observed the first crescent of the new moon. That could be either 1 or 2 days after the astronomical new moon, depending on various factors, including local weather conditions. Since there is no record (so far) of what days each month of each year the new moon was spotted, we don't actually know the precise days on which Jewish events occurred, such as Passover. Anyone claiming they can "prove" a date certain for these Biblical events is being disingenuous.

For those who lived in Judea and Galilee, that wasn't a problem. As soon as the new moon was officially recognized and the first day of the new month was announced, signal fires were lit on mountain tops to signal far and wide the beginning of the month (also for the beginning of the Sabbath and other important events that required official word from Jerusalem). For those living in Nazareth for example, the signal fire was atop Mt. Tabor, which could be seen all around the Sea of Galilee, up and down the Jezreel Valley, and from atop the mountains and hills in the whole province.

But for those of the Diaspora, those who were "scattered abroad" and lived in distant lands, by the time news reached them on what day Nisan had begun, and therefore what day Passover would occur, Passover was already over. So to solve this problem, those of the Diaspora celebrated Passover on two days, to be sure that they were correctly observing it on whichever day it actually fell.

For the first few centuries of the Christian faith, Christians faced the same dilemma. They were still observing the Easter season based on official word from Jerusalem of when the month of Nisan actually began, and then celebrating the Easter season based on the official Passover. But Christians had the same problem in that those who lived far from Jerusalem could not receive word in time and would miss the holy week observances.

To solve this problem, in A.D. 325 the Christians adopted a fixed calendar based on the Metonic cycle (the new moon will occur on the same calendar date every 19 years). With this fixed calendar, it was now possible to calculate in advance the new moon of the spring and therefore Christians throughout the world could all celebrate holy week in fellowship.

Only 25 years later the Jews also adopted a fixed calendar, also based on the Metonic cycle, and for the same reason, so Jews spread out across the world could know in advance when Passover would officially occur and could all celebrate together.

One of the earliest copies we have of the fixed calendar the Christians adopted, the only illustrated one, is by the calligrapher Furius Dionysius Filocalus dated to A.D. 354, who used this new system to create a calendar for a wealthy Roman Christian. The date on which Jesus' birth was historically celebrated, December 25, was noted on the calendar. Unknowingly, many people have cited this calendar and claim it is "the earliest reference to the celebration of Christmas," and therefore "proves" that it was at this time that Christians "adopted" a previously pagan holiday as the date of Christ's birth. But they are either unaware or simply choose to ignore that December 25 as the date of Christ's birth is recorded in other Christians writings long before that time. This was just the first time a fixed calendar was drawn up and the dates of Christian feasts were notated. Filocalus also included the dates of Easter over a hundred year period, from A.D. 312 to 411. He also included the Roman holidays and observances. Two things to note is that no Roman or pagan holiday was notated on December 25, and no one seems to conclude that the mention of a Roman holiday somehow "proves" that is when the Roman holiday "was adopted."

On a final note, the reason the Western churches celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25 and the Eastern churches celebrate the birth of Jesus on January 7 isn't because anyone got the dates wrong (or because that's when the wise men visited), it's because January 7 on the Gregorian calendar is December 25 on the Julian calendar. That Christmas song everyone is so familiar with, the "Twelve Days of Christmas," referred to the twelve days that lapsed between the Gregorian December 25 and the Julian December 25. (Only now it's 13 days.)

Hope this might shed a little light on what has become a really murky subject.

In Christ,
Deborah