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Kolya
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...that the Seventh Day Adventist church teaches that the Roman Pontiff will become the Anti-Christ and that America (the USA) is going to be it's (Rome's) agent?
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Wrong...? I don't think we'll find we're wrong, no offense intended. But its just... we have thebible on our side.
Uhm, on the isue of the Papacy being the antichrist.
Revelation 17:15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Okay. So we have four beasts here. Each beast represents a kingdom, right? Okay, the adventist interpretation, is the lion with the wings is babylon. Next, we have the bear with the ribs. This is meso-persia. Finally, the three headed leapod with the wings symbolises Greece. If you want to know why, please ask
But finally, we come down to the fourth beast- Rome.
Daniel 7:7After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
These 10 horns represent the 10 nations/kingdoms Rome would split up into. They as follows:
Visigoths--Spain
Anglo-Saxons--England
Franks--France
Alemani--Germany
Burgundians--Switzerland
Lombards--Italy
Suevi--Portugal
Heruli--Rooted up
Ostrogoths--Rooted up
Vandals--Rooted up
Notice how I said "rooted up"?
Daniel 7:8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
So a little horn came up, and rooted up three others. This here is the antichrist. The bible gives us ways to identify the antichrist too. Here they are:
A. The "little horn" or kingdom "came up among them"--the 10 horns which were the kingdoms of Western Europe (Daniel 7:8). So it would be a little kingdom somewhere in Western Europe.
B. It would have a man at its head who could speak for it (Daniel 7:8).
C. It would pluck up or uproot three kingdoms (Daniel 7:8).
D. It would be "diverse" or different from the other 10 kingdoms (Daniel 7:24).
E. It would make war with and "wear out" or persecute the saints (Daniel 7:21, 25).
F. It would emerge from the pagan Roman empire--the fourth world kingdom (Daniel 7:7, 8).
G. God�s people (the saints) would "be given into his hand" for "a time and times and the dividing of time" (Daniel 7:25).
H. It would "speak great words against" or blaspheme God (Daniel 7:25). In Revelation 13:5, the Bible says the same power speaks "great things and blasphemies."
I. It would "think to change times and laws." Daniel 7:25.
So, this little horn power must meet ALL of those requirements. And what power does? There is only one and that is the Papacy.
A. It "came up among" the 10 kingdoms of Western Europe.
The geographical location of the papal power was in Rome, Italy--the very heart of the territory of Western Europe.
B. It would have a man at its head who speaks for it.
The papacy meets this identifying mark because it does have one man at the head (the pope) who speaks for it.
C. It would pluck up or uproot three kingdoms.
The emperors of Western Europe were largely Catholic and supported the papacy in its growth and authority. Three Arian kingdoms, however, did not support the papacy--the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths. So the Catholic emperors decided they must be subdued or destroyed. Here is how Dr. Mervyn Maxwell, a theologian and historian, described the results in volume 1, page 129, of his book God Cares: "The Catholic emperor Zeno (474-491) arranged a treaty with the Ostrogoths in 487 which resulted in the eradication of the kingdom of the Arian Heruls in 493. And the Catholic emperor Justinian (527-565) exterminated the Arian Vandals in 534 and significantly broke the power of the Arian Ostrogoths in 538. Thus were Daniel's three horns --the Heruls, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths--'plucked up by the roots.' " It is not difficult to recognize that the papacy fits this point.
D. It would be "diverse" or different from the other kingdoms.
The papacy clearly fits this description, also. It came on the scene as a religious power and was totally different from the secular nature of the other 10 kingdoms.
E. It would make war with and persecute the saints.
That the church did persecute is a well-known fact. The papacy clearly admits doing so. Much supportive evidence exists. Even conservative historians claim the church probably destroyed at least 50 million people over matters of religious conviction. We will quote here from two sources:
1. "That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history. 1
2. In The History of the Inquisition of Spain, D. Ivan Antonio Llorente provides these figures from the Spanish Inquisition alone:
We are quoting two authorities on this point:
1. "The mighty Catholic Church was little more than the Roman Empire baptised ... The very capital of the old Roman Empire became the capital of the Christian empire. The office of Pontifex Maximus was continued in that of the pope." 2
2. "Whatever Roman elements the barbarians and Arians left ... [came] under the protection of the Bishop of Rome, who was the chief person there after the emperor's disappearance. The Roman Church in this way privily pushed itself into the place of the Roman World-Empire, of which it is the actual continuation." 3 So, once again, the point fits the papacy.
G. God's people (the saints) would "be given into his hand" for "a time and times and the dividing of time." Daniel 7:25.
Several things need clarification in connection with this point:
1. A time is a year, times is two years, and the dividing of time is a half-year. The Amplified Bible translates it: "Three and one-half years." 4
2. This same time period is mentioned seven times (Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14; 13:5) in the books of Daniel and Revelation: three times as a time, times, and half a time; twice as 42 months; and twice as 1,260 days. Based on the 30-day calendar used by the Jews, these time periods are all the same amount of time:
3 1/2 years = 42 months = 1,260 days.
3. One prophetic day equals one literal year (Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34).
4. Thus, the little horn (Antichrist) was to have power over the saints for 1,260 prophetic days or 1,260 literal years.
5. The rule of the papacy began in A.D. 538, when the last of the three opposing Arian kingdoms was uprooted. Its rule continued until 1798 when Napoleon's general, Berthier, took the pope captive with hopes of destroying both Pope Pius VI and the political, secular power of the papacy. This period of time is an exact fulfillment of the 1,260-year prophecy. The blow was a deadly wound for the papacy, but that wound began to heal and continues healing today.
6. This same period of persecution is mentioned in Matthew 24:21 as the worst period of persecution God's people will ever experience. Verse 22 tells us it was so devastating that not one soul would have survived if God had not shortened it. But God did shorten it. The persecution ended long before the pope was taken captive in 1798. It is plain to see that this point, likewise, fits the papacy.
H. It would speak "great words" of blasphemy "against the most High [God]."
Blasphemy has two definitions in Scripture:
1. Claiming to forgive sins (Luke 5:21).
2. Claiming to be God (John 10:33).
Does this point fit the papacy? Yes! Let's first look at the evidence for it claiming to forgive sins: "Does the Priest truly forgive the sins, or does he only declare that they are remitted? The Priest does really and truly forgive the sins in virtue of the power given to him by Christ." 5 The papacy further undermines Jesus by setting up a system of confession to an earthly priest, thus bypassing Jesus, our High Priest (Hebrews 3:1; 8:1, 2) and only Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5).
Next consider the evidence for it claiming to be God: "We [the popes] hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." 6 Here is another: "The pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." 7
It's obvious this point, likewise, fits the papacy.
I. It would "think to change times and laws."
The times is a very big subject, and not nessacary for us to go into here. So, we will instead deal with the laws. What about changing the "laws"? The Amplified Bible translates "laws" as "the law." The reference is to changing God's law. Of course, no one can really change it, but has the papacy attempted to do so? The answer is "yes."
In its catechisms, the papacy has omitted the second commandment against veneration of images and has shortened the fourth commandment from 94 words to eight and divided the tenth commandment into two commandments. (Check this for yourself. Compare the Ten Commandments in any Catholic catechism with God's list of the commandments in Exodus 20:3-17.) There is no doubt that the little horn power of Daniel chapter 7 (the Antichrist) is the papacy. No other organization could possibly fit these nine points. And incidentally, this is no new teaching. Every Reformer, without exception, spoke of the papacy as Antichrist.
So there ya go =)
(please note, some of this was copied and pasted from sabbath truths study guides, and those parts will be obvious as they'll have little numbers above them and not be put in my working.)
Uhm, on the isue of the Papacy being the antichrist.
Revelation 17:15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Okay. So we have four beasts here. Each beast represents a kingdom, right? Okay, the adventist interpretation, is the lion with the wings is babylon. Next, we have the bear with the ribs. This is meso-persia. Finally, the three headed leapod with the wings symbolises Greece. If you want to know why, please ask
But finally, we come down to the fourth beast- Rome.Daniel 7:7After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
These 10 horns represent the 10 nations/kingdoms Rome would split up into. They as follows:
Visigoths--Spain
Anglo-Saxons--England
Franks--France
Alemani--Germany
Burgundians--Switzerland
Lombards--Italy
Suevi--Portugal
Heruli--Rooted up
Ostrogoths--Rooted up
Vandals--Rooted up
Notice how I said "rooted up"?
Daniel 7:8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
So a little horn came up, and rooted up three others. This here is the antichrist. The bible gives us ways to identify the antichrist too. Here they are:
A. The "little horn" or kingdom "came up among them"--the 10 horns which were the kingdoms of Western Europe (Daniel 7:8). So it would be a little kingdom somewhere in Western Europe.
B. It would have a man at its head who could speak for it (Daniel 7:8).
C. It would pluck up or uproot three kingdoms (Daniel 7:8).
D. It would be "diverse" or different from the other 10 kingdoms (Daniel 7:24).
E. It would make war with and "wear out" or persecute the saints (Daniel 7:21, 25).
F. It would emerge from the pagan Roman empire--the fourth world kingdom (Daniel 7:7, 8).
G. God�s people (the saints) would "be given into his hand" for "a time and times and the dividing of time" (Daniel 7:25).
H. It would "speak great words against" or blaspheme God (Daniel 7:25). In Revelation 13:5, the Bible says the same power speaks "great things and blasphemies."
I. It would "think to change times and laws." Daniel 7:25.
So, this little horn power must meet ALL of those requirements. And what power does? There is only one and that is the Papacy.
A. It "came up among" the 10 kingdoms of Western Europe.
The geographical location of the papal power was in Rome, Italy--the very heart of the territory of Western Europe.
B. It would have a man at its head who speaks for it.
The papacy meets this identifying mark because it does have one man at the head (the pope) who speaks for it.
C. It would pluck up or uproot three kingdoms.
The emperors of Western Europe were largely Catholic and supported the papacy in its growth and authority. Three Arian kingdoms, however, did not support the papacy--the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths. So the Catholic emperors decided they must be subdued or destroyed. Here is how Dr. Mervyn Maxwell, a theologian and historian, described the results in volume 1, page 129, of his book God Cares: "The Catholic emperor Zeno (474-491) arranged a treaty with the Ostrogoths in 487 which resulted in the eradication of the kingdom of the Arian Heruls in 493. And the Catholic emperor Justinian (527-565) exterminated the Arian Vandals in 534 and significantly broke the power of the Arian Ostrogoths in 538. Thus were Daniel's three horns --the Heruls, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths--'plucked up by the roots.' " It is not difficult to recognize that the papacy fits this point.
D. It would be "diverse" or different from the other kingdoms.
The papacy clearly fits this description, also. It came on the scene as a religious power and was totally different from the secular nature of the other 10 kingdoms.
E. It would make war with and persecute the saints.
That the church did persecute is a well-known fact. The papacy clearly admits doing so. Much supportive evidence exists. Even conservative historians claim the church probably destroyed at least 50 million people over matters of religious conviction. We will quote here from two sources:
1. "That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history. 1
2. In The History of the Inquisition of Spain, D. Ivan Antonio Llorente provides these figures from the Spanish Inquisition alone:
- 31,912 persons were condemned and perished in the flames.
- 241,450 persons were condemned to severe penalties.
We are quoting two authorities on this point:
1. "The mighty Catholic Church was little more than the Roman Empire baptised ... The very capital of the old Roman Empire became the capital of the Christian empire. The office of Pontifex Maximus was continued in that of the pope." 2
2. "Whatever Roman elements the barbarians and Arians left ... [came] under the protection of the Bishop of Rome, who was the chief person there after the emperor's disappearance. The Roman Church in this way privily pushed itself into the place of the Roman World-Empire, of which it is the actual continuation." 3 So, once again, the point fits the papacy.
G. God's people (the saints) would "be given into his hand" for "a time and times and the dividing of time." Daniel 7:25.
Several things need clarification in connection with this point:
1. A time is a year, times is two years, and the dividing of time is a half-year. The Amplified Bible translates it: "Three and one-half years." 4
2. This same time period is mentioned seven times (Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14; 13:5) in the books of Daniel and Revelation: three times as a time, times, and half a time; twice as 42 months; and twice as 1,260 days. Based on the 30-day calendar used by the Jews, these time periods are all the same amount of time:
3 1/2 years = 42 months = 1,260 days.
3. One prophetic day equals one literal year (Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34).
4. Thus, the little horn (Antichrist) was to have power over the saints for 1,260 prophetic days or 1,260 literal years.
5. The rule of the papacy began in A.D. 538, when the last of the three opposing Arian kingdoms was uprooted. Its rule continued until 1798 when Napoleon's general, Berthier, took the pope captive with hopes of destroying both Pope Pius VI and the political, secular power of the papacy. This period of time is an exact fulfillment of the 1,260-year prophecy. The blow was a deadly wound for the papacy, but that wound began to heal and continues healing today.
6. This same period of persecution is mentioned in Matthew 24:21 as the worst period of persecution God's people will ever experience. Verse 22 tells us it was so devastating that not one soul would have survived if God had not shortened it. But God did shorten it. The persecution ended long before the pope was taken captive in 1798. It is plain to see that this point, likewise, fits the papacy.
H. It would speak "great words" of blasphemy "against the most High [God]."
Blasphemy has two definitions in Scripture:
1. Claiming to forgive sins (Luke 5:21).
2. Claiming to be God (John 10:33).
Does this point fit the papacy? Yes! Let's first look at the evidence for it claiming to forgive sins: "Does the Priest truly forgive the sins, or does he only declare that they are remitted? The Priest does really and truly forgive the sins in virtue of the power given to him by Christ." 5 The papacy further undermines Jesus by setting up a system of confession to an earthly priest, thus bypassing Jesus, our High Priest (Hebrews 3:1; 8:1, 2) and only Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5).
Next consider the evidence for it claiming to be God: "We [the popes] hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." 6 Here is another: "The pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." 7
It's obvious this point, likewise, fits the papacy.
I. It would "think to change times and laws."
The times is a very big subject, and not nessacary for us to go into here. So, we will instead deal with the laws. What about changing the "laws"? The Amplified Bible translates "laws" as "the law." The reference is to changing God's law. Of course, no one can really change it, but has the papacy attempted to do so? The answer is "yes."
In its catechisms, the papacy has omitted the second commandment against veneration of images and has shortened the fourth commandment from 94 words to eight and divided the tenth commandment into two commandments. (Check this for yourself. Compare the Ten Commandments in any Catholic catechism with God's list of the commandments in Exodus 20:3-17.) There is no doubt that the little horn power of Daniel chapter 7 (the Antichrist) is the papacy. No other organization could possibly fit these nine points. And incidentally, this is no new teaching. Every Reformer, without exception, spoke of the papacy as Antichrist.
So there ya go =)
(please note, some of this was copied and pasted from sabbath truths study guides, and those parts will be obvious as they'll have little numbers above them and not be put in my working.)
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TrustAndObey
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Good response Windmill! It's hard to believe that you're only 14 sometimes! You're already such a strong voice for God little sister.
I get a little dumbfounded when people talk about the antichrist. The bible says there were already MANY antichrists in John's time.........
1 John 2:18 - Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there *many* antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
So to answer your question, no, Adventists do not believe that the Roman Pointiff is the only antichrist...for there are many.
Kolya said:
I get a little dumbfounded when people talk about the antichrist. The bible says there were already MANY antichrists in John's time.........
1 John 2:18 - Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there *many* antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
So to answer your question, no, Adventists do not believe that the Roman Pointiff is the only antichrist...for there are many.
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I think it is more important to be able to say that we have the Master of the Universe on our side. It turns out that everyone has Him on their side, but they happen to have the devil on the other side as well. This is not about being right or wrong. You will find that every denomination has placed extra emphasis on one part of the gospel and ended up doing a disservice to other parts. Every time we emphasize divisioins we should realise that we are working against Christ's prayer that we all may be one, as He and the Father are one.Windmill said:
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It is difficult to say what the church teacheson this question. Many people have their ideas about these events. Personally, I am convinced we will ultimately realize that we are all wrong. However, if we are secure in the Master we have nothing to fear of the anti-Christ.Kolya said:
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honorthesabbath
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Hi statrei, you quoted..
"Every time we emphasize divisioins we should realise that we are working against Christ's prayer that we all may be one, as He and the Father are one."
Here is the text I believe you are referring to.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
We must ever be on guard NOT to "unite" under error, for this is what brought about the great apostacy in the first place--COMPROMISE. Did we ever once see God demand of the Israelites to "unite" with the pagans because they were His children too?? Oh no--the command was clear. If the pagans refused to hear the gospel and turn from their false gods--the children of God were to have nothing to do with them. We are admonished of this same thing in the NT.
*** 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
This is not saying that we do not love our erring brethren--BUT--we are not to UNITE with those who insist on living contrary to the clearest of scriptures.
The body of Christ is compromised when it's members do not know in what they believe.
Ho 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
One LORD, one FAITH, one BAPTISM--this is what we are to unite under--not many Lords, not many beliefs, not different kinds of baptisms (pouring, sprinkling immersion)!! Remember that on the day of Pentecost--they were ALL in ONE MIND (they believed the same doctrines). This is the UNITY Christ prayed for. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
I hope and pray that forums like this will help bring God's children under that ONE LORD--ONE FAITH and ONE BAPTISM. To unite under the banner of bibical truth--and NOT traditions and opinions!!
Blessings, Honor
"Every time we emphasize divisioins we should realise that we are working against Christ's prayer that we all may be one, as He and the Father are one."
Here is the text I believe you are referring to.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
We must ever be on guard NOT to "unite" under error, for this is what brought about the great apostacy in the first place--COMPROMISE. Did we ever once see God demand of the Israelites to "unite" with the pagans because they were His children too?? Oh no--the command was clear. If the pagans refused to hear the gospel and turn from their false gods--the children of God were to have nothing to do with them. We are admonished of this same thing in the NT.
*** 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
This is not saying that we do not love our erring brethren--BUT--we are not to UNITE with those who insist on living contrary to the clearest of scriptures.
The body of Christ is compromised when it's members do not know in what they believe.
Ho 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
One LORD, one FAITH, one BAPTISM--this is what we are to unite under--not many Lords, not many beliefs, not different kinds of baptisms (pouring, sprinkling immersion)!! Remember that on the day of Pentecost--they were ALL in ONE MIND (they believed the same doctrines). This is the UNITY Christ prayed for. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
I hope and pray that forums like this will help bring God's children under that ONE LORD--ONE FAITH and ONE BAPTISM. To unite under the banner of bibical truth--and NOT traditions and opinions!!
Blessings, Honor
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honorthesabbath
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I agree with you Truth--for a 14 yr. old--Windmill is as sharp as a tack!! You go girl!! EGW was right again when she said that "youth will finish the work"!!! Praise God! How does it feel Windmill to part of those THREE ANGELS giving to the world the last warning!!!??? What a privledge is ours!!!
Blessings, Honor
Blessings, Honor
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honorthesabbath
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Kolya said:
Yes Kolya--the SDA church has taught this since it's inception. But we were not the first ones to recognize the Vatican as the Great Apostacy. ALL of the Reformers said it first--for they were LIVING it.
As far the America goes--here is a quote from the Great Controversy, pg.588..
"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul
and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his
deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism,
the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The
Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching
their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism;
they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman
power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this
country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the
rights of conscience."
If you would like to read this great book, I will be happy to mail you a copy--free of charge. Just let me know if you are interested. And thank you for your question.
Blessings, Honor
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Thanks guys I try. Try being the word I get closer to God through study. See, my MBTI personality type is an INTJ. Heres an excert from the book entitled "Gods Gifted People"
I suppose they were reffering to the antichrist spoken in daniel and revelation? The beast? At least, this is what I assumed...
Does it really matter, if we say the bible or the master of the universe? They both mean the same thing basically, since the bible is Gods word =P
But thats where my agreement with you appears to end. Though we are one body as christians, that does not mean though, that there arn't divisions. These arn't ones that can be helped. They are merely there.
[BIBLE]Revelation 12:17[/BIBLE]
Okay. So this is saying two things about the end of time church:
1) It will keep all the commandments
2) It will have the "testimony of Jesus" (which is prophecy)
Obviously, not all churches have these things. They are still christians, but do not have those two things. Even God himself made a division of the true church and the others.
Also, we make special emphasise on the end of time because we're supposed to. Take these verses-
[BIBLE]Revelation 14:6-14[/BIBLE] We need to carry the three angels messages.
Sure, we don't need to put ourselves above others. But ignoring our duty as adventists is to carry the three angels messages. We can't ignore that! Even if it creates "divisions", the message needs to be spread. We can't pretend it doesn't exist and can't pretend that the Papacy is completely harmless..
I try. Try being the word I get closer to God through study. See, my MBTI personality type is an INTJ. Heres an excert from the book entitled "Gods Gifted People"And it is so true. Consequently, I like to study =) Though still have heaps to go.
Hmm. Honestly? I didn't even think of this. Good point!TrustAndObey said:Good response Windmill! It's hard to believe that you're only 14 sometimes! You're already such a strong voice for God little sister.
I get a little dumbfounded when people talk about the antichrist. The bible says there were already MANY antichrists in John's time.........
1 John 2:18 - Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there *many* antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
So to answer your question, no, Adventists do not believe that the Roman Pointiff is the only antichrist...for there are many.
I suppose they were reffering to the antichrist spoken in daniel and revelation? The beast? At least, this is what I assumed...Its totally awesome! =) though sometimes a burden XD Witnessing can be a pain. Espically since my class is filled with rock solid atheists O_O I've learnt my place. They hate my guts, soley because I am a christian. Oh well =P And yeah... nah I don't think I'll finish much work off >.O XD I'm too shy to do any of the sort. Though, I reckon it'd be awesome too though. The end of times used to be scary, now, they seem exciting! O_Ohonorthesabbath said:
statrei said:
Does it really matter, if we say the bible or the master of the universe? They both mean the same thing basically, since the bible is Gods word =P
But thats where my agreement with you appears to end. Though we are one body as christians, that does not mean though, that there arn't divisions. These arn't ones that can be helped. They are merely there.
[BIBLE]Revelation 12:17[/BIBLE]
Okay. So this is saying two things about the end of time church:
1) It will keep all the commandments
2) It will have the "testimony of Jesus" (which is prophecy)
Obviously, not all churches have these things. They are still christians, but do not have those two things. Even God himself made a division of the true church and the others.
Also, we make special emphasise on the end of time because we're supposed to. Take these verses-
[BIBLE]Revelation 14:6-14[/BIBLE] We need to carry the three angels messages.
Sure, we don't need to put ourselves above others. But ignoring our duty as adventists is to carry the three angels messages. We can't ignore that! Even if it creates "divisions", the message needs to be spread. We can't pretend it doesn't exist and can't pretend that the Papacy is completely harmless..
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Kolya
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Thanks for your prompt and direct answers guys. I appreciate that. Í'm not sure I followed everything, but windmill, you have been doing your homework.
What part does Ellen White play in your interpretaions of doctrine?
I appreciate that. Í'm not sure I followed everything, but windmill, you have been doing your homework.What part does Ellen White play in your interpretaions of doctrine?
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TrustAndObey said:Good response Windmill! It's hard to believe that you're only 14 sometimes! You're already such a strong voice for God little sister.
I get a little dumbfounded when people talk about the antichrist. The bible says there were already MANY antichrists in John's time.........
1 John 2:18 - Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there *many* antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
So to answer your question, no, Adventists do not believe that the Roman Pointiff is the only antichrist...for there are many.
It's not one specific pope, it's the position of the papacy itself. It is the position that Satan uses therefore, any man sitting in it can be used by Satan. Probably completely unaware.
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Who told you that this is the position Satan uses? You had best be careful of the number of beliefs you follow that come from that same position.SassySDA said:
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honorthesabbath
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statrei said:
Whoops--lol-sorry!! But I think that Christ's prayer in John 17 is synopcized in Eph 4:5--unity in TRUTH!!
Blessings, Honor
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Why go for the commentary when we have the original. You can't improve on God -- not even Paul can.honorthesabbath said:Whoops--lol-sorry!! But I think that Christ's prayer in John 17 is synopcized in Eph 4:5--unity in TRUTH!!
Blessings, Honor
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honorthesabbath
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statrei said:
Hi stareigeeif seems as if you and I are butting opinions latelylolbut on this one I must side with Sassy. It very definitely IS the office of the papacy( the HEAD) that Satan is the force behind. It is the office of the papacy (the HEAD) that guides and directs the catholic church. Lets look at 2 texts
Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
These texts make it clear that it is that old DRAGON who gives the seatthe powerand great authority to that OFFICE.
Note too that that HEAD receives a deadly wound!!
Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
This verse of course refers to the February 15, 1798, capturing of Pope Pius VI, by General Berthier. Thus fulfilling that prophecy.
I am acutely aware of how hard it is to present theses truths in such a public forum. But after allthis IS the three angels message that we as Adventists were commissioned to take to the world. And eventually we will rejoice when those that heard and accepted came out of her!!!
I would however like to hear your position on the matter. Thank you.
Blessings, Honor
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honorthesabbath
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[QUOTE
What part does Ellen White play in your interpretaions of doctrine?[/QUOTE]
Hi Koyla, I know that many ppl feel that ALL of the SDA doctrines were "given" by EGW--this is not the case. ALL of the SDA doctrines were born from the scriptures. Having said that, I also want to emphasize that Rev.12:17 says that the remnant church would have the spirit of prophecy in its midst.
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Re 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
So in light of these textsyeswe believe EGW to be Gods end-time herald. Just as John the Baptist was Christs herald at His first advent. Neither John or Ellen changed the Word or prophecies of Godthey simply clarified them as present truth. If you recallall of Israel believed that the Messiah would come as a conquering kingbut John proclaimed Him to be a LAMB!! And so Godthru Ellen, has clarified the roles and identities of the beasts for these end times.
Ohand one more thing. I have been told by sooooo many ppl that EGW couldnt possibly be a prophet because she is a woman. But they forget about these very profound Words
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
I hope this has helped you. By the wayyou didnt tell me if you wanted that free copy of the GREAT CONTROVERSY!! The offer is still good!!! Lol
Blessings, Honor
What part does Ellen White play in your interpretaions of doctrine?[/QUOTE]
Hi Koyla, I know that many ppl feel that ALL of the SDA doctrines were "given" by EGW--this is not the case. ALL of the SDA doctrines were born from the scriptures. Having said that, I also want to emphasize that Rev.12:17 says that the remnant church would have the spirit of prophecy in its midst.
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Re 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
So in light of these textsyeswe believe EGW to be Gods end-time herald. Just as John the Baptist was Christs herald at His first advent. Neither John or Ellen changed the Word or prophecies of Godthey simply clarified them as present truth. If you recallall of Israel believed that the Messiah would come as a conquering kingbut John proclaimed Him to be a LAMB!! And so Godthru Ellen, has clarified the roles and identities of the beasts for these end times.
Ohand one more thing. I have been told by sooooo many ppl that EGW couldnt possibly be a prophet because she is a woman. But they forget about these very profound Words
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
I hope this has helped you. By the wayyou didnt tell me if you wanted that free copy of the GREAT CONTROVERSY!! The offer is still good!!! Lol
Blessings, Honor
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I don't doubt the role of the dragon. I question your conclusion that it is the Catholic Church. What I find interesting is that those who point fingers at the Catholic Church fail to realize that they very foundation of their theology comes from the Catholic Church. It was the Catholic church that emphasized that Revelation comes from God to the Church and must be accepted by the people without question. Protestants simply replaced the Pope with the church organization. The teachings may be different but the foundation is the same.honorthesabbath said:
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