Is God good?

[simply christian]

Since I was sent to this forum, I'll ask here. Is God good?

Before you just answer yes, we must consider many of the bad things he has done in the bible and throughout human history. Now, I was taught in WoF circles that God is only good and never does evil.

But the bible says otherwise. Isaiah 45:7 says he does both peace and calamity. Light and darkness.

God seemed to enjoy smiting people in the old testament. It happened on nearly every page. We can say God is holy, he has his own ways of doing things. Okay. But then why do we call him good?

I wouldn't call a man who kills his kids, gives them fatal diseases, poverty, death, the curse, misery and suffering a "good" father. That sounds like anything but.

Perhaps God or religion's answer is that "good" doesn't mean the same thing to God as it does to us. But why then do we use the term "good", if it has no relevance to its actual meaning? Aren't we just playing word games?

I'm asking in sincerity, not to stir up trouble.

 

[Hillsage]

I wouldn't call a man who kills his kids, gives them fatal diseases, poverty, death, the curse, misery and suffering a "good" father. That sounds like anything but.

Sounds like Job's dilemma. But if you really read the scriptures close, God never told the devil what he should do to Job, he told him what he couldn't do. First time was "touch all, but not him" and the second time it was "touch him, don't kill him". So do we blame the devil or the devil's creator?

Perhaps God or religion's answer is that "good" doesn't mean the same thing to God as it does to us.

But why then do we use the term "good", if it has no relevance to its actual meaning? Aren't we just playing word games?

I think you might be on to something here. The verse below always seems to hit me as not being one I fully understand.

MAR 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

 

[Cush]

Since I was sent to this forum, I'll ask here. Is God good?

Before you just answer yes, we must consider many of the bad things he has done in the bible and throughout human history. Now, I was taught in WoF circles that God is only good and never does evil.

But the bible says otherwise. Isaiah 45:7 says he does both peace and calamity. Light and darkness.

God seemed to enjoy smiting people in the old testament. It happened on nearly every page. We can say God is holy, he has his own ways of doing things. Okay. But then why do we call him good?

I wouldn't call a man who kills his kids, gives them fatal diseases, poverty, death, the curse, misery and suffering a "good" father. That sounds like anything but.

Perhaps God or religion's answer is that "good" doesn't mean the same thing to God as it does to us. But why then do we use the term "good", if it has no relevance to its actual meaning? Aren't we just playing word games?

I'm asking in sincerity, not to stir up trouble.

Actually, still, even after reading your thread, say, God is only good. God's existence forms the light and makes peace. God's existence creates darkness and evil. Without God there is no measure. God's very existence creates a measure where everything else not of God can be gauged evil.

As far as the rest of your statements, saying that God has done not so good things in the OT... I think that it is rather arrogant. I suppose we could think that God is no smarter/wiser than any of us are, or we can understand that His thoughts and ways are higher than ours - Isaiah 55:8-9.

I'd rather attempt to understand why God's decisions are righteous, and why my own personal reasons/beliefs lack that morality, virtue and righteousness.

I wouldn't call a man who kills his kids, gives them fatal diseases, poverty, death, the curse, misery and suffering a "good" father. That sounds like anything but.

Do you teach your children premarital sex is ok? Do you support a society that does? Do you consider yourself a good father? or even citizen of the country rather than a citizen of God's Heavenly Kingdom? What about abortion, what's your position. No need to answer specifics, the question really comes down to if whether you have seen the consequences of your actions/beliefs/and convictions and the pattern of behavior that can be handed down from one generation to another.... like a curse.

Shout Glory

 

[simply christian]

Actually, still, even after reading your thread, say, God is only good. God's existence forms the light and makes peace. God's existence creates darkness and evil. Without God there is no measure. God's very existence creates a measure where everything else not of God can be gauged evil.

Fair enough.

As far as the rest of your statements, saying that God has done not so good things in the OT... I think that it is rather arrogant. I suppose we could think that God is no smarter/wiser than any of us are, or we can understand that His thoughts and ways are higher than ours - Isaiah 55:8-9.

If you're saying, we should give God the benefit of the doubt, I can give you that.

But it's nothing more than a standard religious appeal to try and bring up Isaiah 55:8 and 9.

I'd rather attempt to understand why God's decisions are righteous, and why my own personal reasons/beliefs lack that morality, virtue and righteousness.

Well, one could pick up the old testament and find endorsements for slavery, polygamy, child slaughter and the like advocated in its pages by God, so it says. So if you are saying that in order to be "righteous" you must accept those things as good, then I would say your morality is not as high as you think it is.

Do you teach your children premarital sex is ok? Do you support a society that does? Do you consider yourself a good father? or even citizen of the country rather than a citizen of God's Heavenly Kingdom? What about abortion, what's your position. No need to answer specifics, the question really comes down to if whether you have seen the consequences of your actions/beliefs/and convictions and the pattern of behavior that can be handed down from one generation to another.... like a curse.

Shout Glory

And what is your actual point, bringing up political issues?

Do you endorse slavery?

How about having multiple wives?

Do you advocate killing children if God tells you to?

God in the bible advocates all of the following.

 

[simply christian]

Sounds like Job's dilemma. But if you really read the scriptures close, God never told the devil what he should do to Job, he told him what he couldn't do. First time was "touch all, but not him" and the second time it was "touch him, don't kill him". So do we blame the devil or the devil's creator?

I think you might be on to something here. The verse below always seems to hit me as not being one I fully understand.

MAR 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

But even Jesus said men can be good or evil. If we're going to play word games and say God is the only thing "good" we have just denigrated all of creation, ignored many portions of the bible which say things are good and sold many things short. If God is the only thing "good" then, so be it. However, good then, means something very different and we ought to stop using the term to describe both God and other good things.

We should say, "God is good." But by contrast, we cannot say a meal is good, or life is good, or that we had a "good" time. Seeing as how God represents things we know are not good, such as slavery, polygamy, child slaughter and the like (at times, in the bible), we cannot use the term to describe both God and things we instrinically know are wrong.

 

[Cush]

Fair enough.

If you're saying, we should give God the benefit of the doubt, I can give you that.

But it's nothing more than a standard religious appeal to try and bring up Isaiah 55:8 and 9.

Well, one could pick up the old testament and find endorsements for slavery, polygamy, child slaughter and the like advocated in its pages by God, so it says. So if you are saying that in order to be "righteous" you must accept those things as good, then I would say your morality is not as high as you think it is.

And what is your actual point, bringing up political issues?

Do you endorse slavery?

How about having multiple wives?

Do you advocate killing children if God tells you to?

God in the bible advocates all of the following.

Do I endorse slavery? Yes. Not the form however, that we have today. How about Multiple wives? Is there a clear teaching to have more than one wife? Isn't the man to go to the woman to become one flesh, or rather are you saying that it says to become many flesh? Are you telling me that because the Bible records the actions of men that it in itself condones the act?

Do I advocate killing children if God tells you to? If God tells me to do something then I would be wrong to not follow, regardless of whether I do not. I believe man is a poor instrument to enact out God's righteous decision in this regard. There are two evils I am aware of, and they are natural and human. I'd far be more happy if God only relied on natural evil to fulfill His Justice. However, by your earlier statement, you are against disease and other natural plagues. Lastly, do you suppose there is never any justification in taking life, whether they be child, woman, or man?

Are you stating that Society has greater morality and virtue than God? And, lastly, were they political issues, social, or cultural issues? Which ones by the way do you accept or reject?

Shout Glory

 

[Hillsage]

But even Jesus said men can be good or evil. If we're going to play word games and say God is the only thing "good" we have just denigrated all of creation, ignored many portions of the bible which say things are good and sold many things short. If God is the only thing "good" then, so be it. However, good then, means something very different and we ought to stop using the term to describe both God and other good things.

We should say, "God is good." But by contrast, we cannot say a meal is good, or life is good, or that we had a "good" time. Seeing as how God represents things we know are not good, such as slavery, polygamy, child slaughter and the like (at times, in the bible), we cannot use the term to describe both God and things we instrinically know are wrong.

Reread my post. I'm agreeing with your quote below...there may be two definitions of 'good'. Scripture is certainly not giving us the clear picture.

Perhaps God or religion's answer is that "good" doesn't mean the same thing to God as it does to us.

Maybe His definition is 'divine in perspective' and then our more 'religious/worldly definitions might just be from a more worldly view. Not sure...just thinking here.

 

[horrace99]

Yes God's definition of good is completely different from ours.What we call good could really be evil in God's eyes.God IS good but God's true definition of good is merciful,hate evil,be perfect,punish evil,be truthful,fight against evil.

God had to destroy in the past because He promised adam and eve that they're seed would crush satans head and God needed to make sure that everything went according to plan.Before Jesus died you had to take accountability for your sins or give them to a sacrifice.When Jesus died all of mankinds sins were forgiven and they did not have to be held accountable and face the death penalty and eternal damnation in hell.

Yes our definition of good is not the true definition but only God knows the true definition of what is good.

God brings calamity only when He needs to like sodom,the flood,a and many others.The calamity God brings is for the greater good of His people.

God is only a true Father to people who are born-again in fact Jesus said that anyone who is still living without His blood is a child of satan and needs to be forgiven and become an adopted son of God.

hope this helps God bless

 

[simply christian]

Do I endorse slavery? Yes. Not the form however, that we have today.

So you believe it is acceptable to actually own another human being as property? Why is that?

How about Multiple wives? Is there a clear teaching to have more than one wife? Isn't the man to go to the woman to become one flesh, or rather are you saying that it says to become many flesh? Are you telling me that because the Bible records the actions of men that it in itself condones the act?

God outright told David that he would have given him even more wives, if the ones he had were not enough, when he sent Nathan to reprimand David for murdering Uriah.

Do I advocate killing children if God tells you to? If God tells me to do something then I would be wrong to not follow, regardless of whether I do not.

That is dangerous. This is no different than those in the news who have murdered their own children or what have you because they believe God told them to. Frightening.

It is also a blow to the teaching that many Christians have in absolute morality. If morality is only moral because God says so (and nothing else is moral in and of itself) then you have moral relativism. Murder is not wrong, it's only wrong if God tells you so. That is dangerous and is responsible for many of the crimes committed by terrorists.

I believe man is a poor instrument to enact out God's righteous decision in this regard. There are two evils I am aware of, and they are natural and human. I'd far be more happy if God only relied on natural evil to fulfill His Justice. However, by your earlier statement, you are against disease and other natural plagues. Lastly, do you suppose there is never any justification in taking life, whether they be child, woman, or man?

Are you stating that Society has greater morality and virtue than God?

Possibly, especially since society is against ownership of humans as chattel and is also against polygamy and murdering children.

And, lastly, were they political issues, social, or cultural issues? Which ones by the way do you accept or reject?

Shout Glory

I would say they were.

 

[simply christian]

Yes God's definition of good is completely different from ours.What we call good could really be evil in God's eyes.God IS good but God's true definition of good is merciful,hate evil,be perfect,punish evil,be truthful,fight against evil.

Define "evil." If good has no meaning, then neither does its counterpart, evil.

If God sanctions child murder or slavery or polygamy, then what can we say to that? I won't call those things "good" despite what religion may expect.

God had to destroy in the past because He promised adam and eve that they're seed would crush satans head and God needed to make sure that everything went according to plan.Before Jesus died you had to take accountability for your sins or give them to a sacrifice.When Jesus died all of mankinds sins were forgiven and they did not have to be held accountable and face the death penalty and eternal damnation in hell.

Hmm, perhaps. But didn't God set up the system that way in the first place? Isn't he almighty? If so on either count, then he could have easily chosen to do it another way. Yet he didn't; why is that?

Yes our definition of good is not the true definition but only God knows the true definition of what is good.

Well, actually my dictionary is a fine definition of what is good and what is not. Since God can make the word mean things which are clearly not good, then I will stop referring to him as good. (It's far easier to use the word properly and exclude God from its description than it is to purge the word from its proper use in order to describe God alone - which is dishonest to the english language.)

God brings calamity only when He needs to like sodom,the flood,a and many others.The calamity God brings is for the greater good of His people.

I won't disagree.

God is only a true Father to people who are born-again in fact Jesus said that anyone who is still living without His blood is a child of satan and needs to be forgiven and become an adopted son of God.

hope this helps God bless

So God is NOT creator of non-christians then? Why do many Christians try and say that he is? If God only creates Christians, then it seems blatantly dishonest of believers to try and tell the unsaved that God had any part in their creation when he didn't.

Jesus actually said the jews were the children of the devil, not "anyone who just doesn't believe in him." He was specifically speaking to the jews at the time, in John chapter 8.

Since non-christians (what precisely defines one as a "true" Christian?) are created by Satan (he is their father, as you say), then what should our response be to these evil people?

 

[simply christian]

I am awaiting an argument to convince me that slavery, child murder, genocide, rape and polygamy are indeed good and noble things.

If you can somehow convince me that these acts are good, I will be amazed.

Is God similar to an abusive spouse who beats us, tells us we are bad then we continue to run back to him (in true battered-wife format)? But it's all okay as long as we say God is "good" (despite the fact that he obviously is not). Light and darkness cannot co-exist. If God creates evil, then he is. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit.

 

[Cush]

I am awaiting an argument to convince me that slavery, child murder, genocide, rape and polygamy are indeed good and noble things.

If you can somehow convince me that these acts are good, I will be amazed.

Is God similar to an abusive spouse who beats us, tells us we are bad then we continue to run back to him (in true battered-wife format)? But it's all okay as long as we say God is "good" (despite the fact that he obviously is not). Light and darkness cannot co-exist. If God creates evil, then he is. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit.

Convince you that slavery is good? Just look at the two forms of slavery given to us throughout the Bible (does one really have a choice?). I'll get back to this... Killing and murder are two different things, and what you consider a child in your culture or society I may consider an adult. Now you'll add rape and such to the list and make them noble.

Hmmm

Nice picture you're painting of God. I see you're wearing a collar in your picture, from which Costume shop did you purchase that?

Teehee, if it were up to me, here in America I would put each person in slavery on the basis of citzenship. Forget about selling yourself into slavery to pay off debt, which really is noble, that is, slavery by consent rather than by entitlement to government hand outs. Teehee, but why not, if the American people want to taste entitlements - I'd create an elite citzenship -- to have an American birth certificate, I'd attach a sum amount of debt. No property ownership ect., and you'll work for the Gov't until that sum is paid back. Not really different than what is done today. I mean why not take credit out on birth certificates, I'm certain - we could avg out how much the avg citizen would pay back throughout a life time. Forget the rob Peter to pay Paul, count on Paul's support that is very very real mentality of today in Obama's America.

Anyhoot, in all seriousness, what kind of Christian are you? Have you actually read the Bible, are you one of them cultural Christians that goes to church on the weekends and holidays? I can't believe I'm having this kind of argument/debate with someone that's wearing a collar.

Shout Glory

 

[Nanopants]

Since I was sent to this forum, I'll ask here. Is God good?

Before you just answer yes, we must consider many of the bad things he has done in the bible and throughout human history. Now, I was taught in WoF circles that God is only good and never does evil.

But the bible says otherwise. Isaiah 45:7 says he does both peace and calamity. Light and darkness.

God seemed to enjoy smiting people in the old testament. It happened on nearly every page. We can say God is holy, he has his own ways of doing things. Okay. But then why do we call him good?

I wouldn't call a man who kills his kids, gives them fatal diseases, poverty, death, the curse, misery and suffering a "good" father. That sounds like anything but.

Perhaps God or religion's answer is that "good" doesn't mean the same thing to God as it does to us. But why then do we use the term "good", if it has no relevance to its actual meaning? Aren't we just playing word games?

I'm asking in sincerity, not to stir up trouble.

Yes, God is good. But it's not an unfounded question. Without the revelation of Christ, we wouldn't know who God truly is.

 

[Nanopants]

I am awaiting an argument to convince me that slavery, child murder, genocide, rape and polygamy are indeed good and noble things.

If you can somehow convince me that these acts are good, I will be amazed.

I have no interest in defending those things. I may not agree that it is so neatly packaged into morally black & white extremes, but, as far as these difficult things are concerned, where are we told that the Bible is intended to be read like an straight-forward, pre-processed guidebook for life? If there is no guarantee, but it is inspired, shouldn't it be read much more like an organic mess that arose from the interaction of a fallen species with a transcendent God? Why should we be forced to an interpretation which produces more confusion than answered questions?

But, see, the Gospel is where all of that changes. Where things were hidden beforehand, now we have the answer we need. Now we can read and know who God is, in essence, in nature and in character, and we can hold onto that, judging the rest by that precious cornerstone.

Is God similar to an abusive spouse who beats us, tells us we are bad then we continue to run back to him (in true battered-wife format)? But it's all okay as long as we say God is "good" (despite the fact that he obviously is not). Light and darkness cannot co-exist. If God creates evil, then he is. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit.

You are right, but not that God is an abusive spouse. He's the kind of God that would lay down His life for His spouse, and if anyone should inflict injustice upon her, it would be better for such a one to have a millstone tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea. There's an answer for everything; the judgment, the wrath, the jealousy, but it's all rooted in love, and it makes more sense than some alien form of righteousness if you allow your interpretive lense to be corrected by His chief Revelation at the cross.

 

[Cush]

I have no interest in defending those things. I may not agree that it is so neatly packaged into morally black & white extremes, but, as far as these difficult things are concerned, where are we told that the Bible is intended to be read like an straight-forward, pre-processed guidebook for life? If there is no guarantee, but it is inspired, shouldn't it be read much more like an organic mess that arose from the interaction of a fallen species with a transcendent God? Why should we be forced to an interpretation which produces more confusion than answered questions?

But, see, the Gospel is where all of that changes. Where things were hidden beforehand, now we have the answer we need. Now we can read and know who God is, in essence, in nature and in character, and we can hold onto that, judging the rest by that precious cornerstone.

You are right, but not that God is an abusive spouse. He's the kind of God that would lay down His life for His spouse, and if anyone should inflict injustice upon her, it would be better for such a one to have a millstone tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea. There's an answer for everything; the judgment, the wrath, the jealousy, but it's all rooted in love, and it makes more sense than some alien form of righteousness if you allow your interpretive lense to be corrected by His chief Revelation at the cross.

Good reply N.Pants. And "Simply Christian" no offense, excuse my humor. I'm just trying to figure out from where you're coming from as your arguments seemingly fuel atheistic opinion.

There's an answer for everything; the judgment, the wrath, the jealousy, but it's all rooted in love, and it makes more sense than some alien form of righteousness if you allow your interpretive lense to be corrected by His chief Revelation at the cross.

Makes me think, if God would treat His only Son in such a way upon the cross, that is, the wrath He poured out upon Him, then how could anyone expect any different treatment other than what we know of Him? What makes you or anyone else think themselves so special?

Shout Glory

 

[Nanopants]

Makes me think, if God would treat His only Son in such a way upon the cross, that is, the wrath He poured out upon Him, then how could anyone expect any different treatment other than what we know of Him? What makes you or anyone else think themselves so special?

When I look at the cross, I don't see an angry Father pouring out His wrath on His Son. Instead, I see the Son proclaiming that He is one with the Father, and being killed for it.

 

[Juelrei]

Since I was sent to this forum, I'll ask here. Is God good?

Before you just answer yes, we must consider many of the bad things he has done in the bible and throughout human history.

Give a specific. No specific means no proof. Making what you post all empty accusations.

Now, I was taught in WoF circles that God is only good and never does evil.

And you ignore it and set up your strawman. Easy for me to knock down.

But the bible says otherwise. Isaiah 45:7 says he does both peace and calamity. Light and darkness.

That doesn't indicate that God does evil. Look at who he addressed himself to. Cyrus, an evil man. Jesus said of anyone who followed him; "and you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, will not your heavenly Father even moreso do likewise?"
God called Cyrus to do good to his covenant people. God anointed him for that task. Can you get that? God capable of anointing evil men to do good? How does that make Isaiah 45:7 an example of God being evil?

God seemed to enjoy smiting people in the old testament.

God stated through a prophet that he gets no pleasure in the calamities of men. We're told in the Bible that God delights to do good, that there is no evil in him, that God is righteous, and does not tempt anyone with evil.

It's quite obvious that you ignore passages of scripture that do not support your case.

It happened on nearly every page.

Give some examples. But then no examples is no proof. Fine with me.

We can say God is holy, he has his own ways of doing things. Okay. But then why do we call him good?

Ignoring examples of God being good huh?

I wouldn't call a man who kills his kids

Where?

gives them fatal diseases

God gave it? Where?

poverty, death, the curse, misery and suffering a "good" father. That sounds like anything but.

Ignoring the telling circumstances that point to the people who sinned and got an instant karma whammie. Is that God's fault that they weren't obedient so God could do good to them?
Those were the conditions of the covenant God set up. God clearly explained it to them. They all agreed to it. How does that make it all God's fault?

What kind of parent are you? If you don't set up punishments for unacceptable behavior in your family, are you being a good father? What of social authority? There's punishment for crime in any good government.

Your case against God isn't one at all.

Perhaps God or religion's answer is that "good" doesn't mean the same thing to God as it does to us.

Where that comes from I have no idea. Oh wait. It's the strawman again.

But why then do we use the term "good", if it has no relevance to its actual meaning? Aren't we just playing word games?

For sure you are playing some kind of game, trying to reclassify the definition of good, and re-characterize God; doing no good to yourself in your erroneous accusations against God.

I'm asking in sincerity, not to stir up trouble.

You go right ahead and think so.

 

[horrace99]

if you want to know how God feels about evil and slavery then watch these

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zYsx-fNqwHQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
take this God haters!!

 

[simply christian]

Makes me think, if God would treat His only Son in such a way upon the cross, that is, the wrath He poured out upon Him, then how could anyone expect any different treatment other than what we know of Him? What makes you or anyone else think themselves so special?

Oh, you're one of those Christians... the hellfire, "God-is-going-to-get-you", "God is a god of wrath" ones. I might have known.

I don't think we'll have much to discuss in the future.

Yes, if we're going to say, "God killed his own son" then the right question to ask might be what manner of evil is he incapable of?

I guess it all comes down to your own view of who God is (how absolute).

And my avatar is N.T. Wright.

As far as my statements being atheistic. Okay? On the basis of what? My appeal to logic and facts? Okay? Anything else?

I'd sooner be a misotheist than an atheist. Only a fool says there is absolutely no god. I'm no fool.

 

[simply christian]

Give a specific. No specific means no proof. Making what you post all empty accusations.
And you ignore it and set up your strawman. Easy for me to knock down.
That doesn't indicate that God does evil. Look at who he addressed himself to. Cyrus, an evil man. Jesus said of anyone who followed him; "and you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, will not your heavenly Father even moreso do likewise?"
God called Cyrus to do good to his covenant people. God anointed him for that task. Can you get that? God capable of anointing evil men to do good? How does that make Isaiah 45:7 an example of God being evil?
God stated through a prophet that he gets no pleasure in the calamities of men. We're told in the Bible that God delights to do good, that there is no evil in him, that God is righteous, and does not tempt anyone with evil.

It's quite obvious that you ignore passages of scripture that do not support your case.
Give some examples. But then no examples is no proof. Fine with me.
Ignoring examples of God being good huh?
Where?
God gave it? Where?
Ignoring the telling circumstances that point to the people who sinned and got an instant karma whammie. Is that God's fault that they weren't obedient so God could do good to them?
Those were the conditions of the covenant God set up. God clearly explained it to them. They all agreed to it. How does that make it all God's fault?

What kind of parent are you? If you don't set up punishments for unacceptable behavior in your family, are you being a good father? What of social authority? There's punishment for crime in any good government.

Your case against God isn't one at all.
Where that comes from I have no idea. Oh wait. It's the strawman again.
For sure you are playing some kind of game, trying to reclassify the definition of good, and re-characterize God; doing no good to yourself in your erroneous accusations against God.
You go right ahead and think so.

It's unnecessary, and nor do I have the countless hours required, to oblige you here. These things happened in almost every verse in the old testament, so I would just suggest starting in Exodus and go from there. Exodus until Psalms is pretty rough, and the prophets get back into the swing of things with all their doom and gloom talk.

Space does not permit, nor does time allow, for me to post every instance of God smiting someone, cursing them or what have you. Go read for yourself and see.