Infinite? Eternal - Eternally - Always - Forever (& Ever)

[Alive_Again]

I'm jumping the gun on the always and forever study, and here is a good place to do it. It should be in depth and what it reveals should provide a definitive picture of what God means when He says forever.

God's existence and kingdom is always and forever. The Word indicates that Hell is forever and ever. Taken at face value, our rewards will run concurrently. Some think of it as only an "age", as though it will run it's course, and then we'll start over, or something like that. Some believe those being punished will get out and eventually be saved(!).

It was said that Heaven had an army before it had any enemies. After the last wicked person has been consigned to the lake of fire, Heaven's warriors will remain. Lucifer fell from God's very presence, so everyone should fear and remember to always keep a pure heart.

Since the scripture at face value means forever and ever (without end), any attempts to go outside of Orthodox Christian beliefs and construct a "unorthodox" doctrine should be avoided. The words should speak for themselves. Everyone can judge by the Spirit of God and receive as appropriate.

If the cults did this, they'd doubtlessly repent because the Word should speak truth.

(I edited this original post since I provided the Strong's numbers myself.)

 

[Alive_Again]

These have been "rewinded" to the front of this thread. These and other scriptures in their entirety are forthcoming.


Eternal <G166> (Noun); <G165> (Adjective); For<G1519>(preposition); For ever<G165>

Forever <G1519>"eis" (preposition); <G165>"aion" (masculine noun)

<G1519>"eis" (preposition)
1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

Used 1774 times - (KJV) &#8212; into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 322

<G165>"aion" (masculine noun)

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Used 128 times (KJV) &#8212; ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5


Eternal<G165>"aion"

(Previously used in word study: translated as "for ever")

Noun (masculine)

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Used 128 times (KJV) &#8212; ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5

"Now unto the King eternal<G165>, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
1 Tim 1:17

"To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal<G165> purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:"
Eph 3:10-11

God's Eternal Name & Attributes

...Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever. <G165>Rev 5:13-14
...and worshipped Him that liveth for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever <G165>Rev 5:13-14
...Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for <G1519>ever. <G165>Heb 13:8
...Him that sat on the throne, who liveth for <G1519> ever <G165> and ever <G165>Rev 4:9-11
...worship him that liveth for<G1519> ever<G165> and ever<G165>Rev 4:9-11
...Him that liveth for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>Rev 10:6
...God, who liveth for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 15:7

Destruction (Forever)

...the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for <G1519>ever <G165>and ever<G165>Rev 14:11
...her smoke rose up for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 19:3
...the mist of darkness is reserved for<G1519> ever <G165>.&#8221;2 Peter 2:17
...reserved the blackness of darkness for<G1519> ever <G165>."Jude 1:13
...shall be tormented day and night for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 20:10
...God shall likewise destroy thee for ever<H5331>,...and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah." Psalms 52:4-5

Eternal<G166>"Aoonios" (Adjective)

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Used 71 times (KJV) &#8212; eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1

Eternal (King, purpose)

Eternal<G165>"aion" (noun)

...unto the King eternal<G165>, immortal,...be honour and glory for ever and ever. 1 Tim 1:17
...the eternal<G165> purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:" Eph 3:10-11


Eternal (redemption, salvation, glory, Spirit, life)
Also "everlasting" (judgment, punishment, chains)


Eternal<G166>"Aoonios" (adjective)

...having obtained eternal<G166> redemption for us Heb 9:12
...he became the author of eternal<G166> salvation unto all them that obey him Heb 5:9
...who hath called us unto his eternal<G166> glory by Christ Jesus 1 Peter 5:10
...the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal<G166> glory 2 Tim 2:10
...this is life eternal<G166>, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ John 17:3
...who through the eternal<G166> Spirit offered himself without spot to God Heb 9:14
...that eternal<G166>life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 1 John 1:2
...the gift of God is eternal life<G166> through Jesus Christ our Lord Romans 6:23
...they which are called might receive the promise of eternal<G166> inheritance Heb 9:15
...thou hast the words of eternal<G166> life John 6:68
...seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal<G166> life Romans 2:7
...In hope of eternal<G166> life Titus 1:2
...And I give unto them eternal<G166> life; and they shall never perish John 10:28
...that I may have eternal<G166> life? Matt 19:16
...but the righteous into life eternal<G166> Matt 25:46
...and in the world to come eternal<G166> life. Mark 10:30-31
...whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal<G166> life John 3:15
...gathereth fruit unto life eternal<G166> John 4:36
...for in them ye think ye have eternal<G166> life John 5:39
...eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal<G166> life John 6:54

...he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal<G166> John 12:25
...as many as were ordained to eternal<G166> life believed Acts 13:48
...grace reign through righteousness unto eternal<G166> life by Jesus Christ Romans 5:21
...worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal<G166> weight of glory 2 Cor 4:17
...but the things which are not seen are eternal<G166> 2 Cor 4:18
...lay hold on eternal<G166> life, whereunto thou art also called 1 Tim 6:12
...that they may lay hold on eternal<G166> lif" 1 Tim 6:19
...we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal<G166> life Titus 3:7
...the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal<G166>life 1 John 2:25
...no murderer hath eternal<G166> life abiding in him 1 John 3:15
..God hath given to us eternal<G166> life, and this life is in his Son 1 John 5:11
...that ye may know that ye have eternal<G166> life 1 John 5:13
...his is the true God, and eternal<G166> life 1 John 5:20
...the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal<G166> life Jude 1:21

Eternal Judgment, Fire, Damnation

...these shall go away into everlasting<G166>punishment Matt 25:46
...is in danger of eternal<G166> damnation<G2920> Mark 3:30
...he hath reserved in everlasting<G166> chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day Jude 1:6
...suffering the vengeance of eternal<G166>fire Jude 1:7
...and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal<G166> judgment Heb 6:2

 

[Alive_Again]

“Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:16-17

“(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 7:21

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:12-14

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:8

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

“For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
1 Peter 1:23-25

“These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.”
2 Peter 2:17

“And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1 John 2:17

“For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
2 John 1:2

“Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jude 1:13

“And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Rev 4:9-11

“And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 5:13-14

“Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:12

“And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:6

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:15

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:11

“And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 15:7

“And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:3

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:10

“And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 22:5

“Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 1:25

“For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11:36

“To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
Romans 16:27

“Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:4-5

“Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Phil 4:20

“Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Tim 1:16-17

“And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
2 Tim 4:18

“Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 13:21

“If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Peter 4:11

“But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
1 Peter 5:10-11

“But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
2 Peter 3:18

“And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matt 6:13

“Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 9:4-5

“And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:6

Everlasting

“And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
Gen 9:16

“And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 17:7-8

“And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Gen 17:19

“And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God.
Gen 21:33

“And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.
Gen 48:4

“The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.
Deut 33:27

“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psalms 41:13

“Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.
Psalms 93:2

“For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
Psalms 100:5

 

[Alive_Again]

“But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.
Psalms 103:17-18

“Surely he shall not be moved for ever: the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance.
Psalms 112:6

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Isaiah 9:6-7

“Trust ye in the Lord for ever: for in the Lord JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
Isaiah 26:4

“The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:14

“And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
Isaiah 35:10

“Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Isaiah 40:28

“But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Isaiah 45:17

“For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isaiah 56:4-5

“The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
Isaiah 60:19-21

“But since ye say, The burden of the Lord; therefore thus saith the Lord; Because ye say this word, The burden of the Lord, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the Lord; Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Jer 23:38-40

“The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
Jer 31:3

“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Dan 12:1-3

“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Micah 5:2

“Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matt 18:7-9

“And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
Matt 19:29-30

“And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matt 25:40-41

“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matt 25:45-46

“And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Luke 16:9

“And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Luke 18:29-30

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

“But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 4:14

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24

“Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 6:27

“And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:39-40

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:47-51

“And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
John 12:50

“Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Acts 13:46

“But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:22-23

“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
Romans 16:26-27

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:7-8

“Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2 Thess 1:6-10

“Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
2 Thess 2:16-17

“Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Tim 1:16-17

“Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Tim 6:16

“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 13:20-21

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:10-11

“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 1:6-7

“And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:6

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-48

 

[Alive_Again]

More Scriptures Relating to Hell and Judgment (since this is the question for many.)

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matt 5:21-22

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matt 13:37-43

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 13:47-50

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 19:20-21

Not much of an allegory there!

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:9-15

A somewhat gruesome subject. If I have missed any good scriptures, by all means add them in.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Since the scripture at face value means forever and ever (without end), any attempts to go outside of Orthodox Christian beliefs and construct a "unorthodox" doctrine should be avoided. The words should speak for themselves. Everyone can judge by the Spirit of God and receive as appropriate.

Jesus said, "...'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.'" (Jn 2:19)

The Bible is a spiritual book. Orthodox Christian beliefs (assuming you mean orthodox in the general sense and not as in the denomination) are typically based on a strongly literal interpretation of the Bible, which is unable to resolve the tensions in its doctrines. If as you say we are to take the Scripture at "face value", how do you explain Jesus' virtually exclusive use of symbolism in His teaching or the fact that the prophets, once they were sanctified and touched by God, prophecied in symbolic, metaphoric or allegorical language? How do you conform these facts and examples like Jn 2:19 with your exhortation to take the Scriptuer at face value?

BTW, I'm a universalist who accepts orthodox Bible scholarship; I believe that forever means forever in the Bible. I don't accept that "forever" applies to a length of punishment, but to the decree of desctruction by God upon the cause of sin.

 

[Alive_Again]

How exciting it is that you are here! It is good that a Universalist wants to be understood and to understand on this very subject. For this to take place, we must be open. You know actual cults won't give place to scriptures being questioned, or rather re-examined to see if their interpretation agrees with the body of the Word. The STRONGLY discourage taking things into the light. We know why!

The JWs continually revise their Bible to include their re-translation of passages as they are continually being discovered to contradict their doctrines. It keeps them selling Bibles!

The Bible is a spiritual book. Orthodox Christian beliefs (assuming you mean orthodox in the general sense and not as in the denomination) are typically based on a strongly literal interpretation of the Bible, which is unable to resolve the tensions in its doctrines.

First of, I'm not talking about the denomination. Secondly, I agree that many doctrines are made from taking the scripture at what it seems to say rather than the intent of what is said (the context). We can take for an example of that the scriptures that seem to say that no one goes up into heaven, yet the Bible itself clearly shows that they did. Anyone who knows God at any length knows that His Word is absolutely true. We know this because the Holy Spirit has shown us this by revelation.

It is this that I count to be "Orthodox". That church that the Holy Spirit has been laying (and confirming) foundational truth for centuries, and of course, much longer all along the way is the orthodox church I am referring to. He has been speaking (another key to where "you" or anyone are getting their doctrine). He IS still speaking and those Words still produce life.

Of course many deceivers have come forth. The ones that say the entire church is wrong are extremely suspect, and they typically deny who Jesus really is and make the person of the Holy Spirit into a "force"(!). If you were God and some group kept saying that, and you really did still speak, that might be one of the first things you got around to clearing up! If someone is fellowshipping in a church where they are preaching that, then they are not listening to the Holy Spirit of truth, because in a great light, with much life, He has shown that to be true. Those exhibiting the real fruits of the kingdom agree with this entirely. I don't think Universalists fall into this. I hope not! I knew one prophet who ended joining them for reason of trying to end their confusion when under attack, and they would have HAD to have known He was a person, because He was always speaking to them words for other people!

If as you say we are to take the Scripture at "face value", how do you explain Jesus' virtually exclusive use of symbolism in His teaching...

Not at all virtually exclusive. Many examples are given in parables, but they are meant to reflect man's very lives and the spiritual reality of the kingdom within. They actually confirm, not dismiss what is being said.

Case in point is the well known, often discussed account of Lazarus and the rich man. It is meant to demonstrate to us the reality of Hell and Paradise. The rich man suffered and had conscious thought, even though he was literally burning. The flame did not die (we've heard about the worm). We are told this because we can empathize with both positions and they are both choices given to us to accept or reject (depending on which side you want to be found on!)

or the fact that the prophets, once they were sanctified and touched by God, prophecied in symbolic, metaphoric or allegorical language?

Again, the symbology reflected an actual reality. It also symbolized their judgment. It made it more real, not less real.

To add value to our discussion, I would suggest adding the actual scripture, rather than the reference. Not everyone can recite them by chapter and verse (I can't!). I rely heavily on my Bible software. I've learned TONS using it. PTL.

How do you conform these facts and examples like Jn 2:19 with your exhortation to take the Scripture at face value?

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:19

It was understood by Him (and those who are now the church), that He was referring (in this case) to Himself or His temple. He did exactly what He said and their was no symbolism.

Shall we agree to not argue heavily in favor of explaining away the scripture to not mean what it said, as a first course, and then look at possible symbolism secondly? That way we won't fall into the trap of never actually receiving the Word of God as it is written?

Anyway, the truth should stand on its own. I think that we ALL know that God is eternal, His kingdom absolutely without end, Jesus' reign without end, and many other passages about His Word being ALWAYS true. Let's look at those first as examples of what "forever" and "eternal" translate to, because you'll never have a more easily understood example of what it really means, Agreed?

 

[Alive_Again]

3 words are translated "forever" are in the King James Version.

<H5769>"owlam"
<G1519>"eis" - <G165>"aion" (used together)
<H5703>"ad"



God - His Name & Attributes (Forever) <H5769>

&#8220;And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever <H5769>, and this is my memorial unto all generations."
Ex 3:15

&#8220;O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever <H5769>. And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise. Blessed be the Lord God of Israel for ever and ever <H5769>. And all the people said, Amen, and praised the Lord."
1 Chron 16:34-36

&#8220;But the Lord shall endure for ever <H5769>: he hath prepared his throne for judgment."
Psalms 9:7

&#8220;His name shall endure for ever <H5769>: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed."
Psalms 72:17

"And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting <H5769>God."
Gen 21:33

&#8220;I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever <H5769> and ever <H5703>."
Psalms 45:17


His Word and Testimonies Forever

&#8220;The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever <H5769>."
Isaiah 40:8

&#8220;The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever <H5769>."
Psalms 12:6-7

&#8220;He hath remembered his covenant for ever <H5769>, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."
Psalms 105:8


<H5769>"owlam" (masculine noun)

1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a) ancient time, long time (of past)
b) (of future)
1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

Used 439 Times in AV &#8212; ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15, never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2, more 2, never + 0408 2, misc 6


One more look. This should be considered definitive as it is speaking of the attributes of God & His Word.


God and His Name & Attributes

...this is my name for ever <H5769>, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Ex 3:15
...for his mercy endureth for ever.<H5769>
...Blessed be the Lord God of Israel for ever and ever <H5769> 1 Chron 16:34-36
...But the Lord shall endure for ever <H5769> Psalms 9:7
...His name shall endure for ever<H5769> Psalms 72:17
...the name of the Lord, the everlasting <H5769>God Gen 21:33
...the people praise thee for ever <H5769> and ever<H5703>Psalms 45:17

<H5703>"Ad"
1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
a) ancient (of past time)
b) for ever (of future time)
1) of continuous existence
c) for ever (of God's existence)

Used 49 times AV &#8212; ever 41, everlasting 2, end 1, eternity 1, ever + 05769 1, evermore 1, old 1, perpetually 1​

 

[Alive_Again]

God and His Name & Attributes

<G1519>"eis" - <G165>"aion" (used together)

&#8220;And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for <G1519> ever <G165> and ever <G165>. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."
Rev 5:13-14

&#8220;Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for <G1519>ever <G165>."
Heb 13:8

&#8220;And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for <G1519> ever <G165> and ever <G165>, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for<G1519> ever <G165> and ever<G165>, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
Rev 4:9-11

&#8220;And sware by him that liveth for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:"
Rev 10:6


His Word and Testimonies (Forever)

&#8220;For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for <G1519> ever <G165>. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
1 Peter 1:23-25


<G1519>"eis"
1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among (preposition)

Used 1,774 times - AV &#8212; into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 322


<G165>"aion"

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Used 128 times - AV &#8212; ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5


God - His Name & Attributes

...Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever. <G165>Rev 5:13-14
...and worshipped Him that liveth for <G519> ever <G165>and ever <G165>Rev 5:13-14
...Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for <G1519>ever. <G165>Heb 13:8
...Him that sat on the throne, who liveth for <G1519> ever <G165> and ever <G165>Rev 4:9-11
...worship him that liveth for<G1519> ever<G165> and ever<G165>Rev 4:9-11
...Him that liveth for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>Rev 10:6

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Hi Alive,

Thanks for your response and your willingness to walk in dialog a little distance with a a heretic universalist.
Some thoughts on your last post, in no certain order....

To add value to our discussion, I would suggest adding the actual scripture, rather than the reference. Not everyone can recite them by chapter and verse (I can't!). I rely heavily on my Bible software. I've learned TONS using it. PTL.

I almost always leave Online Bible running in the background and assume most (many?) others who post on theology boards do as well. Sometimes I post entire verses, but this is a two-sided coin: theology boards are pretty much only good for the '10 second sound bite' type of discussion and some feel posting the verses adds too much to the length. Short attention spans and all. Also, I actually did post the relevant portion of Jn 2:19 at the beginning of my post, and this is the only verse I've used to date.

That church that the Holy Spirit has been laying (and confirming) foundational truth for centuries, and of course, much longer all along the way is the orthodox church I am referring to.

True. I have a great respect for the blood, sweat and tears that Godly men and women, led by the Spirit of God, have shed to study the Bible and hammer out its doctrines. But don't place too much weight in the fact that doctrines have been around for a long time. The Jewish religious leaders were also convinced that they were the very apple of God's eye and had and taught nothing in their doctrines but truth, and their doctrines were around many centuries as well. God doesn't count time as we do, and He reveals what He wishes when He wishes.

Not at all virtually exclusive. Many examples are given in parables, but they are meant to reflect man's very lives and the spiritual reality of the kingdom within. They actually confirm, not dismiss what is being said.

Generally, the structure of symbolic or figurative language is the same: the use of literal places, people, things, etc. to imply meaning which lands somewhere else. Look again at Jn 2:19. "Destroy" meant put to death, "this temple" meant His body and raising it in three days remained a literal three days. The death was literally true, the body was literally true, but truth in Jesus' meaning moved [from the perspective of the hearer or reader of His words] from the simple and obvious (literal) sense to a different [symbolic] sense. This is important because the modern church more every day insists on only a literal reading of a spiritual book.

It was understood by Him (and those who are now the church), that He was referring (in this case) to Himself or His temple. He did exactly what He said and their was no symbolism.

Please, really? No symbolism? Strive for intellectual honesty, Alive. The only reason the church understood Him is because it was revealed to the apostles after His death and was recorded. Be honest. Place yourself at the scene. Jesus had just overturned the moneychangers' tables and run them out of the temple. When He spoke the words in v. 19 He was standing in the very shadow of the temple, speaking to the crowd that gathered to question His authority to do such things. If you were there, what would you have thought? All anyone had to do is ask Him what He meant. Not one did. Thus we see spiritual death in action, which goes hand in hand with harsh literalism. They took Him at His literal word, even though He almost always spoke symbolically.

Shall we agree to not argue heavily in favor of explaining away the scripture to not mean what it said, as a first course, and then look at possible symbolism secondly? That way we won't fall into the trap of never actually receiving the Word of God as it is written?

Slippery wording my friend. You are essentially saying, "Why don't we agree that your notion of truth in symbolism only means you are explaining away the truth of the Scriptures, let us agree that the literal is the way it should really be read?"

Don't you realize that the literal--like the allegorical--is itself only an interpretive scheme? What the Bible "says" is much less important that what it means. That's my whole point of using Jn 2:19 up front, to show that Jesus, by speaking almost exclusively in metaphor and symbolism, is showing us what we should be doing, teaching us that what the Bible says is not necessarily what it means so we can concentrate on striving for the truth by unraveling its mysteries.

Actually, I agree with everything in the first paragraph in the op except your statement that hell is forever. The only place in the Bible I'm aware of that actually seems to make this claim is in Mat 25:46, and this is pretty easily refuted. So where does the Bible say hell is forever?

 

[Alive_Again]

It was understood by Him (and those who are now the church), that He was referring (in this case) to Himself or His temple. He did exactly what He said and their was no symbolism.

​

Please, really? No symbolism? Strive for intellectual honesty, Alive. The only reason the church understood Him is because it was revealed to the apostles after His death and was recorded.

Let me clarify. I am speaking not from the standpoint of those hearing His Words in those days. I am speaking from the standpoint of one reading the scripture and it spoke of His Body. Obviously the temple was His Body. I am saying that the scripture itself said that He spoke of His Body, so there is no mystery involved (for us).

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

That's as honest as you can get. We understand scripture in the way we do because we have the body of it. We have the meanings that Jesus explained to His disciples when the crowds heard parables without understanding.

I should also say based on my earlier statement about orthodoxy having the truth. I'm referring to the Holy Ghost church of which there has always been a remnant. It has influenced the denominations as we know it. The Catholics probably being the last to be affected in the 1960's. The other denominations were born primarily out of revival (save the Church of England). The church where the Holy Spirit speaks today. These are churches where He speaks up and out against heresy. Where the mind of Christ is released and more perfect ways are understood. Of course anyone can say that, but there is nonetheless that remnant and always has been. The gates of Hell have never prevailed against that church.

It's the cults that cry out that the whole church is wrong, has been wrong, etc. That is the lie they give the people they recruit because their churches have no fruit and they prey on this fact. But the real churches are surely out there.

Of course you have your "mixture" in many churches. You can usually feel it in the church even! It always finds a way to manifest and make itself known. Those churches don't have the move of God you get when you're working His program and not man's.

All anyone had to do is ask Him what He meant. Not one did. Thus we see spiritual death in action, which goes hand in hand with harsh literalism.

Harsh literalism? That's a new one. We take Him at His literal Word because we understand the context that it was given. Be free to take the entire counsel of God in perspective and not limit ourselves to who was there when He spoke.

Slippery wording my friend. You are essentially saying, "Why don't we agree that your notion of truth in symbolism only means you are explaining away the truth of the Scriptures, let us agree that the literal is the way it should really be read?"

What I am saying is, why don't we take passages like the devil being thrown into the lake of fire, like the devil is actually going to be thrown into a lake of fire, just like He said he would do. That's not too slippery, right? We can look for secondary meanings, but let's not lose what is said trying to spiritualize the Word in a way where what it no longer means what it really says.

If people struggle with God punishing someone "for ever", then their objection will be based on their concept of God's mercy, not what the Greek says. If all of the attributes of God are forever, and the same words are used to describe the devil's punishment, etc., then their won't be much of a leg to stand on, if you really want to talk about intellectual honesty.

...so we can concentrate on striving for the truth by unraveling its mysteries.

Yes, we'll look for mysteries too, but let's see if any plain truth is present first. That's all I mean.

Actually, I agree with everything in the first paragraph in the op except your statement that hell is forever.

I'm going to finish my demonstration of the verses dealing with forever, eternal, eternity, etc. and any other words in the Bible relating to something that does not end. In the manner I have it listed, you can see how many times these words are translated in a different way. Let's see what the Greek says and we'll compare the words used about God with the words used about Hell or the lake of fire.

The Word should speak for itself. We won't give any room to slip anything contrary in without it being evident to all.

 

[Alive_Again]

Destruction (Forever)

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for <G1519>ever <G165>and ever<G165>: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Rev 14:11

“And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."
Rev 15:7

“And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."
Rev 19:3

“These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for<G1519> ever <G165>.”
2 Peter 2:17

“Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for<G1519> ever <G165>."
Jude 1:13

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."
Rev 20:10

“Thou lovest all devouring words, O thou deceitful tongue. God shall likewise destroy thee for ever<H5331>, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah."
Psalms 52:4-5

<H5331>"Netsach" (masculine noun)

1) eminence, perpetuity, strength, victory, enduring, everlastingness
a) eminence
b) enduring of life
c) endurance in time, perpetual, continual, unto the end
d) everlastingness, ever

Used 43 times - AV — ever 24, never 4, perpetual 3, always 2, end 2, victory 2, strength 2, alway 1, constantly 1, evermore 1, never + 03808 1


<G1519>"eis"<G165>"aion" (used together)


<G1519>"eis" (preposition)
1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

Used 1774 times - AV — into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 322


<G165>"aion" (masculine noun)

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Used 128 times AV — ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5


Destruction (Forever)

...And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for <G1519>ever <G165>and ever<G165>Rev 14:11

...God, who liveth for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 15:7

...her smoke rose up for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 19:3

...the mist of darkness is reserved for<G1519> ever <G165>.”2 Peter 2:17

...reserved the blackness of darkness for<G1519> ever <G165>."Jude 1:13

shall be tormented day and night for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 20:10

...God shall likewise destroy thee for ever<H5331>,...and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah." Psalms 52:4-5

 

[Alive_Again]

Comparison - Notice that the same Greek words are used to describe some of God's eternal attributes AND the length of torment spoken of in the New Testament.

This should pretty much say it all without any arguing.


God's Eternal Name & Attributes

...Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever. <G165>Rev 5:13-14
...and worshipped Him that liveth for <G519> ever <G165>and ever <G165>Rev 5:13-14
...Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for <G1519>ever. <G165>Heb 13:8
...Him that sat on the throne, who liveth for <G1519> ever <G165> and ever <G165>Rev 4:9-11
...worship him that liveth for<G1519> ever<G165> and ever<G165>Rev 4:9-11
...Him that liveth for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>Rev 10:6
...God, who liveth for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 15:7

Destruction (Forever)

...the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for <G1519>ever <G165>and ever<G165>Rev 14:11
...her smoke rose up for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 19:3
...the mist of darkness is reserved for<G1519> ever <G165>.”2 Peter 2:17
...reserved the blackness of darkness for<G1519> ever <G165>."Jude 1:13
...shall be tormented day and night for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 20:10
...God shall likewise destroy thee for ever<H5331>,...and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah." Psalms 52:4-5


<G1519>"eis" (preposition)
1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

Used 1774 times - AV — into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 322


<G165>"aion" (masculine noun)

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Used 128 times AV — ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5

So the word "age" is rendered only two times for "aion". This is not a good argument for maintaining it has been misunderstood or mistranslated.


Here's the same passage in the Old and New Testaments.

For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for <G1519>ever<G165>. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
1 Peter 1:24-25

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever<H5769>.
Isaiah 40:7-8

As we have seen..

God and His Name & Attributes

...this is my name for ever <H5769>, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Ex 3:15
...for his mercy endureth for ever.<H5769>
...Blessed be the Lord God of Israel for ever and ever <H5769> 1 Chron 16:34-36
...But the Lord shall endure for ever <H5769> Psalms 9:7
...His name shall endure for ever<H5769> Psalms 72:17
...the name of the Lord, the everlasting <H5769>God Gen 21:33
...the people praise thee for ever <H5769> and ever<H5703>Psalms 45:17

 

[MikeBigg]

I'm jumping the gun on the always and forever study, and here is a good place to do it. It should be in depth and what it reveals should provide a definitive picture of what God means when He says forever.

God's existence and kingdom is always and forever. The Word indicates that Hell is forever and ever. Taken at face value, our rewards will run concurrently.[/B] Some think of it as only an "age", as though it will run it's course, and then we'll start over, or something like that. Some believe those being punished will get out and eventually be saved(!).

Well, Alive_Again was kind enough to PM me to say that he had started this thread - it came out of another thread about universalism and hell in which I said I was thinking of starting a word study thread on eternity.

For me, in order to find out what the Bible says about a subject, it is important to lay to one side our preconceived ideas and doctrines.

Unfortunately, by stating that the Bible indicates "Hell is forever and ever" yet alternative ideas are presented as only thoughts, I'm afraid this thread won't be able to do what I would have liked it to do.

 

[Alive_Again]

Destruction (Forever)

...the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for <G1519>ever <G165>and ever<G165>Rev 14:11
...her smoke rose up for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 19:3
...the mist of darkness is reserved for<G1519> ever <G165>.&#8221;2 Peter 2:17
...reserved the blackness of darkness for<G1519> ever <G165>."Jude 1:13
...shall be tormented day and night for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 20:10
...God shall likewise destroy thee for ever<H5331>,...and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah." Psalms 52:4-5

It has been suggested to lay aside our existing beliefs to see what the Bible really says. This is what it really says. This is why we believe what we do and why it is preached in the church.

 

[MikeBigg]

Well, in the thread where I mentioned I was thinking of starting a thread to study the word "eternal", I also said that I don't think it would work well in these parts.

This is why. There is no scope at all to come to a new conclusion (if a new conclusion were appropriate) based on the absoluteness of Alive_Again's posts.

There are sincere Christian people who come to a different conclusion based on their studies.

This thread was doomed to fail from the first post. I shall not take any further part in it.

Mike

 

[Alive_Again]

Well, in the thread where I mentioned I was thinking of starting a thread to study the word "eternal", I also said that I don't think it would work well in these parts.

I know in Unorthodox the Universalists have free speech there. I have not condemned anyone's thinking and have only posted the scriptures (thus far) that speak of the word "for ever". They apply to God and His attributes and also speak of punishment and they are both the same words. The Hebrew word is different, but we have the same scripture in Greek and the Word is the same one used elsewhere describing "for ever" as attributes of God's faithfulness, word, and being.

This is why. There is no scope at all to come to a new conclusion (if a new conclusion were appropriate) based on the absoluteness of Alive_Again's posts.

I don't see a "new" conclusion. Based on these factors, the Word speaks for itself. What is left are the thoughts of man. There are other words that speak of the passage of time, but based on the factors I listed, they appear to be definitive (on their own).

There are sincere Christian people who come to a different conclusion based on their studies.

I'm assuming the Greek and Hebrew are going to change.

This thread was doomed to fail from the first post. I shall not take any further part in it.

That is your option. I thought the way this has begun was extremely fair since I only used the scriptures and the Greek and Hebrew. It demonstrates how many other times the words were translated a different way. This keeps someone from saying it was rendered improperly because it was better rendered other times elsewhere.

I'll look some more, but the words do speak for themselves. If you took the matter to court, you'd find pretty conclusive evidence, that in the amount of usage, and in the verses that speak of eternal punishment that I have left few stones unturned even now. We already know of the eternalness of God's eternal power and Godhead, so we have this as the absolute standard by which unlimited duration can be measured.

I think people in different religions would acknowledge God the same way. He is the standard to judge by. His attributes beyond all controversy.

 

[MikeBigg]

That is your option. I thought the way this has begun was extremely fair since I only used the scriptures and the Greek and Hebrew.

Yes. My opinion. My words = my opinion. So no surprises. It may satisfy your aims for this thread, but not the aims I had in mind when I suggested it.

As for being fair - you had conclusion in the first post.

My last post in this thread for real this time.

Alive_Again, I ask you not to continue our conversation in this thread, but please continue with any other debate with others in this thread.

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[Alive_Again]

As for being fair - you had conclusion in the first post.

I answer this for the sake of any others who have read the statement. As Mike has chosen to not be a part of this, I would respect his choice but since the intent of this thread is to really find out what the Word states about things, then I would answer the above statement (to all).

The first "conclusion" is that in the comparison of the Greek and Hebrew for the word(s) "for ever":

That it is clearly demonstrated that the words used to describe the eternal, unending attributes of God's Word, His eternal nature, and kingdom, are the EXACT SAME words used to describe "for ever", the unending quality of the punishment described in the Word of God in the New Testament. There is no deviance whatsoever.

We even have one passage in the Old Testament that is rendered in the New Testament with the same words, which further demonstrates the accuracy of the words used in both passages.

We also know how many times those words (in the Greek and Hebrew) are used in the King James Version of the Bible. We know how many other words in English are used to represent those words. The preponderance of the evidence so far, is that they are accurately represented. All we have to go by are the texts. We went beyond the English rendering to ensure that translators didn't take great liberty. Thus far, that is as fair as you can be.

I am not finished examining verses, and will continue to look at passages relating to punishment and judgment. I will present them and we can all judge them.

IMO, it would be unfair to state that in the majority of cases in the New Testament, the word "age" has been used, so as to misrepresent the words "for ever". Only two times in the King James has the word "age" been used instead of "for ever".

I am not finished looking at this, so we won't rule out conflicting thought outright, but it will have to live with what we is already demonstrated. Fair enouigh?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Thats a lotta scriptures....