Heaven, Hell, Justice, and all of us.

[Strivax]

And I mean all! From whatever race, nationality, faith, creed, colour, sex, gender, sexuality, etc.

I've been thinking about this for quite some time, off and on, and arrived at views that are probably heretical (though that's nothing new for me!) There is, of course, Jesus (John 14:6 KJV):

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

In the past, I have tried to excuse Him by interpreting this verse to mean 'No one comes to the Father without sharing in at least some of Jesus' way of being.' But, to be honest, I have never found this workaround completely satisfactory.

My problem with it all is this: whatever the Bible may say about 'filthy rags', in my happy experience, most people, most of the time, are reasonably decent, reasonably virtuous, and reasonably good individuals, whatever their background. But a Muslim, from birth, born into a Muslim family and Muslim nation, is taught to regard Jesus, at best, as a minor prophet, and to disbelieve He ever died on the Cross. Hindus, Buddhists and Jews all have their own takes. Yet most of them, as I say, are reasonably respectable. It does not, to my way of thinking, seem just to penalise them simply because of their accident of birth. And God, we know, is just.

So, I guess my question to the forum is this: is Heaven no more than an afterlife club for like minded Christian sheep, or does anyone, reasonably deserving, get to join? In other words, is God the loving Father of all mankind, or just a happy few of us?

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Tolworth John]

My problem with it all is this: whatever the Bible may say about 'filthy rags', in my happy experience, most people, most of the time, are reasonably decent, reasonably virtuous, and reasonably good individuals, whatever their background.

Yes when viewed from our perspective you are right.

The problem is our perspective is warpped and does not give us a true picture.

God is perfect, perfectly holy, perfectly just, perfectly merciful etc etc etc yet you view him as cruel and injust, so the question is are you right or are you wrong?

Certainly from a straight forward reading of the bible you are wrong, as the bible say ' All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God' and There is noone who is rightous and from that view point our ' good' life is not a ' good lfe '.

One might have a 'liberal' view of any thing, speed limits on the road, but try arguing your 'liberal' interpretation of a speed limit with a traffic cop.
The same applys to God and his laws, who is it that set the rules and will apply judgement, a liberal conscenous or a Holy, Just and Rightous God?

 

[Strivax]

... you view him as cruel and injust ...

I'm not saying that at all. In fact, at one point in my OP, I specifically say 'And God, we know, is just'. So, to clarify, I suppose what I am saying is that I find that divine justice inconsistent with current Christian teaching, doctrine and dogma on and around the topic of who, exactly, gets to go to heaven. So, it seems I must make a choice. Heretic that I am, I have decided to put my trust in God's justice, rather than conventional Christianity.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[d taylor]

And I mean all! From whatever race, nationality, faith, creed, colour, sex, gender, sexuality, etc.

I've been thinking about this for quite some time, off and on, and arrived at views that are probably heretical (though that's nothing new for me!) There is, of course, Jesus (John 14:6 KJV):
In the past, I have tried to excuse Him by interpreting this verse to mean 'No one comes to the Father without sharing in at least some of Jesus' way of being.' But, to be honest, I have never found this workaround completely satisfactory.

My problem with it all is this: whatever the Bible may say about 'filthy rags', in my happy experience, most people, most of the time, are reasonably decent, reasonably virtuous, and reasonably good individuals, whatever their background. But a Muslim, from birth, born into a Muslim family and nation, is taught to regard Jesus, at best, as a minor prophet, and to disbelieve He ever died on the Cross. Hindus, Buddhists and Jews all have their own takes. Yet most of them, as I say, are reasonably respectable. It does not, to my way of thinking, seem just to penalise them simply because of their accident of birth. And God, we know, is just.

So, I guess my question to the forum is this: is Heaven no more than an afterlife club for like minded Christian sheep, or does anyone, reasonably deserving, get to join? In other words, is God the loving Father of all mankind, or just a happy few of us?

Best wishes, Strivax.

I see your understanding of what God is offering as actually a misunderstanding. God is offering fallen humanity the free gift of Eternal Life.

No matter who they are. But God has set a condition to receive this free gift. The only condition God requires to receive His free gift of Eternal Life. Is to believe that Jesus is The promised Messiah/Son of God, form the prophecies of The Tanakh. If a person believes this about Jesus, they can trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life

It is not about a club or spending time in heaven (which is not the permanent home for believers) but about believing God promise of Eternal Life to anyone who will have faith in His Son.

God is God so He can establish any way for a fallen humanity to again have life. And He has declared that way to come only through His Son.

It is not about sin as Jesus came and took away the sin of the world. It is about life (eternal) and who wants it, who wants to cross over from death to life. God is there ready and waiting to cross over anyone who will trust in His Son, The Messiah.

 

[Strivax]

I see your understanding of what God is offering as actually a misunderstanding. God is offering fallen humanity the free gift of Eternal Life.

Hmmm. You're not describing a free gift. As you put it, it's a bargain. Believe X, and you can have heaven. Disbelieve X, and you can't. And, as I have already pointed out in the OP, it's not even a fair bargain, given the distribution of people and faiths geographically and historically. Some have found and will find it far easier to believe X than others. So much for God's perfect justice. I think you need, as I did, to make a choice between God and Christianity on this one.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[d taylor]

Hmmm. You're not describing a free gift. As you put it, it's a bargain. Believe X, and you can have heaven. Disbelieve X, and you can't. And, as I have already pointed out in the OP, it's not even a fair bargain, given the distribution of people and faiths geographically and historically. Some have found and will find it far easier to believe X than others. So much for God's perfect justice. I think you need, as I did, to make a choice between God and Christianity on this one.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Maybe you do not understand what the word bargain means. Because receiving God's free gift f Eternal Life is not a bargain. As a believer is not giving or doing anything in exchange for God, for their gift of Eternal Life.

 

[Strivax]

Google has:

Bargain: an agreement between two or more people or groups as to what each will do for the other.

Do X, get Y; don't do X, don't get Y seems to fit that description to me.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[d taylor]

Google has:



Do X, get Y; don't do X, don't get Y seems to fit that description to me.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Again what are you doing for God. If you are saying believing that is not doing anything for God. So what are you doing for God in exchange for Eternal Life. Are you going to keep his yard up, or give Him fresh fruit, what are you exchanging for your Eternal Life life gift.

 

[Strivax]

Again what are you doing for God. If you are saying believing that is not doing anything for God. So what are you doing for God in exchange for Eternal Life. Are you going to keep his yard up, or give Him fresh fruit, what are you exchanging for your Eternal Life life gift.

Well, according to your previous post, I am believing His Son Jesus is The Messiah. You, and Christianity, posit a God for whom that is important.

But this isn't about me. (As it happens, I do so believe). It's about those who have been brought up and socialised into other traditions, and with perfectly good reason therefore don't believe, and (according to you) don't get Heaven, and how you square that with divine justice?

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[d taylor]

Well, according to your previous post, I am believing His Son Jesus is The Messiah. You, and Christianity, posit a God for whom that is important.

But this isn't about me. (As it happens, I do so believe). It's about those who have been brought up and socialised into other traditions, and with perfectly good reason therefore don't believe, and (according to you) don't get Heaven, and how you square that with divine justice?

Best wishes, Strivax.

If that was just one single group that this was happening to, then you may be able to say God is unjust. But since this happens across the human population without prejudiced. Then God is just in saying you did not believe in The Messiah. So when God opens up the book of life and does not find their name written there. He is just in sending these people to the only place they can go.

Because there are people who have heard about God their whole life and yet do not believe. and there are people who may have never heard about God. Who will be judged justly by God and be properly place for eternally.

 

[Strivax]

If that was just one single group that this was happening to, then you may be able to say God is unjust.

You haven't got it yet, have you? I am not saying God is ujust. Indeed, I am betting on His justice, with my eternal life the stake. I am just saying conventional Christianity is wrong on this one, for the reasons I have given.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

If that was just one single group that this was happening to...

I'm not at all sure about that. Favouritism is equally unjust, and you and Christianity seem to be happy with the idea that God loves us all, but has favourites. It doesn't work in families, it doesn't work in nation states (where it is called corruption, nepotism or cronyism), and I think God, fortunately, has a better idea for His Kingdom than this.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Tolworth John]

I'm not saying that at all. In fact, at one point in my OP, I specifically say 'And God, we know, is just'. So, to clarify, I suppose what I am saying is that I find that divine justice inconsistent with current Christian teaching, doctrine and dogma on and around the topic of who, exactly, gets to go to heaven. So, it seems I must make a choice. Heretic that I am, I have decided to put my trust in God's justice, rather than conventional Christianity.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I apologise for making a false assumption.


What you leave out of your argument is that man is alienated from God, it is not a case of two friendly parties making an agreement, but of a hostile party, man, being brought back into a relationship with God.

 

[d taylor]

You haven't got it yet, have you? I am not saying God is ujust. Indeed, I am betting on His justice, with my eternal life the stake. I am just saying conventional Christianity is wrong on this one, for the reasons I have given.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I think it is you who do not have it. That is if you believe in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life, then you have passed from judgment/death to life.

So why are you counting on God's justice, what do you think you will be judged for.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

So are you saying it is God's fault that believers went out to the whole world and told people about The Messiah. But many did not believe, so God is at fault for their lack of belief.

 

[Strivax]

I think it is you who do not have it. That is if you believe in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life, then you have passed from judgment/death to life.

So why are you counting on God's justice, what do you think you will be judged for.

Frankly, because if it is all as you say it is, I want no part of it. It's an integrity thing.

And I think we all get judged, Christians and non-Christians alike, born again or not, elect or not. And we shall all have to answer for our own sins and failings.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

I apologise for making a false assumption.


What you leave out of your argument is that man is alienated from God...

Speak for yourself, why don't you? I am perfectly happy with my relationship with God, and He seems OK with me, despite the fact that relationship is not exactly orthodox.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

-
​

So are you saying it is God's fault that believers went out to the whole world and told people about The Messiah. But many did not believe, so God is at fault for their lack of belief.

No, I'm saying that those many doubtless had other ways to explain the world to themselves, and how it works, which, given their cultural background, made more sense to them. And that it would be unjust to penalise them for this.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[d taylor]

Frankly, because if it is all as you say it is, I want no part of it. It's an integrity thing.

And I think we all get judged, Christians and non-Christians alike, born again or not, elect or not. And we shall all have to answer for our own sins and failings.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Nope there is no answering for sins. What do you think, Jesus was not able to take away the sin of the world on the cross.

 

[Strivax]

Hmmm. Come Judgement Day, then, I think you are in for an unpleasant surprise. And no, He wasn't, because that was not what the crucifixion was about. Truth is, we have to accept responsibilty for ourselves, and our thoughts, words and deeds, and expect to be held accountable for them, because anythng else would be unjust.

Or are you suggesting that, so long as we believe Jesus was the Messiah, God is OK with anything we do? Sounds like a recipe for social disaster, to me. And it makes a mockery of all Jesus' teaching. Why would He bother? Why not just announce who He was, cure a few people to prove it, and climb onto His cross?

Best wishes, Strivax.