god given values

[Angel75]

"Why do christians only think god can give them value?

If we found life on another planet, and (hypothetical) somehow it was proven god did not create them, would you think they are without value and therefore without basic rights and respect etc?"

I asked this in another thread,  and the person who replied only answered the first question ignoring the second...I asked them again to answer but didnt get one. Can any christians who agree with their answer that "yes in fact only god can give you value" answer the second one for me?? Yes i know it is far fetched, finding a race on another planet. Yes i know it is next to impossible to porve another god created that specific race, but humor me kay

 

[Didymus]

I ve never thought about this hmmm does life only have worth if my God created it ?

 

[Aaron11]

The perspective that a Christian says that God is the only way to find true value, is not a statement that is an arguement for the existance of God. For one, value is subjective. Two, it is taking the supposition that there is absolute truth and that God is the creator and redeemer that we read of in the bible.

I believe that the only way to end up with a truly valuable life is through God. This doesn't argue for or against God's existence. Instead this illustrates a conclusion I can get to with the founding principal of faith in God.

The fact of your illustration (the aliens) is that I do not believe that to be true. If I believed it to be true then obviously I would have to figure out if the aliens were valuable, what their purpose was, etc. Since I do not believe this, why would I attempt to explain something that I see as impossible?

 

[Received]

Well, that's a big hypothetical for me. In order for the whole process of evolution to work, science needs solid evidence (it is science, mind you) that life evolved on other planets and perhaps somehow got transferred from planet to planet as we argued over with ALH84001 - the Antartic wonder found in '96. That itself is hard, especially considering that hard-core anti-God persons - the solid materialists - must not take anything on faith, and not jump to conclusions, but hold their empirical calling.

And even on top of that, I would not be satisfied with supposed life on other planets etc. giving us inductive (because this is all we can get with science - the ever-growing irony) proof for lack of belief in a creator, for when you go back and back you must conclude that it is impossible for matter to create matter - there must be a transcending 'spiritual' cause at the root of the matter, and by ceasing to call this God, I wonder how much many would bite their tongues.

 

[Aaron11]

Good point C.S.

Science consistently breaks its own rules anyhow... Personally I think science might be a little overrated.

 

[Quath]

Yesterday at 09:18 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #5

Good point C.S.

Science consistently breaks its own rules anyhow... Personally I think science might be a little overrated.

Where does science break its own rules?  It either means you don't understand the rules or you are one of the best scientists out there and should set the science community straight.

Scott (Quath)

 

[Angel75]

okay. now that it is clear some people don't understand the term hypothetical....

how about if i just ask nicely PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE answer for me??

Maybe I should ask pray4Israel directly, since she is the one who didnt completely answer the first time.

Again, since only god gives us value, if an alien race (or even better since it is more realistic)....clones became part of the human race. Would you consider them second class citizens, not worthy of respect? According to you, since we made them, they cant have value.

 

[Aaron11]

To quath:

The funniest one is, (not a quote but a paraphrase), living things can not come from non-living things. So try to explain evolution into that one...

When I say that science is over-rated. I dont mean I am smarter, more knowledgable in the sciences, or can disect a frog better than you or a professional scientist. What I am saying, is that we gain a false sense of security in science. We have seen science change views on things 180 degrees, often. Why put your total faith in a field of study that is everchanging? If you are going to do that, at least admit that it is not always true, it is just what we can make sense of what we have so far. Think of all the crazy ideas that have been passed around in the last 500 years in science...



To Angel75:

You think that we would CREATE clones? HAHAHA! No... You should read up on what cloning really is. It takes a living thing and manipulates. Does not create.

I guess you could say that YOU can create a person also (well with the help of a male's sex cell). If you think that cloning someone would be to create someone, you are just plain silly.

Hypothetical questions shouldn't have such silly conclusions written into them.

 

[Received]

Not to mention George Berkeley making fools out of the materialists by claiming they can't even prove such matter exists.

 

[Blackhawk]

Today at 12:38 AM Angel75 said this in Post #1

"Why do christians only think god can give them value?

If we found life on another planet, and (hypothetical) somehow it was proven god did not create them, would you think they are without value and therefore without basic rights and respect etc?"

I asked this in another thread,  and the person who replied only answered the first question ignoring the second...I asked them again to answer but didnt get one. Can any christians who agree with their answer that "yes in fact only god can give you value" answer the second one for me?? Yes i know it is far fetched, finding a race on another planet. Yes i know it is next to impossible to porve another god created that specific race, but humor me kay

The problem with your first question is that most if not all Christians here do not believe this will ever occur but the real problem is your second question.  I do not understand what you expect one to say who believes that only God can give one value.  It is kind of like asking an atheist how would your ethical theories change if you found proof that God exists.  The only answer would be something like well I would have to change my theories in the light of the understanding that God does exist.  See how this kind of question can only give real general answers that do not help much? 

 

[Quath]

Today at 08:54 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #8

To quath:

The funniest one is, (not a quote but a paraphrase), living things can not come from non-living things. So try to explain evolution into that one...

Pick the simpliest thing you say is alive.  It could be a virus or cell or whatever.  Say you think it is a virus.  Can we take lifeless atoms and attach the atoms to copy the blueprint of this virus?  If so we have created life from the nonliving atoms.

If you think it is a cell, we could do the same procedure but it will just take a little longer.  So therefore we can make life from nonlife.

Scott (Quath)

 

[Angel75]

Today at 06:04 PM Blackhawk said this in Post #10



The problem with your first question is that most if not all Christians here do not believe this will ever occur but the real problem is your second question.  I do not understand what you expect one to say who believes that only God can give one value.  It is kind of like asking an atheist how would your ethical theories change if you found proof that God exists.  The only answer would be something like well I would have to change my theories in the light of the understanding that God does exist.  See how this kind of question can only give real general answers that do not help much? 

And I am able to answer that question for you. If i had irrefutable proof the christian god existed,  I still would not worship him. I have participated in a few of those threads. Now answer mine. please??? (or was that your answer,  that you would in fact change your theory that only your god gives us value.)

 

[Blackhawk]

Today at 06:17 PM Angel75 said this in Post #12
And I am able to answer that question for you. If i had irrefutable proof the christian god existed,  I still would not worship him. I have participated in a few of those threads. Now answer mine. please??? (or was that your answer,  that you would in fact change your theory that only your god gives us value.)

But telling me that you would not worship him really does not answer my question about how your ethical theories would change.  It is just a general answer.  But anyways if it is proven to me that there is other beings that were not created by God then I would most likely change my answer.  The only other option is to say they do not have any value which I would go against what I believe.  However I do not see this occurring ever.

 

[Angel75]

Today at 04:54 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #8




To Angel75:

You think that we would CREATE clones? HAHAHA! No... You should read up on what cloning really is. It takes a living thing and manipulates. Does not create.

I guess you could say that YOU can create a person also (well with the help of a male's sex cell). If you think that cloning someone would be to create someone, you are just plain silly.

Hypothetical questions shouldn't have such silly conclusions written into them.

If you are afraid of your answer, you can just tell me that instead of trying to laugh at my knowledge of cloning. I am not going to argue over semantics. In my eyes, it is creating a human from just a single cell as opposed to sexual reproduction. The word create worked just fine there for me. 

 

[Angel75]

Today at 06:24 PM Blackhawk said this in Post #13



But telling me that you would not worship him really does not answer my question about how your ethical theories would change.  It is just a general answer.  But anyways if it is proven to me that there is other beings that were not created by God then I would most likely change my answer.  The only other option is to say they do not have any value which I would go against what I believe.  However I do not see this occurring ever.

Not being able to worship him is because I couldn't change my ethics. If i could, I would be able to follow him. This is of course assuming all the bible attributes/old testament stories are true.

 

[My Higher Self]

Today at 11:54 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #8

You think that we would CREATE clones? HAHAHA! No... You should read up on what cloning really is. It takes a living thing and manipulates. Does not create.

Haha...perhaps you should read up on cloning. Clones certainly don't create themselves. Yes it does take living tissue, but it is tissue that would otherwise produce nothing without the manipulation of mankind, and if left to develop, the clone would physically be an exact replica of the donor. It does not take sperm and eggs.

Besides all you are doing is avoiding the question Angel was posing, and she was trying to put it in a slightly more realistic setting then aliens.

What I would like to know is, would those clones have spirits, or souls? Would they be worthy of entering the kingdom of heaven, or would they be a souless creation of mankind?

 

[Aaron11]

Blackhawk is smart. Angel, you should listen to what we are saying instead of searching for a fool to answer your questions just so you can feel superior.

 

[My Higher Self]

Today at 10:35 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #17

Blackhawk is smart.

What does this have to do with the price of eggs in china? So far he is the only one to make an honest attempt at an anwer for what she proposed. Unlike many people here, he is willing to embrace a hypothetical situation and come to some sort of answer instead of just saying "...that couldn't happen"

 

Today at 10:35 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #17 Angel, you should listen to what we are saying instead of searching for a fool to answer your questions just so you can feel superior.

Trying to shoot holes in someones question has no pertinent value, if you don't want to attempt to answer the hypothetical questions and what ifs, then don't post in the thread, its very simple. She is not looking for a fool to answer a question, she is looking for anyone, blackhawk so far being the only one making an attempt.  

 

[Aaron11]

Quath said in # 11 that we could make life by taking blueprints of virus's and/or cells and putting the elements togehter to make the virus or cell... do you realize that this can not be done? Unless I am misunderstanding you, you think that we can take materials and make cells? HAHA. You do not know the complexity of a single cell... (not to mention, evolutionists think the elements fell together in this way... haha)

 

[Aaron11]

In response to My Higher Self,

Ok, I will answer the hypothetical.

If aliens existed that weren't created by God, I do not know what I would believe, it probably depends on what color the aliens were.

My point in dissing the question earlier was that hypotheticals are often used disgustingly. Asking someone what they would believe if all of their beliefs were totally wrong, proves nothing. What if I pose the question for evolutionists: What if God really created it all? Then what would you believe? Well, that is a foolish question. What if I asked an athiest, "What would you think if you absolutely knew that God exists?" It would establish no logic for or against either side.

I just have seen the rediculous hypothetical questions lead to an arguement against the one who chooses to grant the assumption... thats no way to argue. The point isn't, "What would happen if reality was different?". I think the point is more, "What is reality?"or maybe better stated... "What is the truth?"