Formal Debate Gallery: Was Jesus Crucified on a Friday?

[ThomasDa]

The Sabbaths refered to in Mat. 28:1 actually is refering the first of the seven sabbaths that must be counted to determine the proper date of Pentecost.
Although there were two Sabbaths that week, Thursday and Saturday, that is not what is being referenced here.
You are however correct that sabbath should be plural in Mat. 28:1.

 

[ThomasDa]

Sorry. I'm in the wrong place. You were right.
My bad...sorry...sorry

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Actually Mat. 27:63 and Mk. 8:31 both say after three days.

Yes, they do say "after three days." And Matthew regarded the phrase as equivalent to "until the third day."

Matthew 27:63-64 63 "Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.' 64 So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day.

That supports the idea of an inclusive 3 days. It also shows that the Bible writers aren't using terms in the precise manner that would support the literal 72 hour view.

Between these and the places that say on the third day we find the 72 hrs.

If Jesus was in the tomb:
Day 1 - 24 hours
Day 2 - 24 hours
Day 3 - 24 hours

Then how could Jesus have been resurrected on Day 3 - the third day?

Anything happening on the third day is - by definition - less than a literal 72 hours. Anything happening after 72 hours is - again by definition - the fourth day.

Here is a website for an organization that used to emphasize the Wed crucifixion, but then changed their minds about it:

http://wcg.org/lit/jesus/threedays.htm


LDG

 

[ThomasDa]

LDG go back and read post # 3 in this thread. Everything is spelled out step by step. It's undeniable.
Put your bias aside for a little while and study the Bible references and chronilogical order laied out in that post.
If you can put aside the misinformation taught by this world you might see the truth.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

A literal translation of Matthew 28:1 in the Greek comes out like this:

'After the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of sabbaths...'

Notice that Mary comes to the tomb after the 'sabbaths', which is plural. This indicates to me that we had a holiday sabbath and a weekly sabbath back-to-back.

"The Sabbaths" - Greek twv sabbatwn - is plural, and in the plural its a very frequent term for referring to the weekly Sabbath. The same Greek phrase in found here in the LXX:

Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Ex 20:8 has only one weekly Sabbath in view. The Greek phrase is also found in these places:

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.

Acts 13:14 but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.

Acts 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.

There are more, but these are all references to one single Sabbath day, even though sabbatwn is plural in the Greek.

'First of sabbaths' is quickly recognizable as the common Jewish way of referring to the first day of the week. Yom Rishon Shabbat translates as 'First day of the Sabbath.' Monday is 'the second day of the sabbath', etc.

I agree.


LDG

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

LDG go back and read post # 3 in this thread. Everything is spelled out step by step. It's undeniable.

I already read it and replied to it. My reply to post #3 is post #12.

And the Wed crucifixion is certainly not "undeniable." There are far too many issues and questions raised against it that are not being addressed.

Put your bias aside for a little while and study the Bible references and chronilogical order laied out in that post.

I already have, and it raised more issues and questions than it answered. There are a lot of problems with the Wed crucifixion view...

If you can put aside the misinformation taught by this world you might see the truth.

The truth is that Jesus rose again from the dead. Its not necessary for a Christian to believe Jesus was literally in the grave for 72 hours. Nor is it necessary for a Christian to believe Jesus died on a Friday. Its a non-salvation issue.


LDG

 

[WailingWall]

Hi LamorakDesGalis
What do you think of scripture below?

EZEK.8 [13] He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.[14] Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat WOMEN WEEPING FOR TAMMUZ.[15] Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and THOU SHALT SEE GREATER ABOMINATIONS than these.[16] And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and THEIR FACES TOWARD THE EAST; AND THEY WORSHIPPED THE SUN TOWARD THE EAST.

Looks just like an easter sunrise service to me. The WORD calls it an abomination. Everywhere i loked up the name tammuz i also found the goddess ishtar (pronounced easter) and the worship of baal.Tammuz was killed by a wild boar. Semiramus is said to have WEPT for Tammuz 4o days, after which, he would be resurrected. This was during the springtime, when crops were planted. Hence, the eastern sunrise service honoring the resurrection, following the 40 days of "weeping for Tammuz", better known as LENT. LamorakDesGalis, what do easter eggs and rabbits have to do with Jesus? Do they have anything to do with the fertility god ishtar? Sure do. Is this ok with our God?

DEUT. 12 [29] When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; [30] Take heed to thyself that thou BE NOT SNARED BY FOLLOWING THEM, after that they be destroyed from before thee; AND THAT THOU ENQUIRE NOT AFTER THEIR GODS, SAYING, HOW DID THESE NATIONS SERVE THEIR GODS? EVEN SO WILL I DO LIKEWISE. [31] Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [32] WHAT THING SOEVER I COMMAND YOU, OBSERVE TO DO IT: THOU SHALT NOT ADD THERETO, NOR DIMINISH FROM IT.

Not according to the Word.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Hi LamorakDesGalis
What do you think of scripture below?

EZEK.8 [13] He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.[14] Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat WOMEN WEEPING FOR TAMMUZ.[15] Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and THOU SHALT SEE GREATER ABOMINATIONS than these.[16] And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and THEIR FACES TOWARD THE EAST; AND THEY WORSHIPPED THE SUN TOWARD THE EAST.

Looks just like an easter sunrise service to me.

I've never known or heard of women to weep in an Easter sunrise service. And I have never seen or heard men worshipping the sun on that day either.

Ezek 8:13 isn't referring to a future Easter sunrise service. Its showing the explicit idolatry of the Jews in Judea, just before the destruction of Jerusalem.

The WORD calls it an abomination. Everywhere i loked up the name tammuz i also found the goddess ishtar (pronounced easter) and the worship of baal.Tammuz was killed by a wild boar. Semiramus is said to have WEPT for Tammuz 4o days, after which, he would be resurrected. This was during the springtime, when crops were planted. Hence, the eastern sunrise service honoring the resurrection, following the 40 days of "weeping for Tammuz", better known as LENT. LamorakDesGalis, what do easter eggs and rabbits have to do with Jesus? Do they have anything to do with the fertility god ishtar? Sure do. Is this ok with our God?

This is a pretty big rabbit trail off of crucifixion day...

"Tammuz killed by a wild boar?" What are your sources for this? Unreliable sources are the Achilles hill for these sort of claims...

DEUT. 12 [29] When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; [30] Take heed to thyself that thou BE NOT SNARED BY FOLLOWING THEM, after that they be destroyed from before thee; AND THAT THOU ENQUIRE NOT AFTER THEIR GODS, SAYING, HOW DID THESE NATIONS SERVE THEIR GODS? EVEN SO WILL I DO LIKEWISE. [31] Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [32] WHAT THING SOEVER I COMMAND YOU, OBSERVE TO DO IT: THOU SHALT NOT ADD THERETO, NOR DIMINISH FROM IT.

Not according to the Word.

Christian believers are monotheistic and worship only one God. Christians just don't even worship Molech, much less sacrifice children to Molech. So I don't see how this passage in Deuteronomy is applied to Christians.


LDG

 

[WailingWall]

Hi LDG
Its symbolic. How did the name easter come about?

 

[visionary]

Yeshua's death and burial between 3 PM (9th hour) and 6 PM (Sunset) on the day of his crucifixion. (Matt. 27:46-50, John 19:28-42)

Yeshua's ressurrection occurrs before daybreak on the following Sunday, the 1st day of the week. (John 20:1, Mark 16:1-8)

God's reckoning of the length of a 24 hour day is from sunset to sunset, ....not dawn to dawn. (Gen.1:5)

Preparation Day (John 19:14)
Tuesday @ Sunset (6 pm)
Disciples eat Passover (Matthew 26:20)
Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36)

Midnight
Elders Court (Matthew 26:57)
Peter's Denial (Matthew 26:74)

Wednesday Morning / Dawn
Before Pilate / Leaders had not yet eaten Passover (John 18:28)

Noon
Jesus Crucified (John 19:14)

Wednesday / 3pm to 6pm
Jesus' Death & Burial (Matthew 27:46-50, John 19:28)

Passover / A High Day Sabbath (John 19:31)
Wednesday Sunset @ 6pm
Midnight
Thursday Morning / Dawn
Tomb Sealed (Matthew 27:62-66)

Noon
Thursday Sunset
End of 1 (12hr) NIGHT & 1 (12hr) DAY - 24 hours in the Tomb


Spices were Bought & Prepared
Thursday Sunset / 6pm
Midnight
Friday Morning / Dawn
Noon
Spices Bought & Prepared (Mark 16:1, Luke 23:56)

Friday Sunset / 6pm
End of 2nd (12hr) NIGHT & 2nd (12hr) DAY - 48 hours in the Tomb


Saturday Sabbath Day (Matthew 28:1)
Friday Sunset / 6 pm
Midnight
Saturday Morning / Dawn
Noon
Women Rested on the Sabbath (Luke 23:56)

Saturday Sunset / 3 pm - 6 pm
End of 3rd (12hr) NIGHT & 3rd (12hr) DAY - 72 hours in the Tomb


Sunday / 1st Day of the Week/First Fruits or WAve Sheaf (John 20:1)
Saturday Sunset / 6 pm
Yeshua is Risen ( Matthew 12:40, Mark 16:1-8)

Midnight

Sunday Morning / Dawn
Tomb found empty at Daybreak / still Dark (John 20:1, Mark 16:2)

Watch still at the Tomb (Matthew 28:11)

3rd day of Watch and Tomb Sealing

Yeshua Appears on Emmaus Road (Luke 24:13-31)

Sunday Sunset / 6 pm
Yeshua Appears in the Room (John 20:19)

 

[ThomasDa]

Visionary; that is exactly what I've ben saying throughout this whole thing. Good work.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

If Jesus was buried between 3-6pm on Wednesday, then 72 hours later is necessarily between 3-6pm on Saturday.

Yet the time scheme says Jesus arose sometime after 6pm, on Sunday, a fourth day.

If Jesus arose sometime after 6pm, then that means the scheme is saying that Jesus' burial was longer than a literal 72 hour period.


LDG

 

[visionary]

If Jesus was buried between 3-6pm on Wednesday, then 72 hours later is necessarily between 3-6pm on Saturday.

Yet the time scheme says Jesus arose sometime after 6pm, on Sunday, a fourth day.

If Jesus arose sometime after 6pm, then that means the scheme is saying that Jesus' burial was longer than a literal 72 hour period.


LDG

1st Day of the Week/First Fruits or Wave Sheaf/ Saturday-Sunday (John 20:1)
Saturday Sunset / 6 pm

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

1st Day of the Week/First Fruits or Wave Sheaf/ Saturday-Sunday (John 20:1)
Saturday Sunset / 6 pm

Are you trying to say Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath day?

However Scripture clearly says Jesus rose on the 1st day of the week:

Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

Scripture also says Jesus arose on the third day, not the fourth.

But Sunday is obviously the fourth day in a Wednesday crucifixion scheme. And as I said before, any event occurring on Sunday is longer than a literal 72 hour period.


LDG

 

[Steve Petersen]

Are you trying to say Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath day?

However Scripture clearly says Jesus rose on the 1st day of the week:

Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

Scripture also says Jesus arose on the third day, not the fourth.

But Sunday is obviously the fourth day in a Wednesday crucifixion scheme. And as I said before, any event occurring on Sunday is longer than a literal 72 hour period.


LDG

In Jesus' culture, the first day of the week begins when the sun sets on Saturday.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

In Jesus' culture, the first day of the week begins when the sun sets on Saturday.

Yes, I'm aware of the time reckonings of the 1st century. A sunset to sunset reckoning doesn't solve the problem, in fact it highlights it:

3 hours = Wed 3-6pm = 4th day of the week

24 hours = Wed 6pm - Thu 6pm = 5th day of the week

24 hours = Thu 6pm - Fri 6pm = 6th day of the week (Preparation Day)

24 hours = Fri 6pm - Sat 6pm = the Sabbath


LDG

 

[visionary]

Are you trying to say Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath day?

However Scripture clearly says Jesus rose on the 1st day of the week:

Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. Scripture also says Jesus arose on the third day, not the fourth.

But Sunday is obviously the fourth day in a Wednesday crucifixion scheme. And as I said before, any event occurring on Sunday is longer than a literal 72 hour period.


LDG

Early on the first day of the week is sunset saturday our time. I know that we think dawn to dawn, but biblically is it sunset to sunset for a day... so early on the first day is sunset... in this case .. sunset saturday night.

 

[visionary]

Yes, I'm aware of the time reckonings of the 1st century. A sunset to sunset reckoning doesn't solve the problem, in fact it highlights it:

3 hours = Wed 3-6pm = 4th day of the week

24 hours = Wed 6pm - Thu 6pm = 5th day of the week

24 hours = Thu 6pm - Fri 6pm = 6th day of the week (Preparation Day)

24 hours = Fri 6pm - Sat 6pm = the Sabbath


LDG

do not forget that saturday sabbath portion is only til sunset... so it is not a full 24 hours.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Early on the first day of the week is sunset saturday our time. I know that we think dawn to dawn, but biblically is it sunset to sunset for a day... so early on the first day is sunset... in this case .. sunset saturday night.

My posts are not showing a lack of understanding about a sunset to sunset reckoning. In fact my questions - see previous posts - are asking for Wednesday crucifixion advocates to specifically explain their position in light of a sunset to sunset reckoning.

"The first day of the week" is not the weekly Sabbath; and the weekly Sabbath, in a Wed crucifixion, is the third day. The first day of the week is an entirely different day, and is not only beyond the 72 hours but counts as the fourth day.

And Biblically speaking, sunset to sunset wasn't the only time reckoning used in the 1st century. John in his gospel used a sunrise to sunrise reckoning as can be seen in these verses:

John 20:1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

John 20:19 shows that the resurrection events occurred in the morning of that first day of the week. Likewise the other Gospel passages show that the events are in the morning of the first day of the week:

Matthew 28:1 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

Mark 16:2-3 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3 and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?"

Luke 24:1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

LDG

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

do not forget that saturday sabbath portion is only til sunset... so it is not a full 24 hours.

My post shows that Friday 6pm until Saturday 6pm was the Sabbath, according to sunset to sunset reckoning. The Sabbath itself was a 24 hour day. The Preparation Day prior to the Sabbath was itself 24 hours. And also the 5th day of the week prior to that was also 24 hours. That is a total of 72 hours and three days right there.

Then there is the 3pm-6pm of Jesus' crucifixion day, and the fact that Jesus arose on the 1st day of the week. That 3+ hours adds more to the 72 hour period.

So can you explain to me - using a Wed crucifixion scheme - how Scripture says Jesus rose on the third day when the 1st day of the week is clearly a fourth day?


LDG