Formal Debate Gallery: Was Jesus Crucified on a Friday?

[ScottBot]

This thread has been started as an area to provide your commentary on the Formal Debate: Was Jesus Crucified on a Friday.

Here is the link:http://christianforums.com/t7024515-formal-debate-was-jesus-crucified-on-a-friday.html

 

[ThomasDa]

Was Jesus crucified on Friday?

In a word NO!

 

[ThomasDa]

If Christ’s prophecy about how long He was in the grave was wrong …as taught (Fri. evening till Sun morning that would make Christ a liar and we wouldn’t be able to trust Him or the Bible.)
Everything we believe hangs on the precise fulfillment of this prophecy!

The 36 hrs. that, that Jesus spent in the grave automatically disqualifies him from being the Jesus of the Bible.

Jesus’ prophecy about how long He would be in the grave is told to us by three of the gospel writers.
1.) Lk 11:29 And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, “This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and NO sign will be given to it EXCEPTthe sign of Jonah the prophet.

And again in Mat.
2.) Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign and NO sign shall be given to it EXCEPT the sign of the prophet[b] Jonah.” And He left them and departed.

Now in Mat.12:38 Jesus explained what this sign was.
3.) Mat 12:38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying,
“Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.” 39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and NO sign will be given to it EXCEPT the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was THREE days and THREE nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be THREE days and THREE nights in the heart of the earth.

Now let’s go see what 3 days and 3 nights meant in Jonah’s case.
Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish (three days and three nights.)

The word translated “three” (Strong’s # 7969) means, well...3.
The word translated “days” (Strong’s # 3117) means the hot part of the day, i.e. from sunrise to sunset.
The word translated “nights” (Strong’s # 3915) means away from the light, i.e. night. Sounds like 72 hrs.
Now we could point to other things to show that 3 days and 3 nights means
3 days and 3 nights. Such as the creation account where God plainly calls
the light day and the dark night and He calls a combination of the two the 1st day the 2nd day and so on six times.
Or we could read where Jesus said “are there not 12 hrs. in a day?” and by
implication 12 hrs. in a night.
In studying this subject we must have basic understanding of God’s annual Sabbaths.
The 1st “Day of Unleavened Bread” is the day after the Passover this explains the 2 Sabbaths mentioned. To learn the basics read Lev. 23.
Passover is always a “preparation day” because the Passover is always the day before the first annual Sabbath of the year. That Sabbath is “The First Day of Unleavened Bread” (Lev.23:4-8) If you every want to understand this you will have to learn about God’s annual “Holy Days” these days are annual Sabbaths. These Sabbaths are also called “High Days” like in Jo.19:31. These things are vital to understand, if you want understand the length of time Christ was in the grave.
Now we know what Jesus said... and we know what He meant...and if we look in 1Cor 15 we read that the Bible says these things happened just like Jesus said.
1Cor 15: 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, (most professing Christians believe that)4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day… according to the Scripture,(but they won’t believe that) Boggles the mind doesn’t it ?
Now that we know what the Scriptures say would happen and that the Scriptures say it did happen just that way…We should be able to follow the story thread if we read the various Scriptures on the subject…

So let’s read the story straight through.

I’m sure you can find these scriptures with just a little reading of the accounts in Mat. Mk. Lk. and Jo.

31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, (the Passover) that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day,) the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.

33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.

38 After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Jesus.

39 And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, of about a hundred pounds.

53 Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb that was hewn out of the rock, where no one had ever lain before.

54 That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near. (So that would be late in the afternoon on the Passover.)

55 And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid.

1 Now when the Sabbath was past, (the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread) Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.

56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath (that is the weekly Sabbath) according to the commandment. (The 4th commandment.)

1 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.

3 And they said among themselves, “Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?” 4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away—for it was very large.

2And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, (sometime before they got there)for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. (NAS)

3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments.

5 Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead?

6 He is not here, but is risen! (Past Tense) Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee:

7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”

7 Go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him.”

8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.

So let’s review…Jesus was crucified and died according to the Scriptures.

2nd He was buried on Passover evening (Wednesday) just before the First Day of Unleavened Bread began. (Thursday)

3rd When that annual Sabbath ended 1 night and 1 day had past.

4th During the daylight portion of the following day the women bought spices and prepared them. That evening 1 more night and 1 more day had past.

5th Then they rested on the weekly Sabbath (Saturday) and by the time the weekly Sabbath was over 1 more night and 1 more day had past. That is 3 days and 3 nights.

Then about 12 hrs. later the women went to the tomb only to have an angel tell them that Jesus had risen as He had said He would. 72 Hours after His burial.
Jesus was right again; imagine that!!

 

[Hismessenger]

Eastern culture does not equate days the way that we are use to. Any part of the day is considered to be sufficient to call it a day. Thus, Jesus was buried before sundown on friday. This was considered the first day. From sundown friday to sundown saturday was considered the second day and His resurrection on sunday morning is considered the third day. I too had difficulty with the days but this explains it quite simply and wonderfully.

hismessenger

 

[ScottBot]

Eastern culture does not equate days the way that we are use to. Any part of the day is considered to be sufficient to call it a day. Thus, Jesus was buried before sundown on friday. This was considered the first day. From sundown friday to sundown saturday was considered the second day and His resurrection on sunday morning is considered the third day. I too had difficulty with the days but this explains it quite simply and wonderfully.

hismessenger

Cultural context is just as important as the actual words used. Thanks for this brief but meaningful insight.

 

[ThomasDa]

Hismessenger; what about the two Sabbaths,that week, metioned in the Bible? That is two full days at least. No mater what is said about culture, that can't account for the two Sabbaths.
Did you really read post #3? Did you try to "prove all things"? Or is this just your unstudied knee jerk reaction?

 

[Hismessenger]

ThomasDa,

If you look truly at scripture, everyday was a sabbath day of some sort according to the rotation of days. Your query about two sabbaths only verifies what I have said but don't take my word for it, do a search on the word sabbath and see for yourself.

hismessenger

 

[ThomasDa]

LDG came out of the chute fast and furious at a high rate of speed.
He disregarded and held in much distain the things that WW pointed out. But alas LGD had gone so fast that he left all reason behind. By the time he looked back he had gone so far that he could not even see the truth, because while he was traveling very fast, he didn’t realize he was going the wrong direction.

Now on the other hand WW started out slow and steady. His reasoning was sound, agreeing with scripture at every turn. Since he was following
scripture where it led and not reading into it human reasoning he was successful. WW’s chronological order of events follows scripture and makes it obvious that he is the better student, unencumbered by the traditions of men. He arrived at the truth because he went in the right direction.

So the winner and still champion is!
"WAILLING WALL"!!

 

[ScottBot]

Actually, Wailing Wall still has a final post to make. I will turn this Gallery into a poll so people can vote on who they believe won the debate.

 

[ThomasDa]

That was the point Scott, this debate was won by WW when he chose the right side of the debate. Having the truth on his side made the outcome academic.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

I found it to be a really interesting debate and well-played by both contributors!
I voted for LDG, though.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Hi ThomasDa! I think the rules suggested the participants shouldn't post in the "peanut gallery" thread until the debate was over.

If Christ’s prophecy about how long He was in the grave was wrong …as taught (Fri. evening till Sun morning that would make Christ a liar and we wouldn’t be able to trust Him or the Bible.)
Everything we believe hangs on the precise fulfillment of this prophecy!

The 36 hrs. that, that Jesus spent in the grave automatically disqualifies him from being the Jesus of the Bible.

Obviously I disagree. Its not a critical debate for Christianity, because Christians hold to both sides of the debate. The critical key is whether one believes Jesus rose from the dead or not.

For the literal 72 hour view, it really depends on a single verse, Matt 12:38. Neither Luke 11:29 or Matthew 16:4 mentions "three days and three nights." So a literal 72 hour view depends entirely on only Matt 12:38.

But if Jesus was literally dead or buried for 72 hours, then He must have risen after 72 hours, which means on the fourth day. But there aren't any Scriptures that say Jesus rose on the fourth day.

Instead multiple Scriptures say Jesus was raised on the third day. In 1 Corinthians 15:4 Paul said Jesus was raised on the third day. And we have this same idea of "Jesus raised on the third (not fourth) day" in Matthew 16:21, Matthew 17:23, Matthew 20:19, and Matthew 27:64 - also in Luke 9:22, Luke 18:33, Luke 24:7, Luke 24:21, Luke 24:46, John 2:1 and Acts 10:40.

As I pointed out in the debate, Jesus also expressed an inclusive three day view in Luke 13:32. I've never had any advocate for a literal 72 hour period explain to me how Jesus could be dead for 3 full days and nights and then be raised up on the third day, as Scripture says.

In studying this subject we must have basic understanding of God’s annual Sabbaths.
The 1st “Day of Unleavened Bread” is the day after the Passover this explains the 2 Sabbaths mentioned. To learn the basics read Lev. 23.
Passover is always a “preparation day” because the Passover is always the day before the first annual Sabbath of the year. That Sabbath is “The First Day of Unleavened Bread” (Lev.23:4-8) If you every want to understand this you will have to learn about God’s annual “Holy Days” these days are annual Sabbaths. These Sabbaths are also called “High Days” like in Jo.19:31. These things are vital to understand, if you want understand the length of time Christ was in the grave.

I have already pointed some things concerning Sabbath days in the debate. In John 19:31, it just makes no sense for John to mean "that (First day of unleavened bread) Sabbath was high." Besides, I honestly don't think there are any sources that call these "Holy Days" the "High Days."

John used the ordinary word for Sabbath in 19:31. So it makes sense for him to mean "that (weekly) Sabbath was also high" - meaning the Passover also fell on a Sabbath that year.

Now we know what Jesus said... and we know what He meant...and if we look in 1Cor 15 we read that the Bible says these things happened just like Jesus said.
1Cor 15: 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, (most professing Christians believe that)4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day… according to the Scripture,(but they won’t believe that) Boggles the mind doesn’t it ?

Explain this to me...how can Jesus be buried for a literal 72 hours - three full days and nights - and then be raised on the third day? Anything after 72 hours falls on the fourth day.

Also, if Jesus was buried shortly before sunset on Wed, then a literal 72 hours later would mean shortly before sunset on Saturday, the weekly Sabbath. But Jesus rose on a Sunday, not a Saturday.


LDG

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

LDG came out of the chute fast and furious at a high rate of speed.
He disregarded and held in much distain the things that WW pointed out. But alas LGD had gone so fast that he left all reason behind. By the time he looked back he had gone so far that he could not even see the truth, because while he was traveling very fast, he didn’t realize he was going the wrong direction.

I appreciate the compliments in there.

The debate was pretty limited by the 1,000 word count. On the positive side a smaller limit makes for a faster read, but on the negative side not everything gets adequately addressed by the participants. And remember, if there were things you saw that I didn't address, there were also many things that WailingWall also didn't address.

But there is no word limit in this thread, and I'm certainly willing to point out/explain issues that were raised in the debate.


LDG

 

[Steve Petersen]

I think a good case can be made that Preparation Day is the 14th of Nissan (sundown to sundown) when leaven must be out of the house, the lamb sacrificed and prepared. When the sun set, ushering in the 15th of Nissan, the Passover meal was eaten.

What day did Jesus die?. The Gospel of John seems to put Jesus' death on the 14th of Nisan, at the same time the Passover was slaughtered. The other gospels seem to put Jesus' death after the Passover meal sometime (hence the 15th of Nissan.)

Luke indicates that Jesus was put in the tomb on Preparation day, and that the sabbath was drawing near. The women rested the sabbath day and returned to annoint on the first of the week (which begins Saturday night). A point worth noting it that the first day of Unleavened Bread (15 Nissan) is also a sabbath, and as such also has a requirement to rest.

So from the scripture it is possible to have two sabbaths back-to-back. A holiday sabbath (such as the first and last days of Passover and Tabernacles) and a weekly sabbath. In fact, this will happen this week. The normal weekly sabbath will be followed (Saturday night) by the first day of Unleavened Bread, also a sabbath.

Lev 23:6-8 (KJV) And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

 

[ThomasDa]

LDG we have been through all of this. There is no scripture that says Jesus was resurrected on sunday.

 

[ThomasDa]

The day before ANY Sabbath, whether weekly or annual is a preparation day.
The Passover is always a preparation day because the next day is always
"The First Day of Unleavened Bread" (Which is the 1st Annual Sabbath of the year)
Lev. 23:5-8.
Remember the women went out and bought spices and prepared them
after one Sabbath ended (Mk.16:1) remember that Sabbath was a “High Day” (Jo.19:31) and then
they rested on the next Sabbath? (Lk.23:56) this was the weekly Sabbath.
April 25th 31AD, the day of the crucifixion was on Wednesday, which was Passover that
year "The First Day of Unleavened Bread" was Thursday: Friday was between "The First Day of
Unleavened Bread" and the weekly Sabbath. Don't forget also that if Jesus was only
36 hrs. In the grave then His prophecy was wrong. He staked His messiahship on the
fact that He would be in the grave 3 days AND 3 nights just as Jonah was in the belly of the
great fish. He said that would be the ONLY sign He would give an evil and adulterous world (Mat. 12:38.)
Don't be part of that evil and adulterous world that will not believe Him.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

LDG we have been through all of this. There is no scripture that says Jesus was resurrected on sunday.

I'm not sure what you mean by "been through all this." As for Scripture:

Mark 16:9 Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.


LDG

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

The day before ANY Sabbath, whether weekly or annual is a preparation day.

In the debate, I showed sources that used "preparation day" as referring to the day before the Sabbath. Modern Greek even uses the term for Friday. But I've never seen any sources that show "preparation day" was used for the day before what you call "annual Sabbaths."

The Passover is always a preparation day because the next day is always
"The First Day of Unleavened Bread" (Which is the 1st Annual Sabbath of the year)
Lev. 23:5-8.

I've never seen Passover referred to as a "preparation day."

Remember the women went out and bought spices and prepared them
after one Sabbath ended (Mk.16:1) remember that Sabbath was a “High Day” (Jo.19:31) and then
they rested on the next Sabbath? (Lk.23:56) this was the weekly Sabbath.

I think I've shown that the women buying spices is a moot point in the debate. Scriptures show that the disciples bought spices before Jesus died. I've already pointed out issues of John 19:31 - its a special weekly Sabbath. And again, as I've said before, the word for Sabbath in Mark 16:1 is the normal word for weekly Sabbath. Its the same word in Luke 23:56.

April 25th 31AD, the day of the crucifixion was on Wednesday, which was Passover that
year "The First Day of Unleavened Bread" was Thursday: Friday was between "The First Day of
Unleavened Bread" and the weekly Sabbath.

This doesn't address the fact that Jesus arose on the third day.

Again, I've never seen anyone advocating a literal 72 hour burial explain to me how Jesus was resurrected on the third day. That is because anything after a 72 hour period is the fourth day. Anything within a 72 hour period is on the third day.

Don't forget also that if Jesus was only
36 hrs. In the grave then His prophecy was wrong. He staked His messiahship on the
fact that He would be in the grave 3 days AND 3 nights just as Jonah was in the belly of the
great fish. He said that would be the ONLY sign He would give an evil and adulterous world (Mat. 12:38.)
Don't be part of that evil and adulterous world that will not believe Him.

Again as I said earlier, the Wed crucifixion view stakes its entire claim on Matthew 12:38. I've already cited the numerous "third day" verses above...but they are passed over without any comment....


LDG

 

[ThomasDa]

Actually Mat. 27:63 and Mk. 8:31 both say after three days. Between these and the places that say on the third day we find the 72 hrs.

 

[Steve Petersen]

A literal translation of Matthew 28:1 in the Greek comes out like this:

'After the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of sabbaths...'

Notice that Mary comes to the tomb after the 'sabbaths', which is plural. This indicates to me that we had a holiday sabbath and a weekly sabbath back-to-back.

'First of sabbaths' is quickly recognizable as the common Jewish way of referring to the first day of the week. Yom Rishon Shabbat translates as 'First day of the Sabbath.' Monday is 'the second day of the sabbath', etc.