Are we sinners?

[Nekoneko]

I'm not really so much a christian, although more recently I have come to believe in God. I've never gone to church, I've never read the whole of the Bible (although I tried when I was younger and didn't finish), or anything like that. Sometimes I talk. I don't really like going to sleep that much, and sometimes I just talk. I don't pray or anything in the normal sense... I just talk. If He is all-knowing and all-seeing, he can understand me no matter what format I use.

But this is just an introduction to shed light as to why I even bothered to come here. This is my question, my 'struggle' that I want some sort of commentary on.

I hesistate to call her a 'girlfriend', for she is much more than that. I am 17, a senior in high school, and she is 16, a junior. After a very long time of getting to know each other, becoming friends, and getting close, we have come to love each other very much.

High school love - as if such a thing could exist. Certainly one's teenage years are not well known for spawning meaningful relationships. Most couples you see in schools are together for weeks, maybe a month or two if they are committed. And even then there is no deep feeling between them.

As for me and her... we are much different. I want to marry her, and she wants to marry me. We honestly love each other, and could love no others. I can say that for both of us - although not very well, because I could never express how honestly I mean this. This is my conundrum, which me and her alike can't be sure on, as she is the traditional church-going christian....

...we're not virgins.

It's hard because I understand the whole idea that the whole 'temptation' thing is there just to be some sort of test to see if you can win - if you're worthy enough or something to resist and be strong until you are married. Cheating is cheating is cheating!

But that cant be. I can't believe that cheating is cheating is cheating here, because we love each other. We really do. The moral wrongness in making love before marriage is that there is no love to back it up. Making love without love - that is why it is wrong. But it's not like that here. How can it be so wrong if it's so honest and so meaningful to both of us? How can it be a true sin if we differ only from married couples by title alone?

I haven't gone to sunday school, and I've never been to a church during any sort of service. But what I do know is that God is great, and supposedly understands everything. He should be able to understand how I feel with her - able to understand the honesty in it - able to understand the way I think, and empathize... know and understand why... right?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I'm not really so much a christian, although more recently I have come to believe in God. I've never gone to church, I've never read the whole of the Bible (although I tried when I was younger and didn't finish), or anything like that. Sometimes I talk. I don't really like going to sleep that much, and sometimes I just talk. I don't pray or anything in the normal sense... I just talk. If He is all-knowing and all-seeing, he can understand me no matter what format I use.

But this is just an introduction to shed light as to why I even bothered to come here. This is my question, my 'struggle' that I want some sort of commentary on.

I hesistate to call her a 'girlfriend', for she is much more than that. I am 17, a senior in high school, and she is 16, a junior. After a very long time of getting to know each other, becoming friends, and getting close, we have come to love each other very much.

High school love - as if such a thing could exist. Certainly one's teenage years are not well known for spawning meaningful relationships. Most couples you see in schools are together for weeks, maybe a month or two if they are committed. And even then there is no deep feeling between them.

As for me and her... we are much different. I want to marry her, and she wants to marry me. We honestly love each other, and could love no others. I can say that for both of us - although not very well, because I could never express how honestly I mean this. This is my conundrum, which me and her alike can't be sure on, as she is the traditional church-going christian....

...we're not virgins.

It's hard because I understand the whole idea that the whole 'temptation' thing is there just to be some sort of test to see if you can win - if you're worthy enough or something to resist and be strong until you are married. Cheating is cheating is cheating!

But that cant be. I can't believe that cheating is cheating is cheating here, because we love each other. We really do. The moral wrongness in making love before marriage is that there is no love to back it up. Making love without love - that is why it is wrong. But it's not like that here. How can it be so wrong if it's so honest and so meaningful to both of us? How can it be a true sin if we differ only from married couples by title alone?

I haven't gone to sunday school, and I've never been to a church during any sort of service. But what I do know is that God is great, and supposedly understands everything. He should be able to understand how I feel with her - able to understand the honesty in it - able to understand the way I think, and empathize... know and understand why... right?

Hi Nekoneko,

God certaintly does understand your feelings for this girl. . .after all He is the Creator of our emotions.

You said that neither of you are virgins. . .did you mean with previous people or with each other? In other words I'm asking are you already sexually active with each other?

Before I even attempt to answer your question "why", would you mind answering this next question? Other than the info you've already given, what is it that has caused you to ask the question?

 

[Nekoneko]

I mean with each other... never with anyone else.

I asked this question because occasionally it will worry her. She will get sort of sad thinking about it, and we talk. I reassure her with the things I said above, and she does feel better, but I know she wants some other kind of.. I don't know, input. Something that ties into the way she's been raised all her life - she's always gone to church, I haven't.

So it's for her. As for myself... we'll, we've both changed each other in little ways, and she has brought me to think about more... churchy things. She often says when we're together "It feels so right"... and it does. But somehow, I also feel like I should ask...

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I mean with each other... never with anyone else.

I asked this question because occasionally it will worry her. She will get sort of sad thinking about it, and we talk. I reassure her with the things I said above, and she does feel better, but I know she wants some other kind of.. I don't know, input. Something that ties into the way she's been raised all her life - she's always gone to church, I haven't.

So it's for her. As for myself... we'll, we've both changed each other in little ways, and she has brought me to think about more... churchy things. She often says when we're together "It feels so right"... and it does. But somehow, I also feel like I should ask...

Thanks for being honest Nekoneko. I thought that might be the issue.

I'm not really sure where to begin. I guess the fact that you are willing to ask does show that you care and you don't want to hurt her. However, knowing that she is uncomfortable with it, do you love her enough to stop until when you marry? Does your love for her have to include your physical needs being met over her emotional issues with it?

She has been taught what the Bible says on the issue and she will never be able to let that go. She will always, ALWAYS, somewhere in the back of her mind feel that she is disobeying God.

You both are so young. When do you turn 18? At the time you turn 18, you are considered an adult. In many states it is considered illigal and statutory rape for an adult to have sex with a minor. Whether consensual or not. You possibly could go to jail.

Sex was created by God and is intended for pleasure. This situation may be pleasurable and feel right, right now, yet has all the earmarks of great trouble, resentment, and guilt down the line.

I would strongly incourage you, first of all, to consider giving your heart to the Lord so that first you may have the type of relationship with God that He desires. From there you can grow into a Godly relationship with this girl who may one day be your wife. Until then, sexual contact of any kind is not permissable. That is the way God intended it. Nothing ever ends well that is done ouside the way He intended it.

Please know I'm not condemning you I applaud your caring enough to ask.

 

[Iktomi]

Hey there!
I decided to post a bit here because I was in a similar predicament. I lost my virginity with a girl I loved. I had waited and waited and waited, and when it happened, I was positive it was right for the same reasons you are stating. (Keep in mind that I was 23 years old at this time.)
Now, after dating her for a couple of years and continuing in sexual activity, God began to really speak to me and I felt sad and confused. Probably a lot like your girlfriend occasionally feels. Finally, I told my girlfriend how I was feeling hoping that she loved me enough to understand. She did, and our sexual relations stopped, never to be continued. (for another year)
We argued and fought a lot, and to make a long story short, we didn't end up together in the end.
The reason it was important for me to stop was because that although I truly loved her, that's not what sex is for. IMO, it is the beautiful act created by God used to seal your union on the night that you ask God to bless your marriage and you make your vows to each other and ultimately to Him. By waiting, you are also showing honor and respect for His Holy union. She may need, more than anything right now, for you to take a step of faith for God and for her. I can't think of anything that would be more meaningful to both. Show her that her feelings are worth everything to you.
This is just my input, and I hope you give serious thought to this and especially to what Quaffer said.
My prayers are with you guys.

 

[countrymousenc]

Quaffer and iktomi said some good things, Nekoneko. As to your question "Are we sinners?' the answer is "yes, and all the rest of us are sinners, too." I pray that you and your girlfriend will submit to God's will, and, having already become one flesh, will be faithful to each other and marry when the time is right.

 

[Crofter]

Nekoneko... this reminds me so much of the struggles of my youth... it was really difficult struggling with these issues... really difficult... I loved God... but I loved my boyfriend too... really my confusion and guilt was a big downer on my faith... it was my faith that came second to my love for my boyfriend. In the end I did what I wanted to do... and decided to handle any reprucussions afterwards... I won't lie to you.. 19 years on we are still right for eachother! .. and we both have stronger and closer faith in God...But.. well... what did I learn in this time of my life...?

Well... I did learn that the rules and guidelines in the Bible are there for reasons... not silly rules made to be awkward.... but are there to protect us and those we love from harm..

 

[netal]

IMO, it is the beautiful act created by God used to seal your union on the night that you ask God to bless your marriage and you make your vows to each other and ultimately to Him. By waiting, you are also showing honor and respect for His Holy union. She may need, more than anything right now, for you to take a step of faith for God and for her. I can't think of anything that would be more meaningful to both. Show her that her feelings are worth everything to you.

I agree with this. It was an excellent response.

It is difficult to wait- yes... but it is worth it by far- at least, that's what everyone says! I'm still waiting

I do have a question though. If say a man meets the woman he is to marry (and this, as far as they can tell, is completely in God's will)... They then make a vow between them and God. These vows are the same you make when you exchange rings in front of a pastor/priest and a group of family/friends. WHY exactly would it be 'wrong' to have sex after making this personal vow? Why does the signing of a document and exchanging of a ring make so much difference? Isn't the state of marriage a very personal, internal thing- the depth of which can only be known by the couple and God? Why must these vows take place in front of others for it to be valid? ... I am curioius
Sorry, just some rambling thoughts... bit off topic

 

[The Midge]

If such a vow is really heartfelt and honest there should be no harm in making it in front of witnesses. If this is kind of vow is made to God then he will still expect you to honour it. Sometimes it is helpfull to make a vow public because then you get the support of those who see it. We cannot conviniently forget the vow as we sometimes try to do with a provate vow with God. We reason that noone else will notice if we do not keep it. And we need help if we are to live upto our marriage vows!

Once there was no formal register of mariages. You could get married by crossing the threshold with your partner or by tying the know with the hem of your cloak. The only troube is that since there was no record it was all too easy for unfaithful partners to walk out of the marriage and leaving their partner holding the kids. The registery laws are there to protect the vulnerable typically the wife.

As for being sinners- yes we all are. The goodnews of the Gospel of Christ is that we have been made right with God; therefore we are made anew and perfect again. You get a fresh start. So even if we have messed up God will is to restore us.

 

[netal]

If such a vow is really heartfelt and honest there should be no harm in making it in front of witnesses. If this is kind of vow is made to God then he will still expect you to honour it. Sometimes it is helpfull to make a vow public because then you get the support of those who see it. We cannot conviniently forget the vow as we sometimes try to do with a provate vow with God. We reason that noone else will notice if we do not keep it. And we need help if we are to live upto our marriage vows!

Once there was no formal register of mariages. You could get married by crossing the threshold with your partner or by tying the know with the hem of your cloak. The only troube is that since there was no record it was all too easy for unfaithful partners to walk out of the marriage and leaving their partner holding the kids. The registery laws are there to protect the vulnerable typically the wife.

That is kind of what I was thinking. It doesn't seem like the vow would be any different in God's eyes... but our behaviour wouldn't be held accountable by others- and that is never a good thing!
Thank you for that reply

 

[Kalewen]

You are separated from those who are married by more than just a title. You hear it said that marriage is a commitment--a very strong commitment. I say no even to that. It is a covenant, and one that is not taken lightly. I am not condeming you, but I just want you to know that you are separated by more than just a title, and sex out of wedlock is wrong. And yes, all of us are sinners. Every one of us have sinned, and we are all under the same judgement. However, Jesus, the son of God took all that on the cross--he took your sins and mine and died to pay the price, which is death. He rose again, so that we would have eternal life. Jesus loves you, and He wants you to come to Him. I will be praying for you.

 

[Iktomi]

I agree with Kalewen.
I would also like to add in response to the hypothetical question about having made a vow to eachother and to God but having not gotten married yet...
One, I believe that until the covenant is made in front of everyone else AND God, His perfect will may not be know yet.
Also, consider that we do many things because of how we appear to the world. Paul said that it is okay to eat meat that others considered "tainted" but if there was someone at the table who didn't understand that, we don't eat the meat in order to not lead others astray.
Now, I personally do not believe that it is okay without being married. This is just an argument against doing it for those who think it is.

 

[marc]

Marc's wife speaking: I have tried both ways, sex before marriage and sex after. I was living with a guy for awhile, and I really thought I loved him. After all we were going to get married anyway, what's the big deal, right? Even coming to the Lord I believed this. Except I was never really happy with it. I had convinced myself it "felt right" emotions are tricky things, especially in women. We are often ruled by them. But I had a 'soul searching' one day and realized that my spirit was getting heavier and heavier. It affected the relationship. He thought every time I was gone, I was with another guy. After all, I slept with him, why not with others. It didn't work. I left him. I remained single for a year, not seeing anyone. Then after two years, I met my husband, a recently new christian as I and from a very similar background, he lived with a woman. We decided to honor God with our relationship. We didn't kiss, hold hands, hug nothing. We got to know each other with other people around. It was excrusiatingly hard not to be intimate with him. A lot of times we had to use the phone because the temptation was too great. But we did it. And our marriage is stronger for it! Our first kiss was on our wedding day!

 

[Ryft]

Okay, I'll be the guy that's blunt and to the point:

What is more important to you?

• What you want
• What God wants

 

[Claude J Robichaud]

After reading the responses that these other "God Loving" members have provided I have nothing more to add except to say this. The love that you have in your heart for this woman is just a fraction of the love that God has in his heart for the both of you. Embrace this greater love as your future wife already has, and everything will work itself out in time.

GOD BLESS
Copernicus