Abortion Dr. Morgentaler among those named to Order of Canada

[cantata]

a) Why is killing a 1 year old worse than killing a 30 year old?

It isn't. Actually, I think killing the 30 year old is worse.

b) If George Washington had been aborted where would the US be today?

If Hitler had been aborted..?

The answer is abortion kills young people and you don't know who you are killing. In Terminator 2 the kid tells the Terminator, 'You can't just go around killing people.' This applies to abortion.

Oh, please. A foetus that someone decides to abort could have discovered the cure for cancer or invented a new kind of landmine. It's stupid to speculate based on what the foetus might do.

a) Its obviously debatable if the foetus is aware and "alive" at this time. However for me thats not the issue its the possibility of life and who this foetus may turn out to be that makes abortion even at an early stage immoral in my eyes. This foetus is still alive and even while it obviously isnt developed as a baby it will become a baby unless something tragic happens or the foetus is aborted. Abortion is snuffing out the future for this foetus that would otherwise become a a new person, which is why I consider it bad when used as a method of birth control.

But why is that bad, as far as the foetus is concerned? Why is it bad to have a shorter life rather than a longer one, if you are not given the opportunity to anticipate your death?

b) Human life is valuable to me, as I consider it a gift from God. It is an amazing wonderful world we live in and every person has a chance to experience this and influence the world around them, even a small amount. Again abortion stops a life dead in its tracks before it has a chance to grow up and influence the world and other humans around that person.

Are there any secular reasons to believe that human life is intrinsically valuable?

That said:- As I dont think my views should be forced on others I am pro-choice. Sadly abortion is so normal these days and done for reasons I consider non-valid (if a mother isn't ready for a child I must admit im of the rather harsh opinion she isnt mature enough to be having sex that can result in childbirth in the first place) and occasionally for reasons I do consider valid (such as if the mothers life is at risk or in instances of rape etc..). I think every effort should be made to encourage people to keep their children rather than aborting, BUT as people arent going to change over night and I don't want people dying from unsafe backalley abortion procedures I realize it has to exsist.

Good, that's a very sane approach.

 

[cantata]

This "Doctor" would have taken his place anyway.

Ah yes, of course. Since this doctor was willing to perform abortions, he must also have been willing to gas thousands of Jews, disabled people, homosexuals, and others, and would certainly have been endowed with the political clout to get elected.

 

[LittleNipper]

Ah yes, of course. Since this doctor was willing to perform abortions, he must also have been willing to gas thousands of Jews, disabled people, homosexuals, and others, and would certainly have been endowed with the political clout to get elected.

He was certainly willing to suck small babies apart, burn them with salt solutions, or just let them lay about until they died. Seems hat they often incinerate aborted "tissue" do they not?

 

[wanderingone]

a) Why is killing a 1 year old worse than killing a 30 year old?

You tell me, I didn't think killing a 1 year old was worse than killing a 30 year old.

b) If George Washington had been aborted where would the US be today?

We'd have had a different 1st president?

 

[wanderingone]

This "Doctor" would have taken his place anyway.

The doctor has notions of a superior race and advocated and carried out plans to kill millions who didn't fit into his beliefs regarding who should be destroyed to keep them from destroying that perfect "race"?

 

[cantata]

He was certainly willing to suck small babies apart, burn them with salt solutions, or just let them lay about until they died. Seems hat they often incinerate aborted "tissue" do they not?

I don't know what his techniques were. Does it matter? He clearly wasn't a Nazi dictator, and would never have been one.

What wanderingone said:

The doctor has notions of a superior race and advocated and carried out plans to kill millions who didn't fit into his beliefs regarding who should be destroyed to keep them from destroying that perfect "race"?

 

[Allegory]

This thread is worse than 9/11.

 

[LittleNipper]

The doctor has notions of a superior race and advocated and carried out plans to kill millions who didn't fit into his beliefs regarding who should be destroyed to keep them from destroying that perfect "race"?

The doctor has notions (a belief ) of who is human and who is subhuman (fetus/preborn). Same difference. The whole race thing is simply another excuse at superiority. I am born already and they're not, so I can do what is okay in my eyes to them.

 

[LittleNipper]

I don't know what his techniques were. Does it matter? He clearly wasn't a Nazi dictator, and would never have been one.

What wanderingone said:

He is worse. He has become an honored authoratative postulate. And you do not even care what his techniques were? Did the Germans care what techniques were applied to others?

 

[Allegory]

Hyperbole is my favourite thing in the world. I love it even more than abortions.

 

[HaloHope]

But why is that bad, as far as the foetus is concerned? Why is it bad to have a shorter life rather than a longer one, if you are not given the opportunity to anticipate your death?

Im of the opnion life should only ideally be ended by old age or in cases of extreme illness if the person wishes to end their own life. A foetus is essentially killed if it is aborted and it obviously has no say in the matter. The longer we are on this planet the more chances we have to do posotive things.

Are there any secular reasons to believe that human life is intrinsically valuable?

Unless you believe a foetus is a person, then no I guess not, which is another reason Im pro-choice, my beliefs can't be law.

Good, that's a very sane approach.

Thank you, I do my best to not enforce my beliefs on another people (as I know it annoys me extremely when they do the same to me )

 

[Illuminatus]

A foetus is essentially killed if it is aborted and it obviously has no say in the matter.

Yup.

Know why?

Because a fetus doesn't have the brain, lungs, vocal cords, or mouth at the level of development necessary to speak, much less think at all.

For the record, I don't give the germs in my toilet bowl a choice as to whether I bleach them or not.

 

[Avatar]

Yup.

Know why?

Because a fetus doesn't have the brain, lungs, vocal cords, or mouth at the level of development necessary to speak, much less think at all.

For the record, I don't give the germs in my toilet bowl a choice as to whether I bleach them or not.

Wow, that instance of birth is magical isn't it? In just seconds a germ transforms into a human being. Truly awe inspiring.

 

[HaloHope]

For the record, I don't give the germs in my toilet bowl a choice as to whether I bleach them or not.

Germs in your toilet bowl dont have the potential to be living breathing human beings in the near future now do they?

 

[Exhausted]

Germs in your toilet bowl dont have the potential to be living breathing human beings in the near future now do they?

Neither do aborted fetuses. What's your point?

Potential is such a terrible argument. By the logic of potential, we should be utterly paralyzed to make any decision because in doing so we deprive ourselves of all alternatives- so much wasted potential.

Who cares if abortion is depriving some "humans" of a right to live? Are THEY complaining? Are their mothers? No, and no.

 

[HaloHope]

Neither do aborted fetuses. What's your point?

A fairly unessecerily harsh comment on whats been a civil debate so far, your well aware what my point was.

Potential is such a terrible argument. By the logic of potential, we should be utterly paralyzed to make any decision because in doing so we deprive ourselves of all alternatives- so much wasted potential.

I disagree potential isnt a terrible argument when its highly likely to be an even that occours. For example:- I could say "Id better not go to work tomorrow, because theres potential I might change the world sitting at home", its possible. Yet an extremely unlikely level of potential. A foetus has a incredibly strong potential of becoming a baby unless tragic circumstances unfold. Theres a big potential it will be born grow up and have some kind of effect on the world. I see cutting that short as a very sad thing.

Who cares if abortion is depriving some "humans" of a right to live? Are THEY complaining? Are their mothers? No, and no.

The mothers arent complaining though (although some may regret it later, not all will thats for sure), but they arent complaining as they never get a chance to complain become the humans they are all set to be.

But regardless, Ive already stated my position is pro-choice, you wont change my mind abortion is ever a good thing if its for "convenience" and I wont convince you a foetus has a right to live. Its fairly simple really.

 

[Autumnleaf]

I would be fascinated by this if you could actually demonstrate it to be true.

"Most people"? Yeah, sure, that totally explains why abortion is legal in more and more places, and it also explains why so many women get abortions every day. Because most folks know it's evil, and it's only a crazy minority pushing abortion on the rest of us good Christians!

What color is the sky in your world?

Even people I know who have gotten abortions say they think it is wrong and they regret having done it. Who are your friends and what do they say about it? You can't be a little bit pregnant. If you are in for a penny you are in for a pound in that situation. How you handle it defines you and how you treat others.

 

[Exhausted]

I make no claims about what women who have gotten abortions think or feel. I have no evidence to back up these claims, you see.

I imagine, though, that abortion is never a fun time to be had, and even if a woman were to decide it were the best option in her situation, that hardly makes it pleasant. Indeed, I would hazard a guess that many women might feel the maternal loss on an instinctual level, regardless of what they feel on an intellectual level.

 

[Allegory]

Germs in your toilet bowl dont have the potential to be living breathing human beings in the near future now do they?

I have flushed entire civilizations down the toilet.

 

[cantata]

Im of the opnion life should only ideally be ended by old age or in cases of extreme illness if the person wishes to end their own life. A foetus is essentially killed if it is aborted and it obviously has no say in the matter. The longer we are on this planet the more chances we have to do posotive things.

This rests on the belief that life is intrinsically valuable, though. I can't imagine how that could work, to be honest. I don't think anything is intrinsically valuable. The idea of intrinsic value is completely confusing to me.

As far as I'm concerned, life is valuable insofar as people want it. A foetus can't want to live in any real sense. Of course it doesn't have a say in the matter. Why would it? Do chickens have a say in the matter when they are slaughtered? I have much greater moral qualms about the slaughter of animals for food than I do about abortion, because those animals are generally able to experience fear and pain. Suffering worries me far more than any airy-fairy notion of "potential". And it seems to me that abortion reduces the suffering in the world rather than increasing it.

Unless you believe a foetus is a person, then no I guess not, which is another reason Im pro-choice, my beliefs can't be law.

Fair enough.

Thank you, I do my best to not enforce my beliefs on another people (as I know it annoys me extremely when they do the same to me )

Also fair enough.