A wall of separation. Or not.

[Conspiracy Theory]

Apparently it's ok for the police to use a church to take such dangerous things as the USS Cadmus off the street.

 

[Ringo84]

Apparently it's ok for the police to use a church to take such dangerous things as the USS Cadmus off the street.

That's right: a wall of separation between church and state - erected to protect religious liberty through governmental non-interference.

Any questions?
Ringo

 

[JustOneWay]

What wall are you talking about Endgame? The wall between Church and gun? I see many here on CF that would part with their Bible before they would part with their gun.

 

[Barren]

Please point out where it says "Separation," or "Church" or "State" in the Constitution.

From what I read, it says "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or preventing the free exercise thereof." The whole philosophy behind "separation of church and state" is contrary to what the Founders had intended, and contrary to the plain English text that they inserted into the Constitution.

A.) learn English
B.) buy a dictionary
C.) realize that the Constitution tells the Federal government to stay the heck out of religion. They have no authority to decide prayer in schools, ten commandments in a courthouse, a nativity scene on a library lawn, or ANYTHING religious. It's the states job to decide those things.

 

[Motor City Christian]

Exactly, Barren!

 

[BlueFalcon]

That's right: a wall of separation between church and state - erected to protect religious liberty through governmental non-interference.

Any questions?
Ringo

Kinda funny how it doesn't go both ways.

 

[I Just Believe In Me]

Please point out where it says "Separation," or "Church" or "State" in the Constitution.

From what I read, it says "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or preventing the free exercise thereof." The whole philosophy behind "separation of church and state" is contrary to what the Founders had intended, and contrary to the plain English text that they inserted into the Constitution.

A.) learn English
B.) buy a dictionary
C.) realize that the Constitution tells the Federal government to stay the heck out of religion. They have no authority to decide prayer in schools, ten commandments in a courthouse, a nativity scene on a library lawn, or ANYTHING religious. It's the states job to decide those things.

Since the constitution is binding to the states the states can not establish religion either, and as such cannot place religious monuments on government property, or have government officials lead prayers in public schools.

Seperation of chucrch and state is exactly what was intended by the founders. That is why Thomas Jefferson, one of the founders, used the phrase.

 

[Ringo84]

Please point out where it says "Separation," or "Church" or "State" in the Constitution.

From what I read, it says "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or preventing the free exercise thereof." The whole philosophy behind "separation of church and state" is contrary to what the Founders had intended, and contrary to the plain English text that they inserted into the Constitution.

A.) learn English
B.) buy a dictionary
C.) realize that the Constitution tells the Federal government to stay the heck out of religion. They have no authority to decide prayer in schools, ten commandments in a courthouse, a nativity scene on a library lawn, or ANYTHING religious. It's the states job to decide those things.

Please point out where it says "Separation," or "Church" or "State" in the Constitution.

Point out where it is in the Bible where it says "trinity". Point out in the Constitution where it says "federalism".

The whole philosophy behind "separation of church and state" is contrary to what the Founders had intended

Prove it.

and contrary to the plain English text that they inserted into the Constitution.

Prove it.

C.) realize that the Constitution tells the Federal government to stay the heck out of religion.

That's right. If you acknowledge that fact, why do you take such a position of ignorance against the very aspect of our government that keeps the government out of religion?

They have no authority to decide prayer in schools

Prayer in school has not been affected in any way.

ten commandments in a courthouse

If you want the government to keep out of religion, why do you seem so intent upon placing it on government property?

It's the states job to decide those things.

No it's not. If religion is such a private thing, as you correctly claim, then it should be regulated by personal conscience - not by either federal or state government. That's why we have the Separation of Church and State.

If you're going to start a debate about this issue with me, you had better have your facts in order. You obviously do not.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

Kinda funny how it doesn't go both ways.

Meaning what? Elaborate, please.
Ringo

 

[BlueFalcon]

Meaning what? Elaborate, please.
Ringo

Either you have a wall of seperation or you don't.

There's no two ways about it.

Allowing the government to use a religious thing breaks down that wall.

 

[vitodabona]

If you are going to claim that this is a violation of the separation of church and state, please show how this particular church (Shiloh Baptist Church) was in anyway forced or coerced into participating in this program.

 

[Voegelin]

Seperation of chucrch and state is exactly what was intended by the founders. That is why Thomas Jefferson, one of the founders, used the phrase.

What Jefferson wrote in a letter is not law.

No more than what Bill Clinton wrote to his supporters.

Fisher Ames (Federalist-MA) drafted the First Amendment and did so to protect state established churches.

Jefferson wasn't even in the country when the constitution was adopted. His letter to the Danbury Baptists, years later, was a political message. Jefferson was stroking his Baptists friends because he wanted their help in overthrowing the Federalist clergy in Connecticut. To that end, Jefferson even hired a minister, David Allen, to preach that his reelection in 1804 would led to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Baptists, despite being allied with Jefferson, were leery of his liberal Christianity. At the time of Jefferson's letter (1802) Baptists in Connecticut paid taxes which supported Congregational and what would become Unitarian churches. As he made his Unitarian beliefs well known, Baptists feared, as President, Jefferson would extend that practice to the Federal government. Jefferson was simply telling them he would not.

Just because a one time Klu Klux Klan leader (Hugo Black) FDR appointed to the Supreme Court inserted that phrase into constitutional law doesn't change history. Or make what Black did right (Black didn't even read Jefferson's letter himself. Leo Pfeffer, lead lawyer for the American Jewish Congress, fed it to him and told him to put the phrase in his decision).

 

[NeTrips]

Apparently it's ok for the police to use a church to take such dangerous things as the USS Cadmus off the street.

missed it again. Let me know the next time one of these is planned. I've got some old cheap guns no longer usable that I'd like to turn into cash so I can buy more new stuff.

 

[Ringo84]

Either you have a wall of seperation or you don't.

There's no two ways about it.

Allowing the government to use a religious thing breaks down that wall.

There is a wall of separation, and it seeks to keep the government out of religion and the church institution out of government.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

What Jefferson wrote in a letter is not law.

True, but it shows us the intention of the founder who is responsible for religious freedom in this country during its infancy.

Fisher Ames (Federalist-MA) drafted the First Amendment

You keep insisting this, although even the Encyclopedia Brittanica has no mention of Ames having anything to do with the First Amendment. And when the Encyclopedia, of all things, does not mention Ames having involvement with the First Amendment, that is a fairly hard blow to one's assertions.

did so to protect state established churches.

Churches that, for the most part, were quickly being disestablished as the Constitution was ratified - due in part to Jefferson's disestablishment of the state church in my home state of Virginia.

His letter to the Danbury Baptists, years later, was a political message. Jefferson was stroking his Baptists friends because he wanted their help in overthrowing the Federalist clergy in Connecticut. To that end, Jefferson even hired a minister, David Allen, to preach that his reelection in 1804 would led to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Wrong. Jefferson wrote that letter to allay Connecticut Baptists' fears that their religious rights were being trampled upon by the state church in Connecticut.

Just because a one time Klu Klux Klan leader (Hugo Black) FDR appointed to the Supreme Court inserted that phrase into constitutional law doesn't change history.

IF that's true - and I have my doubts about the accuracy of Black's involvement - it does not, in fact, have any bearing on my philosophical reasons for supporting church/state separation or Jefferson's.

Your attempt to compare the Separation of Church and State - which has protected religious freedom in this country since its inception - won't succeed. The founders were apparently more wise than you when they realized that only when the government leaves religion completely to personal conscience can true religious freedom thrive.
Ringo

 

[LonesomeTexan]

seperation of church in state... what a joke. If I was a teacher, I'd still pray at school. And any snot nosed kid that tried to sue me would lose. It's time we take this country back folks. A country that isn't free to express religion in the public square isn't free at all. When we lose sight of our proud heritage, we will fall. God should be praised everywhere and we shouldn't be ashamed of our faith.

 

[Ringo84]

seperation of church in state... what a joke. If I was a teacher, I'd still pray at school. And any snot nosed kid that tried to sue me would lose. It's time we take this country back folks. A country that isn't free to express religion in the public square isn't free at all. When we lose sight of our proud heritage, we will fall. God should be praised everywhere and we shouldn't be ashamed of our faith.

seperation of church in state... what a joke.

Religious freedom is a joke?

If I was a teacher, I'd still pray at school

Mandatory prayer has been banned. Prayer in general has not.

It's time we take this country back folks.

"Take the country back" from what? From religious freedom? From leaving religion to personal consciences instead of the government's ham-fisted hands? You'll pardon me if I - as well as our founding fathers - don't agree.

A country that isn't free to express religion in the public square isn't free at all.

I challenge that assertion. Who said that we aren't free to express religion in the public square?

I submit that a country whose government involves itself in religion isn't free at all.

God should be praised everywhere and we shouldn't be ashamed of our faith.

Who said that you should be ashamed of your faith?

Ringo's Law #1: The longer church/state issues are debated and/or discussed on an online forum, the probability that someone will make wild, easily-disproved claims (such as we have seen here with Lonesome Texan and Voegelin) approaches one.
Ringo

 

[JustOneWay]

seperation of church in state... what a joke. If I was a teacher, I'd still pray at school. And any snot nosed kid that tried to sue me would lose.

Is that your witness? If so, you may want to reconsider because you may turn many people, including children from Christianity.

 

[LonesomeTexan]

Alan Keyes says it best. Liberal interpretation of the first amendment is what has gotten our country into so much trouble.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aYr0IKze13s

 

[Ringo84]

Alan Keyes says it best. Liberal interpretation of the first amendment is what has gotten our country into so much trouble.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aYr0IKze13s

That's interesting. Considering how it is my position that the government should stay out of religion, which is a common cry among conservatives who don't trust the government, I submit that my position is the conservative one.

Still waiting for proof that the Separation of Church and State was not what the founders intended or that it is "harmful" to our country, but I won't hold my breath.
Ringo