Virginia school board votes to restore Confederate names to two schools

Desk trauma said:

By reading about Ches conduct during and after the Cuban revolution written by other leftist revolutionaries and noticing he was a authoritarian nutcase among authoritarian nutcases…

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But he looks so cool and he rides a motorcycle! *squee*

RocksInMyHead said:

But he looks so cool and he rides a motorcycle! *squee*

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And welcomed nuclear war, what’s not to like?

Desk trauma said:

By reading about Ches conduct during and after the Cuban revolution written by other leftist revolutionaries and noticing he was a authoritarian nutcase among authoritarian nutcases…

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It was a joke, man. All I learned about Che in college was that he was a Cuban revolutionary I'd never heard of before college.

Hans Blaster said:

T

The confederacy was pure treason.

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When I said "the Confederacy stuff" I was talking about the topic of this thread - the renaming of schools and tearing down of statues.

Chesterton said:

When I said "the Confederacy stuff" I was talking about the topic of this thread - the renaming of schools and tearing down of statues.

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The names and statues were propaganda in the first place, to fabricate honor long after the actual history. Good riddance.

Pommer said:

Did this post #220 have a point?

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Yeah, I replied to a post where you said Obama had to be clean before he could attempt to run for president, then you moved the goalpost by telling me he had a clean presidency. Getting into office and being in office are two different things. Especially in his case.

If you think anyone is going to go after the first black American president, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. The man almost literally got away with murder by taking the unprecedented illegal action of having an American citizen assassinated.

Chesterton said:

When I said "the Confederacy stuff" I was talking about the topic of this thread - the renaming of schools and tearing down of statues.

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Fine. Beyond the literal treason of the confederacy (which needs no honors) there is the use of confederate symbols and iconography as a tool of white supremacy. That's the thing we've been dancing around with the naming and de-naming and renaming of these schools long after the living memory of the confederacy.

durangodawood said:

The names and statues were propaganda in the first place, to fabricate honor long after the actual history. Good riddance.

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Remember that time President Reagan visited the cemetery with soldiers who fought for Nazi Germany? Some people didn't like that, but they were wrong. The soldiers do deserve honor. If you don't like the Confederacy you should direct your ire at the politicians who started the war. Soldiers don't start wars, they just do what they're called to do.

Hans Blaster said:

Fine. Beyond the literal treason of the confederacy (which needs no honors) there is the use of confederate symbols and iconography as a tool of white supremacy. That's the thing we've been dancing around with the naming and de-naming and renaming of these schools long after the living memory of the confederacy.

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I'm not in disagreement with what you say above. From what I recall, my first post in this thread was simply to make the point that the renaming is being done because of the "white supremacy" and not because of the treason. At least three posters had said it was about the treason and others agreed with them, and that's just silly.

Chesterton said:

Remember that time President Reagan visited the cemetery with soldiers who fought for Nazi Germany? Some people didn't like that, but they were wrong. The soldiers do deserve honor. If you don't like the Confederacy you should direct your ire at the politicians who started the war. Soldiers don't start wars, they just do what they're called to do.

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I wouldnt disturb confederate cemetaries. But we're talking schools and town squares here.

durangodawood said:

I wouldnt disturb confederate cemetaries. But we're talking schools and town squares here.

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Right, and I think the kind of figure depicted. Compare these two:

For instance, there was some complaint here in the small southern town where I live, about the Confederate monument. It is relatively small and has a generic bronze statue of a Confederate enlisted man. It is a monument to the men of the town and immediate surroundings (probably all from the same unit) who died in the war.

On the other hand, you may have, say, an heroic statue of Lee on a charging horse, located prominently on the capital grounds of a state in which he never fought. That monument sends an entirely different message than the first and is the one which should be pulled down.

Chesterton said:

I'm not in disagreement with what you say above. From what I recall, my first post in this thread was simply to make the point that the renaming is being done because of the "white supremacy" and not because of the treason. At least three posters had said it was about the treason and others agreed with them, and that's just silly.

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It is about that. I was hoping anyone who was "pro confederate name" might back out on the fact that the namesakes were traitors. Things get kind of tight when the other notion is inferred about another poster.

Hans Blaster said:

It is about that.

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In a previous post I asked you to provide info to back up this claim. You never did. Here's your second chance.

I couldn't find anything specific to renaming, but Wiki does have an article featuring a list of removed monuments. The very first sentence in the article says "During the civil unrest[1] that followed the murder of George Floyd in May 2020, a number of monuments and memorials associated with racial injustice were vandalized, destroyed or removed,..." The article cites racial injustice; it makes no mention of traitors or treason.

Hans Blaster said:

I was hoping anyone who was "pro confederate name" might back out on the fact that the namesakes were traitors. Things get kind of tight when the other notion is inferred about another poster.

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We've already discussed this. Why would it be a concern that they were traitors when our beloved Founding Fathers were traitors?

Chesterton said:

We've already discussed this. Why would it be a concern that they were traitors when our beloved Founding Fathers were traitors?

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The founding fathers were traitors to Britain, not America. I'm not British. Are you?

Again, it's not that treason is a moral failing - it's that it's betrayal of one's country. If your treason succeeds and you create a new country (or take control of the country), then the future citizens of that country generally won't care because their country - the one that they live in - was not the one you betrayed. It's very rare for a country to honor a failed traitor though, and the actual moral failings of the Confederacy (slavery) make that even harder to justify.

Chesterton said:

In a previous post I asked you to provide info to back up this claim. You never did. Here's your second chance.

I couldn't find anything specific to renaming, but Wiki does have an article featuring a list of removed monuments. The very first sentence in the article says "During the civil unrest[1] that followed the murder of George Floyd in May 2020, a number of monuments and memorials associated with racial injustice were vandalized, destroyed or removed,..." The article cites racial injustice; it makes no mention of traitors or treason.

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I just said I was giving posters a chance to reject the naming based on not naming things after traitors. (This goes to the "history" argument use to do such things.) It is absolutely clear that the motivation to name schools after such traitors is to use memory of the confederacy to emphasize the ideology of white supremacy.

Chesterton said:

We've already discussed this. Why would it be a concern that they were traitors when our beloved Founding Fathers were traitors?

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Not to the US, but to an abomination (monarchy). There is a difference. If the British don't want to build statutes to Washington, that is fine with me.

RocksInMyHead said:

The founding fathers were traitors to Britain, not America. I'm not British. Are you?

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That doesn't matter when we're talking about treason as a general hypothetical.

RocksInMyHead said:

Again, it's not that treason is a moral failing - it's that it's betrayal of one's country. If your treason succeeds and you create a new country (or take control of the country), then the future citizens of that country generally won't care because their country - the one that they live in - was not the one you betrayed. It's very rare for a country to honor a failed traitor though, and the actual moral failings of the Confederacy (slavery) make that even harder to justify.

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You seem to be going by the old adage that "you can't legislate morality", when the truth is that all legislation is an expression of morality.

Hans Blaster said:

I just said I was giving posters a chance to reject the naming based on not naming things after traitors. (This goes to the "history" argument use to do such things.) It is absolutely clear that the motivation to name schools after such traitors is to use memory of the confederacy to emphasize the ideology of white supremacy.

Not to the US, but to an abomination (monarchy). There is a difference. If the British don't want to build statutes to Washington, that is fine with me.

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You quoted me, but you did not respond to what I said.

So you think monarchy is an abomination? Well I think Sherman was a war criminal.

Chesterton said:

You quoted me, but you did not respond to what I said.

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I think I did.

Chesterton said:

So you think monarchy is an abomination?

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Of course.

Chesterton said:

Well I think Sherman was a war criminal.

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He's my anti-neo-Confederate spirit animal.

Chesterton said:

That doesn't matter when we're talking about treason as a general hypothetical.

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But we're not talking about treason as a general hypothetical. We're talking about specific instances of treason. The reason why America honors the treasonous founding fathers while rejecting the treasonous Confederacy is entirely down to who the treason was against.

Chesterton said:

You seem to be going by the old adage that "you can't legislate morality",

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Nope.

Chesterton said:

when the truth is that all legislation is an expression of morality.

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Absolutely incorrect - unless you believe that all governments are divinely appointed. Which I don't.

Chesterton said:

That doesn't matter when we're talking about treason as a general hypothetical.

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As "Rocks" stated, we are not talking of treason as a general thing being bad. Someone who committed treason right now against Iran, or Russia, or North Korea might be someone I would hail as a hero. Many of a nations greatest assists came as acts of treason against some other country.