Israel-Hamas Thread II

Valletta

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...and 6 months into the conflict, after Israel made this decision, we still don't know what progress the Israeli military has made in destroying the tunnel network. We do know the Israelis no longer have sufficient forces to take and hold territory as demonstrated by their need to return to the main hospital and root out hundreds of Hamas fighters last month (and in doing so, the hospital is completely non-functional). We also know that at least 30 thousands Palestinian lives have been lost, nearly 200 aid workers, etc. And thousands more face malnourshiment and starvation. It's hard for me to accept the military value gained (whatever that may be) is worth the human cost.
We don't know how many Palestinians are dead, the media has been irresponsible in spreading Hamas propaganda. The Israelis never had the forces to hold all of Gaza permanently, Israel is trying to free the hostages and eliminate Hamas. Unfortunately Joe Biden and others have undermined Israel's efforts and thus more lives will be lost.
 
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truthpls

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We don't know how many Palestinians are dead, the media has been irresponsible in spreading Hamas propaganda. The Israelis never had the forces to hold all of Gaza permanently, Israel is trying to free the hostages and eliminate Hamas. Unfortunately Joe Biden and others have undermined Israel's efforts and thus more lives will be lost.
They almost seem to be thinking 'the more we starve and shoot and bomb and relocate, the less soldiers will be needed'
 
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Philip_B

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Yes I certainly understand the human cost concerns. War is a very tragic thing. It's probably one of the worst undertakings humanity does and has done throughout history. Sometimes it is necessary. And there is a very great cost when it occurs in the death and destruction.
War is tragic and unlike plagues, pandemics, earthquakes, wildfires, floods, and volcanic eruptions, war is the specific result of human action. War is an un-natural disaster. War has many costs, and many of them are human costs, not simply death and destruction mainly born by those who do not make the decisions, but also the opportunity costs of the things not done. War also makes profits for many, perhaps the victor, perhaps employment, or untold financial gain on the part of those who make and supply weapons and ammunition.

But if you start a war then you'd better be prepared for the other side to respond.
When you make an argument, one of the things that is important is where you choose to begin. If you take the starting point as the 7th of October 2023 you will conclude, logically and correctly as you have done. The flaw in this is of course that the argument starts without assessing what led to the events of that date. No doubt someone should have said at the time don't poke the bear! In reality, it was a very low-tech assault on a target with a lot of high-tech (super expensive) defence systems. I don't think the event was justifiable, I don't think it was acceptable, and I don't think it was in the interests of either Israel or Palestine. I strongly suspect that Hamas was played by third-party actors as a useful idiot - and those actors may well in in Iran.

Yet whilst I deplore the brutal nature of what happened, one has to ask if the Palestinians have a just cause. Around 1900 the Palestinians accounted for 94% of the population of the region. In the wake of the rise of the Zionist movement in the late 19th century (the late 1800s) there was a rise in Jewish migration to the area. Lord Balfour (whose painting was slashed recently at Cambridge University) was responsible for some duplicitous dealing with Lawrence of Arabia and King Faisal which led to the Balfour Declaration marking Britain's commitment to the establishment of a Jewish State without regard to the people who were living there. The practice of ignoring the Palestinian people's existence has continued apace, including the 1948 establishment of the Jewish State, and the 1967 (link here) which quite simply fails to mention the Palestinians at all. So if you start the argument there, you may well reach a different conclusion, logically and correctly.

Ultimately you have to start somewhere. If you start with the children of Noah, and specifically Shem, you might conclude that this is a family argument where the children don't want to play nicely and share things as nice children ought properly to do.

Genesis 17:8 is another place to begin "And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God." and many argue that this makes Israel's case, save that the Gaza Strip was not part of the land of Canaan, but rather Philistia - home of the Philistines.

But at this point they don't seem willing to finish what Hamas started. That is a mistake. I would say at the point Hamas won't be ultimately defeated until the tunnels are taken and destroyed.
I am not sure of the argument here. Israel and Israeli intelligence almost certainly know where most if not all the tunnels are. To that end Israeli Military have developed the Sponge Bomb which they have deployed effectively when required. I am left feeling that this is a bit of a PR BlackBox that Israel keeps tapping on because it seems good, and no one can see it.

This war may well be won or lost on the streets of Washington and Tel Aviv. The problem is, as I noted on observer remarking the other day, the world has moved from a post-war world to a pre-war world, and I regard that as a matter of great concern.
 
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Valletta

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"We must remind the US and the West that while Israel is the one fighting this war, it is not just Israel's war. It is being waged against those who view Israel as the spearhead of Western civilization. This is a war over the global and regional order, against the radical axis that has united two rival camps – Shiites and Sunnis – solely due to their shared desire to annihilate Israel and weaken Western influence.
Israel must act resolutely to achieve all war aims, unconditionally and as soon as possible. Discussing operational plans with the Biden administration leaves it no choice but to oppose the operation, as it would not want to be seen as approving actions that could harm uninvolved civilians - which despite best efforts, cannot be guaranteed. If so, we should re-evaluate the need for such joint discussions and at what level they should take place.
The struggle against Hamas must be defined as a perpetual mission – total war against the terror organization wherever it exists."
 
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essentialsaltes

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"We must remind the US and the West that while Israel is the one fighting this war, it is not just Israel's war. It is being waged against those who view Israel as the spearhead of Western civilization.
Sadly for you, even if Israel were a paragon of 'the West', at least one faction in the US is strongly America First and doesn't care about 'the West'.

The struggle against Hamas must be defined as a perpetual mission

No thanks.
 
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truthpls

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"We must remind the US and the West that while Israel is the one fighting this war, it is not just Israel's war. It is being waged against those who view Israel as the spearhead of Western civilization. This is a war over the global and regional order, against the radical axis that has united two rival camps – Shiites and Sunnis – solely due to their shared desire to annihilate Israel and weaken Western influence.
Israel must act resolutely to achieve all war aims, unconditionally and as soon as possible. Discussing operational plans with the Biden administration leaves it no choice but to oppose the operation, as it would not want to be seen as approving actions that could harm uninvolved civilians - which despite best efforts, cannot be guaranteed. If so, we should re-evaluate the need for such joint discussions and at what level they should take place.
The struggle against Hamas must be defined as a perpetual mission – total war against the terror organization wherever it exists."
Better still it should be viewed as love thy neighbor.
 
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rjs330

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strongly suspect that Hamas was played by third-party actors as a useful idiot - and those actors may well in in Iran.
You may be correct. However we have no evidence of that. I prefer to go by what we do have. Hamas has been attacking Israel for decades. Israel finally had enough.


The practice of ignoring the Palestinian people's existence has continued apace, including the 1948 establishment of the Jewish State, and the 1967 (link here) which quite simply fails to mention the Palestinians at all. So if you start the argument there, you may well reach a different conclusion, logically and correctly.
Except that they weren't Palestinians. There was never any such things as Palestinians as we talk about today. This area has been controlled by many different peoples rulers, governments or whatever else. The controlling rulers have always decided what was going on there. And Britian decided what to do.

Even when Israel decides to accept what was given and make their country they were attacked. They won. What did the so called Palestinians do? Did they accept it and then try and build their own state? Did they work on creating a prosperous state and build their own economy and all that goes with it? No they decided to continue to want, desire and try to destroy Israel. Look this is THEIR own problem.

The so called Palestinians could have done something different a LONG time ago. No they are not justified in doing what they have done.
Ultimately you have to start somewhere. If you start with the children of Noah, and specifically Shem, you might conclude that this is a family argument where the children don't want to play nicely and share things as nice children ought properly to do.
The Philistines were not and are not Palestinian Arabs.
This war may well be won or lost on the streets of Washington and Tel Aviv. The problem is, as I noted on observer remarking the other day, the world has moved from a post-war world to a pre-war world, and I regard that as a matter of great concern.
You may be correct. Eventually there will be more war with the rise of the Anti-Christ. A conquest of world order. We know that Israel will be central in all of that. But I will say I am not concerned in the least. Because I know this will all usher in the return of our Lord. And I look forward to that. Even though it may mean a lot of hardship in the mean time.

This Israel Palestinian conflictay or may not be part of it. I have no idea. But I support Israel doing what is necessary to end the Hamas threat.

But I also wonder from a layman's point of view if Hamas can be completely defeated if they are allowed to continue to hide and move within the tunnels.
 
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rjs330

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Sadly for you, even if Israel were a paragon of 'the West', at least one faction in the US is strongly America First and doesn't care about 'the West'.



No thanks.
The struggle against terrorism should always be a perpetual mission.
 
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Philip_B

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Except that they weren't Palestinians. There was never any such things as Palestinians as we talk about today. This area has been controlled by many different peoples rulers, governments or whatever else. The controlling rulers have always decided what was going on there. And Britian decided what to do.

Even when Israel decides to accept what was given and make their country they were attacked. They won. What did the so called Palestinians do? Did they accept it and then try and build their own state? Did they work on creating a prosperous state and build their own economy and all that goes with it? No they decided to continue to want, desire and try to destroy Israel. Look this is THEIR own problem.
That is a linguistic question. They are not an invented people. Your statements here echo the Cabinet Briefings from Lord Balfour who believed you could ignore them out of existence. Britain's track record in the Middle East has been largely deplorable. They were there to help ... themselves. Frankly, the US and the UN have not been much better. The Trump decision to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem was in absolute contradiction with everything that was established in 1948.
The Philistines were not and are not Palestinian Arabs.
I have not suggested that they are. I was simply affirming that by the Genesis reference, the Gaza Strip is not part of the promised land.
This Israel Palestinian conflictay or may not be part of it. I have no idea. But I support Israel doing what is necessary to end the Hamas threat.
I understand that you support Israel. As it happens so do I, however, I am not handing carte blanche to anyone (Israel, Palestine, Hamas ...) who chooses to act in ways that do not affirm the dignity of the human person. Ending threats has been entirely counter-productive in the Middle East. Defeating the Taliban gave birth to the Islamic State. Israel helped Fund Hamas to destabilise the PLO and so gave birth to a greater problem. I don't think any of it is easy, however, I don't believe genocide, not murdering aid workers is anything like a solution.
 
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truthpls

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How would you feel if the Indians decided to take back some of the land they occupied? Would you support them?
They do try. My opinion on that is God created the whole world. It is not he that gets to a beach first that owns it. I think it is also a good idea to try and live peaceably with people regardless of color or race
 
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rjs330

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That is a linguistic question. They are not an invented people. Your statements here echo the Cabinet Briefings from Lord Balfour who believed you could ignore them out of existence. Britain's track record in the Middle East has been largely deplorable. They were there to help ... themselves. Frankly, the US and the UN have not been much better. The Trump decision to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem was in absolute contradiction with everything that was established in 1948.
They are Arabs. Which aren't an invented people. "Palestinians" as used today are an invented people. There has never been a country of Palestine run by Arabs who controlled the region. You can complain about how Britain ran it, or the Romans or whomever. That's not relevant. What's relevant is there has never been a country of Palestine. The modern version is just some Arabs who happen to live in the area where the Jews lived and had as their country before being conquered. And not by the Arabs.
have not suggested that they are. I was simply affirming that by the Genesis reference, the Gaza Strip is not part of the promised land.
And until now Israel never claimed the Gaza strip as their land. Even now they don't claim it as theirs. The Arabs had it and could have done something with it but didn't.
understand that you support Israel. As it happens so do I, however, I am not handing carte blanche to anyone (Israel, Palestine, Hamas ...) who chooses to act in ways that do not affirm the dignity of the human person. Ending threats has been entirely counter-productive in the Middle East. Defeating the Taliban gave birth to the Islamic State. Israel helped Fund Hamas to destabilise the PLO and so gave birth to a greater problem. I don't think any of it is easy, however, I don't believe genocide, not murdering aid workers is anything like a solution.
I don't think with many Arabs in this region that you are ever going to stop creating terrorist, organizations. It won't matter if you are completely hands off. They will attack. It's who they are. Be nice and they consider it weakness and they'll attack. Be firm and they'll attack because they hate. So there is no way to stop all terrorism. But you can stop something. Make it clear that it won't be tolerated. Israel is better off being strong than weak in the long run.
 
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rjs330

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They do try. My opinion on that is God created the whole world. It is not he that gets to a beach first that owns it. I think it is also a good idea to try and live peaceably with people regardless of color or race
That's not what I asked. No the Indians have not tried taking back their land. I don't mean through the courts. I mean launch attacks. Would you support them doing that?
 
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JosephZ

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Except that they weren't Palestinians. There was never any such things as Palestinians as we talk about today.
Regardless of what you believe about Palestinians, the Palestinian people see themselves as a distinct people with deep historical ties to the land that Israel currently occupies. This cannot be denied, and it doesn't matter if you or anyone else refuses to accept their existence; they have and will continue to exist. Recognizing Palestine and the Palestinian people is at the foundation of achieving peace between Israel and the Arab world.

How would you feel if the Indians decided to take back some of the land they occupied? Would you support them?
This is a great question. What would you do if the native Americans started moving to and occupying your state in large numbers and eventually demanded that you and your family move out because it was their ancestral land? Would you resist and try to keep your land and home, or would you just pack up and leave?

And until now Israel never claimed the Gaza strip as their land. Even now they don't claim it as theirs. The Arabs had it and could have done something with it but didn't.
Since 2007, Israel has imposed an air, land, and sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, restricting the movement of people and goods. Prior to this, there have been blockades of varying degrees dating back to the early 1990s. Israel hasn't given the Palestinians an opportunity to prosper in Gaza, nor does Israel want them to.
 
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wing2000

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But if you start a war then you'd better be prepared for the other side to respond. And Israel responded

The Hamas leadership knew Israel would react very strongly to their attack on Israeli citizens. They also knew that Israel would be unable to eliminate Hamas without killing tens of thousands of civilians and, in the process, casuing Israel to lose poltical support globally. On that count, Hamas has succeeded.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Opinion: I’m Jewish, and I’ve covered wars. I know war crimes when I see them.

Peter Maass is the author of “Love Thy Neighbor: A Story of War.” He covered the Bosnia war for The Post, and the invasion of Iraq for the New York Times Magazine.

How does it feel to be a war-crimes reporter whose family bankrolled a nation that’s committing war crimes?

I can tell you.

... my ancestors were key funders of Jewish emigration to British-controlled Palestine. The Warburgs and Schiffs donated millions of dollars to that cause, and during the war between Jews and Arabs that started in 1948, they helped raise vast sums for the new state of Israel.

As Israeli forces grind through Gaza in what the International Court of Justice defines as a “plausible” case of genocide, my family’s history of philanthropy runs into my familiarity with war crimes. When Israel bombs and shoots civilians, blocks food aid, attacks hospitals and cuts off water supplies, I remember the same outrages in Bosnia. When people in a Gaza flour line were attacked, I thought of the Sarajevans killed waiting in line for bread, and the perpetrators who in each case insisted the victims were slaughtered by their own side.
Atrocities tend to rhyme.

Everyone makes their own choices, but my experience of war crimes taught me that being Jewish means standing against any nation that commits war crimes.

Any.

[Hamas atrocities] does not give Israel a pass to respond as it pleases. An eye for an eye — or a hundred eyes for one eye — is not a thing in international law. A key tenet of the laws of warfare is that an attack that endangers civilians must be militarily necessary, and any civilian casualties that occur must be proportional to the military gain.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Dying for a bag of flour: Videos and eyewitness accounts cast doubt on Israel’s timeline of deadly Gaza aid delivery

Mark Regev, the Israeli prime minister’s special adviser, initially told CNN that Israeli forces had not been involved. Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, the Israel Defense Forces’ (IDF) spokesman, said soon after that soldiers had not fired directly on Palestinians seeking aid, but rather fired “warning shots” in the air.

On March 8, after an internal investigation, the IDF released a timeline suggesting that the aid convoy began to cross into northern Gaza accompanied by its tanks at 4:29 a.m. A minute later, at 4:30 a.m., the IDF said its troops fired “warning shots” toward the east to disperse crowds before firing at “suspects” who they claimed posed a threat. At 4:45 a.m., the military said it fired more warning shots.

But CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos from the night and testimonies from eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on Israel’s version of events. The evidence, reviewed by forensic and ballistic experts, indicated that automatic gunfire began before the IDF said the convoy had started crossing through the checkpoint and that shots were fired within close range of crowds that had gathered for food.

The IDF have not yet responded to CNN’s questions on these findings.
 
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truthpls

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That's not what I asked. No the Indians have not tried taking back their land. I don't mean through the courts. I mean launch attacks. Would you support them doing that?
? In BC there is more than 100% of the land under various native claims. Every interest group regardless of race or color more or less pushes for their own best interests. That is human nature. Wars did not begin when Europeans explored the world you know. So you ask if I support selected races and peoples conducting murder and terror to get what they think they deserve? No. I do support civil disobedience when it comes to obeying God first, despite some regulations or laws of man. I think the underground believers of the early church helped to end the Roman empire. I think exposing evil and telling the truth and standing for righteousness helps make the world a better place, and even sometimes change who runs parts of it. I do not support mass murdering women and children and shooting up cities and schools and food lines and fleeing convoys and starving people.
 
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