Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

[Copperhead]

If you notice, Paul writes to the Thessalonians again and refers back to that passage and expounds upon it in 2 Thessalonians 2.

In the second letter to the Thessalonians, he references how the false messiah will not be revealed until the "He", which many hold is the Holy Spirit, is taken out of the way. For that to happen, the primary task of the HS, to deliver the bride to the Messiah, would have to previously happen. Paul starts chapter 2 outlining this is in regard to our being gathered to the Lord.

Also, Paul gets on the Thessalonians' case in that second letter to them for thinking that they had already entered the time of the great tribulation period because a false letter had been circulating, claiming to be from Paul, that the tribulation had started. Paul reminds them of what he had taught them (that is telling the reader to look back at 1 Thessalonians) how this could not be the case and then expounds how this could not happen until the false messiah be revealed, and that revealing couldn't happen until the HS be taken out of the way. Therefore, there is no way for the first seal (the revealing of the false messiah or "antichrist") to start with the Bride (Church) still being on the earth!!

Long before the reference of the large crowd in Heaven, there is mention of the 24 Elders dressed in white robes and wearing crowns. White robes are given to the righteous believers. Crowns are rewards for faithful service. Why are there 24 Elders? David, back in 1 Chronicles 23, divided the priests into 24 groups, establishing the pattern to follow in the future. The believers are called kings and priests in Revelation 1:6. Peter states that we are a royal priesthood in 1 Peter 2:9. The 24 Elders confirm they are those kings and priests in Revelation 5:10. All of this before the 1st seal is opened. These 24 Elders are the Church before the throne of God.

I would concede that the removal of the righteous before the 1st seal is "theory", as all theological positions can be construed as "theory", but it is based on sound reasoning from scripture and far from being anything that could be considered as mythological.

If you notice, I made no mention of John being caught up as a picture of the Church being removed or "raptured". I don't disagree with that idea, but one can solidly make the case without that assertion.

 

[iamlamad]

I have read and reread........what am I missing? I can't find anywhere I said that believers are overtaken. Please show where I quoted this.

1 Thes. 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

We don't get overtaken, we get raptured. It is a bad thing that happens to those in darkness, but a good thing that happens to those living in Christ. We may not have even a tiny hint anything is about to happen, but SUDDENLY, with no warning (Paul is talking about a sudden event) the dead in Christ fly up out of their graves. And just as suddenly those who are alive and in Christ will fly up with them, our bodies changed in an instant of time. And just as suddenly, the "Sudden Destruction" earthquake catches all those left behind. They cannot escape, for it will be a world wide earthquake.

 

[iamlamad]

When the pretrib rapture occurs the world will not see Him. He will be hiddien.
Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
As for what is secret about a loud trumpet blast and loud shout? Those things happen in heaven. What it heard on earth?
Song of Solomon 2
12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

Most people suppose He will be hidden in a cloud. Most people suppose He will not be seen. However, I can find no scripture to prove or disprove that.

It seems you imagine that Song of Solomon is really talking about the rapture. I don't imagine that. Yes, there is a trumpet blast and a shout, but these things have happened many times on earth.

Next, can you prove by scripture that we on earth will not hear this trumpet blast? I cannot. I suspect it WILL be heard - by all.

It is really difficult to be certain about things the bible does not make clear.
Will He be seen? Will the trumpet blast be heard on earth? We will wait and see.

 

[iamlamad]

You are absolutely incorrect. Here's what God says about it.
1 Thes 5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
The Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night to none believers. Believers are given signs to look for. They are also told to look up, their redemption draws nigh.......when the things of Matt 24 begin to come to pass. For you say to anything else is a complete disagreement with the Word of God.
As for the pretribulation rapture, the Goodman will not know when He is coming. He will come when you think not. The unbelieving world is not looking for Him to come. Only believers are looking and they are told he will come in an hour that you think not........there will be no signs.

Matt 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

What does that mean - as a thief in the night? It only means, no one knows the day nor the hour. It seems then that we COULD know the week or the month and for sure we can know the season.

WHY does the Day come as a thief? It is because HE comes as a thief. When He comes for His bride, no one will know the exact time.

What you are missing is that the rapture and the DAY are tied together! They cannot be separated! His coming triggers the rapture, and the rapture event (the Dead rising) will trigger the opening salvo of the Day of the Lord: the great earthquake at the 6th seal. He comes as a thief (no one knows when) so the rapture and the Day come as a thief also. NO ONE will know the exact hour of the rapture or the following Day of the Lord.

This goes for all people! Yes, the believer will know the season, and will be expecting, but NO ONE will know the hour or the day. The difference comes after the Dead in Christ rise: at that moment in time, two groups of people get two different results: those living In Christ get salvation, and get raptured out, when the ground begins to shake. But those left behind get hit by a world wide earthquake - Paul's Sudden Destruction.

So why then do you write I am "incorrect?" I write what the word teaches.

 

[iamlamad]

Well, I read that the Day of the Lord will not be a surprise to the believer. I read where we are told to look up, for our redemption draws nigh when we see the signs begin to come to pass. I'm not quite sure what you make of those verses, but if its anything other than that then we do disagree and apparently you will be disagreeing with the Word....So you should consider that.

That's ok with me. That's the rapture that occurs at the Day of the Lord. It will be like the days of Lot. That is not the pretribulation rapture that is the early summer harvest when it will be like the days of Noah. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

You are not reading with understanding. What you are missing is that we are not here for the Day of the Lord, or the Day of His wrath. In that very passage Paul tells us WE get raptured, but THEY get wrath. This is not that difficult!

Those living in Christ will not be surprised by the day of the Lord, because we get raptured out before the Day. Plain and simple. So it seems we DO agree.

Sorry, but I don't disagree with the Word! However, I may disagree with your understanding of the word. If you can prove me wrong in what I have written by line upon line of the written word, I will repent and change my belief. I have been wrong before. I think our differences is how we are reading and understanding this passage.

Your last paragraph leaves me wondering what you are reading! Yes, OF COURSE it is the rapture that takes place as Paul has written, a moment before the start of God's wrath which is the Day of the Lord.

That is not the pretribulation rapture

Sorry, but there is only ONE pretrib rapture, and it is found in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. And it comes a moment before the Day begins.

Perhaps your problem is, you don't know where the "trib" is in Revelation. Does 6 come before 7? It always has and always will. The 70th week of Daniel begins at the 7th seal, so Paul's rapture is both pretrib and prewrath.

 

[iamlamad]

The 70th week begins after the Gentiles are raptured pretrib. Then the seals are opened and God turns his attention to Israel. That's what the 70th week is about........Israel. It is the TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE. There is a difference between tribulation and wrath. We can see that in Matt 24. Immediately after the tribulation of those days ....... Then the wrath occurs. So, how can it be a pretribulation rapture if that the tribulation of those days is over before the Son of Man comes?

Now I see where you have gone astray! You don't understand John's chronology! Sorry, my friend, but you need to go back and camp out on Rev. 4 & 5 until you understand God's and John's TIMING. Did you not read how John saw the very moment Jesus ascended into heaven, after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended? WHEN was that? Around 32 AD.

Then John tells us He saw Jesus suddenly appear in the throne room, and that was the moment the Holy Spirit was sent down. Again, around 32 AD. Your problem is, you want to pull the first seals out of this context. You want to ad lib 2000 years in those verses when God did not put it in.

The truth is, seal one is to represent the CHURCH sent out to take the GOSPEL to the world.
Seals 2,3 and 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel, to HOLD IT within that 1/4 of the earth.
Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church. they are told they must WAIT for judgment until the age of grace is finished. We know it is finished at the rapture. This is EXACTLY what both Paul and John show us.

concerning TIMING, you cannot separate the 70th week from God's wrath because they happen concurrently - another place you have gone astray from His Word.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days ....... Then the wrath occurs.

This is MYTH! You cannot find that written word for word. Get this straight! His wrath BEGINS right where John tells us, at the 6th seal. It continues all through the trumpet judgments and then into the vial judgments. His wrath happens while days of great tribulation are happening. They cannot be separated in time, because they are concurrent. Why not just believe John? His word is truth, because it is God's word.

Settle this in your mind: the 6th seal is the BEGINNING of God's wrath and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. It comes BEFORE days of great tribulation that will take place after chapter 14 in Revelation.

 

[iamlamad]

The mistake you are making is believing that the rapture that you see at the 6th seal is the pretribulation rapture. It is not. It is the rapture of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. We can prove that by the 144,000 first fruits. If the 1st fruits are pumpkins, the harvest will be pumpkins. Since the 1st fruits are of the 12 tribes so will the harvest be. We can see this harvest in Rev 14. The remnant will be left in Israel, the rest of the 12 tribes are gone prewrath..........but not pretrib. The Gentiles are gone pretrib.
If you are looking in Revelation to figure out when the pretrib rapture will occur.....its not clearly shown because how could He show you and then tell you he is coming in an hour that you think not. He does show you when a rapture occurs prior to the day of the Lord. But that's not the pretrib rapture.

Sorry, but the mistakes here have been on your side of this argument. And you miss it yet again! The 144,000 do not get caught up until around the midpoint of the week, AFTER the trumpet judgments. Paul did not talk about them.

I KNOW where Paul's rapture is in Revelation because I understand Paul in 1 Thes. 5.

Another mistake: imagining you can rearrange Revelation to fit some man made theory.

Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given Chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Why then form some theory that forces you to rearrange Revelation? If you had God's plan, it fits Revelation just as written - because HE authored it!

 

[Choose Wisely]

When will you ever learn? Go back to chapter 5 and look at the TIMING! Jesus ascended into heaven, the Holy Spirit was sent down, and John got to see that in vision form. Timing? Around 32 AD. The first seal then has the same timing! It is to represent the Church sent out with the Gospel.

If you want to talk about timing then you should consider the 24 elders casting their crowns before the seals are opened.
Rev 4
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, each other time to represent righteousness - yet you imagine, one out of seventeen, he would use it for evil. Of course the Beast would wish to color himself as white, but he did not write this book! Look back and find that God colored the Beast as fiery red.

1st Satan appears as an angel of light. He tries emulate Christ
2nd Historically conquerors rode white horses
3rd Its hard to imagine that the red, black, and pale horses all bring bad news..........but the white horse is a good thing? Very, very doubtful.

Next, these first seals, 2, 3, and 4, align nicely with what Jesus said in His Olivet discourse. Yet the verses that match, Jesus said, "the end is not yet" showing us He was speaking of the church age, not end times.

Jesus tells us he is talking about end times. You just can't decide that He is not talking end times when He says that He is.
Matt 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Finally, I challenge you to find ONE WORD at the first seal that even hints of anything evil. You won't find it, for it is to represent the church.

Rev 6
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The rider on the white horse is carrying a bow. Jesus the Christ carries the sword.
False Christs such as Apollo carry a bow. For instance Apollo is the god of archery.
Additionally no one gives God a crown.

You need to rethink some things. I do commend you for understanding that there is a rapture at the 6th seal and that the 6th seal relates to the coming of Jesus in Matt 24. Most pretrib believers don't tie these together and think that the Matthew 24 coming is the Second Coming when Christ and his armies return on a white horses.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Immediately after the tribulation of those days ....... Then the wrath occurs.

This is MYTH! You cannot find that written word for word. Get this straight! His wrath BEGINS right where John tells us, at the 6th seal. It continues all through the trumpet judgments and then into the vial judgments. His wrath happens while days of great tribulation are happening. They cannot be separated in time, because they are concurrent. Why not just believe John? His word is truth, because it is God's word.

Settle this in your mind: the 6th seal is the BEGINNING of God's wrath and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. It comes BEFORE days of great tribulation that will take place after chapter 14 in Revelation.

Exactly..........THE WRATH BEGINS AT THE 6TH SEAL. The tribulation of that day is over.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

 

[dfw69]

I think you miss-understood. The rapture is a sure thing. written clearly. But the mainstream evangelicals imagine that John being called up to heaven in Rev. 4:1 is where the rapture will take place in Revelation. All I was saying is, that theory is myth. That was JOHN being called up to heaven, and it took place around 95 AD. It has nothing to do with the church being called up.

I place the rapture a moment before the great earthquake at the 6th seal. John did not see the rapture, but saw the church in heaven as the great crowd too large to number right after the 6th seal.

Does not john name mean gods grace or gods favor?....is not the church built on gods grace and gods favor?.. Yah Hannah or John could typify the church rapture before the opening of the first seal...

 

[Choose Wisely]

Sorry, but the mistakes here have been on your side of this argument. And you miss it yet again! The 144,000 do not get caught up until around the midpoint of the week, AFTER the trumpet judgments. Paul did not talk about them.

I KNOW where Paul's rapture is in Revelation because I understand Paul in 1 Thes. 5.

Another mistake: imagining you can rearrange Revelation to fit some man made theory.

Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given Chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Why then form some theory that forces you to rearrange Revelation? If you had God's plan, it fits Revelation just as written - because HE authored it!

Going to be tough to communicate with you if you think that revelation is written in order.

Rev 12
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Here we have Christ being born in Rev 12. That should pose a problem to Revelation being in order.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Here we have a harvest....a rapture...........and there are people taken by the one on the cloud and there are others cast into the wrath of God. Weren't thy in the wrath of God at the 6th seal.
If there is a pretribulation rapture that is also a prewrath rapture.......what is Revelation 14 all about.

 

[Copperhead]

Guess my comment got overlooked for the argument against a pre 1st seal removal of the righteous continuing
To go on here.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Guess my comment got overlooked for the argument against a pre 1st seal removal of the righteous continuing
To go on here.

I think he did not reply because he is overwhelmed right not.

 

[iamlamad]

If you notice, Paul writes to the Thessalonians again and refers back to that passage and expounds upon it in 2 Thessalonians 2.

In the second letter to the Thessalonians, he references how the false messiah will not be revealed until the "He", which many hold is the Holy Spirit, is taken out of the way. For that to happen, the primary task of the HS, to deliver the bride to the Messiah, would have to previously happen. Paul starts chapter 2 outlining this is in regard to our being gathered to the Lord.

Also, Paul gets on the Thessalonians' case in that second letter to them for thinking that they had already entered the time of the great tribulation period because a false letter had been circulating, claiming to be from Paul, that the tribulation had started. Paul reminds them of what he had taught them (that is telling the reader to look back at 1 Thessalonians) how this could not be the case and then expounds how this could not happen until the false messiah be revealed, and that revealing couldn't happen until the HS be taken out of the way. Therefore, there is no way for the first seal (the revealing of the false messiah or "antichrist") to start with the Bride (Church) still being on the earth!!

Long before the reference of the large crowd in Heaven, there is mention of the 24 Elders dressed in white robes and wearing crowns. White robes are given to the righteous believers. Crowns are rewards for faithful service. Why are there 24 Elders? David, back in 1 Chronicles 23, divided the priests into 24 groups, establishing the pattern to follow in the future. The believers are called kings and priests in Revelation 1:6. Peter states that we are a royal priesthood in 1 Peter 2:9. The 24 Elders confirm they are those kings and priests in Revelation 5:10. All of this before the 1st seal is opened. These 24 Elders are the Church before the throne of God.

I would concede that the removal of the righteous before the 1st seal is "theory", as all theological positions can be construed as "theory", but it is based on sound reasoning from scripture and far from being anything that could be considered as mythological.

If you notice, I made no mention of John being caught up as a picture of the Church being removed or "raptured". I don't disagree with that idea, but one can solidly make the case without that assertion.

I guess I missed your post before. I want to comment on one sentence:
Therefore, there is no way for the first seal (the revealing of the false messiah or "antichrist") to start with the Bride (Church) still being on the earth!!

There, my friend, is an error in your thinking. Don't take my word for it: go back and really study chapters 4 & 5 that are the context for the first seal. John gives us TIMING in those two chapters. Notice that John got to see in vision form the very moment Jesus ascended back into heaven after rising from the dead. TIME? 32 AD! Sorry, but there is no 2000 years hidden anywhere there. The first seal then was opened in 32 AD and is NOT referring to the Antichrist. It is the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the world.

Many people see a parallel between the early seals and Matthew 24, and I certainly agree. But Jesus said, concerning those verses, "the end is not yet" meaning, He had not yet begun speaking of "the end times." He was still in the church age in the verses that remind people of the seals.

When you understand John's Chronology, the Holy Spirit had him begin right when he lived, early church or 95 AD, then take the reader quickly through the church age (seals 1-5) and then to the start of judgment: seal 6.

If you really study 1 thes. 5, Paul shows us that his rapture event will come very close and just before the start of the Day of the Lord - which John shows us begins at the 6th seal.

 

[iamlamad]

As I understand it, after the seven church ages a "door is opened in heaven" and the voice says "Come up hither" (Rapture).

It is at this point that Jesus breaks open the scroll and the judgements begin...

Not according to John in chapters 4 - 6!

 

[iamlamad]

Read the first chapter.... John is in exile on the Island of Patmos (Revelation 1:9). That did not happen until well after 32AD and many think it was during the reign of Domition (81-96 AD). Eusibius and many other early Church writers claim that it was during this time that John was on Patmos. Now, do we take the word of the early writers, many of whom either knew John or the disciples of John or someone in the 21st century?

No, take the word of John! It is HIS book we are discussing! Notice in chapter 5 that John saw the moment Jesus ascended. It was a vision of the PAST. First hint: Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father, when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. We have to ask WHY?

Then we have a search for one worthy to break the seals - and NO MAN was found. We have to ask WHY?

Then we have the Holy Spirit there in the throne room in chapter 4 (as the 7 spirits of God) when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended.

finally in chapter 5, Jesus ascends into the throne room, and the Holy Spirit is sent down! We have then several witnesses showing us this was a vision of the past. But the purpose was for the context of the first seals. The context clearly is the same time that Jesus ascended. The moment He arrived, He got the scroll or book and began opening the seals.

The first seal then was opened around 32 AD. NOT the Antichrist, but the CHURCH sent out with the Gospel. Notice the white horse: John used the color white 17 times in Revelation and every other time was to represent righteousness. And you imagine John and the Holy Spirit would use white here one time out of 17 for something evil? Not a chance!

 

[iamlamad]

It will be a secret, in that the world will not see Him. And you're right Satan has an explanation in place.......alien abductions. Did you know in the 1950's there were so many calls about aliens that they had to shut down the switchboards in Washington. The lie is in place and the world will come together under the one............GIVEN.........the stephanos crown.
Rev 6
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

He will be in charge of the United Nations.

Sorry, but John was referring to the CHURCH around 32 AD. You are missing it by a country mile.

 

[iamlamad]

And the fallacy is assuming that the point that YHWH is unleashing wrath upon the earth is after the seals. The events start with the first seal being opened by Yeshua. The implication is that they would not happen until He opened the seals, therefore, it is by His hand that the events are transpiring on the earth. The HS has stepped aside, having delivered the bride (the Church) to the Messiah, and now the Messiah is opening the seals that allow calamity to befall those that remain upon the earth. Setting the stage for punishment to fall upon those who side with Satan and reject Messiah.

None of this is intended for the Bride. Therefore, the HS has removed and delivered the Bride to Messiah before His actions start this chain of events.

You are simply mistaken. You cannot skip over the context of the first seals and hope to have it right.
Do this: use a search engine on a bible software and see the first use of "wrath" in Revelation. Does it make sense that the first use of Wrath just might be where God begins His wrath?
If you imagine seal 1 is His wrath, do you imagine God is angry with the new and infant church? Do you imagine God caused the martyrs or is angry with them for allowing themselves to be put to death?

Not, the truth is, there is no wrath involved with the first seals. Seal one is the church sent out around 32 AD with the Gospel - you know - the great commission.

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel. But God limited these three (Red, Black and Pale) to 1/4 of the earth for their theater of operation. Satan could not hold the Gospel in, and it spread around the world!

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. They are told they must wait a long time for judgment: until the full number of martyrs will have come in and killed as they were - as church age martyrs. In other words, they would have to wait for the pretrib rapture to end the church age!

What comes next? Of course the 6th seal. But Paul's rapture will take place just before that 6th seal is opened. The church age ends, the full number of martyrs will have come in, and judgment begins.

 

[iamlamad]

I think he did not reply because he is overwhelmed right not.

No, spent the day in church! First a Chinese church, then a Burmese church, then Rhema church.

 

[iamlamad]

If you want to talk about timing then you should consider the 24 elders casting their crowns before the seals are opened.
Rev 4
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
They are probably Old Testament saints - perhaps 12 standing in for the New Testament ones to arrive. When Jesus rose, He raised a few of the Old Testament saints. However, no one really knows who they are. John is not specific.

1st Satan appears as an angel of light. He tries emulate Christ
2nd Historically conquerors rode white horses
3rd Its hard to imagine that the red, black, and pale horses all bring bad news..........but the white horse is a good thing? Very, very doubtful.
Satan is not writing this book! It is God's book. Of course the Beast would chose to color himself white! But later God used fiery red!

I think you missed this: The Pale horse:
And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, The red horse rider was given a great sword.
with hunger, The black horse brough famine and hunger
with death The pale horse was named DEATH

There you have it! These three ride together, leaving out rider #1. These three are Satan's doing, but #1 is the church.

Jesus tells us he is talking about end times. You just can't decide that He is not talking end times when He says that He is.
Matt 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Rev 6
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The rider on the white horse is carrying a bow. Jesus the Christ carries the sword.
False Christs such as Apollo carry a bow. For instance Apollo is the god of archery.
Additionally no one gives God a crown.

You need to rethink some things. I do commend you for understanding that there is a rapture at the 6th seal and that the 6th seal relates to the coming of Jesus in Matt 24. Most pretrib believers don't tie these together and think that the Matthew 24 coming is the Second Coming when Christ and his armies return on a white horses.

I cannot believe you missed this!

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

Notice the words: Jesus is NOT talking about the end here, but rather the BEGINNING of sorrows - the church age. Notice the FOR, the AND, the THEN, etc. These tie all these verses to "the end is not yet." Now notice verse 13:

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Jesus finally gets to end times, here. However, it is VERY brief, and then jumps over the first half of the week and begins at the abomination that divides the week.

All this fits perfectly with Revelation, as the first 5 seals being church age.

The rider on the white horse does carry a bow, and a real weapon bow. (In Greek, "toxin from the poison used on arrows). The church DOES have weapons, but they are not physical - they are spiritual. And FOR SURE the church had to conquer spiritual battles when ever the gospel was advanced. They were fierce and believers died.

It is NOT GOD, it is the CHURCH, and believers DO get crowns. You see, when your mind is made up, even with error, you don't read clearly!

the 6th seal relates to the coming of Jesus in Matt 24.
WRONG AGAIN! Jesus coming as shown in Matthew 24 - after the days of GT - is His coming as shown in Rev. 19.

His coming as shown in 1 thes. 4 will be after the 5th seal, but before His wrath at the 6th seal.

Most pretrib believers don't tie these together and think that the Matthew 24 coming is the Second Coming when Christ and his armies return on a white horses.
IT HIS His coming on white horses! It is His coming as shown in Rev. 19. I must say, you really have some strange theories. Jesus was very clear: His coming in Matthew 24 is AFTER the days of GT. In Revelation that would be AFTER chapter 15 and during chapters 15 and part of 16. And John fits with Matthew, showing His coming in chapter 19 after the week and ended and after the marriage and supper in heaven.

What do you call yourself - prewrath?