Take The Tiktaalik Challenge

[Oncedeceived]

Those comment were directed at eternal dragon.

Yes, caught that too late and went back and edited to say I made a mistake. sorry

 

[HitchSlap]

I am familiar with convergent evolution. Please explain to me what you are claiming with the Tiktaalik fossils. I am getting confused to the claims being made here. I am serious and not trying to confuse the issue.

As a theory, evolution can be used to make predictions. Neil Shubin predicted a 375 million transitional fossil of a "fishapod" should be found in rock dating that old, since this is when it is believed tetrapods began to evolve. There were only a handful of sites with exposed rock old enough to provide dig sites. Based on previous fossils, he chose Ellesmere Island, and after three(?) seperate excavations there, found six fossil "fishapods."

This is a perfect example of a scientific theory in action. Or, he just threw a dart at the map and decided to dig there and got lucky.

 

[HitchSlap]

Yes, caught that too late and went back and edited to say I made a mistake. sorry

No worries.

 

[Oncedeceived]

As a theory, evolution can be used to make predictions. Neil Shubin predicted a 375 million transitional fossil of a "fishapod" should be found in rock dating that old, since this is when it is believed tetrapods began to evolve. There were only a handful of sites with exposed rock old enough to provide dig sites. Based on previous fossils, he chose Ellesmere Island, and after three(?) seperate excavations there, found six fossil "fishapods."

This is a perfect example of a scientific theory in action. Or, he just threw a dart at the map and decided to dig there and got lucky.

I see, so it was a prediction to find the transitional. So score on the find. You said they found six fossil fishapods. Can you give me a link for that? I didn't find that in my archives.

 

[HitchSlap]

I see, so it was a prediction to find the transitional. So score on the find. You said they found six fossil fishapods. Can you give me a link for that? I didn't find that in my archives.

Check Wiki. It's in his book as well. (great book BTW!)

It's three, not six.

 

[Split Rock]

If I know where other people have found T-Rex fossils, I will go to similar spots to find one. It's no mystery or a prediction.

Same with gold. If I want to find some gold I will go to Sutters Mill, California. Not central Ohio. (Interestingly back then some of the gold could be found just lying on the ground.)

Why are they found in certain strata and not in all the others?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Check Wiki. It's in his book as well. (great book BTW!)

It's three, not six.

You said: Based on previous fossils, he chose Ellesmere Island, and after three(?) seperate excavations there, found six fossil "fishapods."

I assume you misspoke and found it was three?

 

[AV1611VET]

Did Neil Shubin effectively use ToE to find Tiktaalik roseae, or was he just lucky?

He probably heard stories of "fishapods" from the Inuits, and went and investigated.

Finding them, he did what any modern scientist would do -- took the credit for discovering them by way of evolutionary prediction.

 

[Split Rock]

How does one account for tetrapod trackways in beach sediments that predate even Tiktaalik by 10 million years?

Four feet in the past: trackways pre-date earliest body fossils

The discovery of fossil trackways made by four-legged land vertebrates (tetrapods) almost 400 million years ago will cause a significant reappraisal of our understanding of tetrapod origins. The finds, reported by Per Ahlberg and colleagues, come from Zachelmie Quarry in the Holy Cross Mountains of Poland. Some of the tracks are so well preserved as to permit detailed examination of the foot morphology, which resembles that of the early, primitive tetrapod Ichthyostega. But it is their age that makes these tracks so special: 18 million years older than the earliest known tetrapod body fossils, and 10 million years older than the oldest elpistostegids — Tiktaalik , Panderichthys and their relatives, seen as transitional forms between fishes and tetrapods. The finds suggests that the elpistostegids that we know were late-surviving relics rather than direct transitional forms, and they highlight just how little we know of the earliest history of land vertebrates.


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7277/edsumm/e100107-01.html

It may well be that fishapods had an extended prosperous time in history, much like mammal-like reptiles did.

 

[Split Rock]

He probably heard stories of "fishapods" from the Inuits, and went and investigated.

Finding them, he did what any modern scientist would do -- took the credit for discovering them by way of evolutionary prediction.

Now you're just making stuff up. That isn't what happened. Read Your Inner Fish.

 

[AV1611VET]

Read Your Inner Fish.

What's Your Inner Fish?

That sounds like something Hackel would have written; or some New Ager.

 

[Loudmouth]

Did you read what I posted?

Yes, it says that Tiktaalik is not in the direct line of descent. We are claiming that Tiktaalik is a transitional, not a direct ancestor. Do you understand the difference?

"In looking for the gradations by which an organ in any species has been perfected, we ought to look exclusively to its lineal ancestors; but this is scarcely ever possible, and we are forced in each case to look to species of the same group, that is to the collateral descendants from the same original parent-form, in order to see what gradations are possible, and for the chance of some gradations having been transmitted from the earlier stages of descent, in an unaltered or little altered condition."--Charles Darwin, "Origin of Species"

 

[Loudmouth]

He probably heard stories of "fishapods" from the Inuits, and went and investigated.

Finding them, he did what any modern scientist would do -- took the credit for discovering them by way of evolutionary prediction.

You are making up stories, as usual.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, it says that Tiktaalik is not in the direct line of descent. We are claiming that Tiktaalik is a transitional, not a direct ancestor. Do you understand the difference?

Are you guys saying that ... in that picture we always see, showing a fish crawling out of the water to become an ape to become a man ... that Tiktaalik is the one crawling out of the water?

In other words, Tiktaalik is a transitional between a fish and an amphibian?

 

[AV1611VET]

You are making up stories, as usual.

Perhaps then you would care to explain to us the role the Innuits played in Tiktaalik getting its name?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yes, it says that Tiktaalik is not in the direct line of descent. We are claiming that Tiktaalik is a transitional, not a direct ancestor. Do you understand the difference?

Yes, and I understand that it is assumed that it is a relic. However, how do we determine that? When it first was found it was claimed to be the missing link. Then it was a transitional that fit right in the middle where it should and then it comes down as a relic. All this shifting cause one to conclude that we don't know exactly where it sits until something falsifies the first claim, then the next and then the next. I imagine you can understand how that might look?

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, and I understand that it is assumed that it is a relic. However, how do we determine that? When it first was found it was claimed to be the missing link. Then it was a transitional that fit right in the middle where it should and then it comes down as a relic. All this shifting cause one to conclude that we don't know exactly where it sits until something falsifies the first claim, then the next and then the next. I imagine you can understand how that might look?

They have six different models as to how we got our moon.

Labeling Tiktaalik six different ways is ... well ... scientific.

 

[HitchSlap]

You said: Based on previous fossils, he chose Ellesmere Island, and after three(?) seperate excavations there, found six fossil "fishapods."

I assume you misspoke and found it was three?

Correct.

 

[HitchSlap]

Perhaps then you would care to explain to us the role the Innuits played in Tiktaalik getting its name?

Out of respect for the indigenous peoples of Ellesmere Island, Shubin let the tribal council name Tiktaalik. Roseae is after his daughter.

 

[HitchSlap]

They have six different models as to how we got our moon.

Labeling Tiktaalik six different ways is ... well ... scientific.

Not labeled six different ways, but three separate fossils.