Women in Leadership

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superdave

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It's not a secret that most Charismatic Churches have women in leadership. I am not against this- because I know God has no distinction between the sexes. What to do when people like in the Church of Christ come at you like, "You guys are going to hell-because women are in leadership?" I have yet to find an explination to tell them. Just that as long as they are under there husbands and under the Leadership of the Church they are fine. But it always seems to come back... I don't know... they have bible verses to back up there stance- but they also don't read the real translation in Greek. Which... my dad explained to me at one time. But... it just doesn't seem to soak into them.
 

SpiritPsalmist

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I'm a woman in ministry and there are many scriptures that I use to back it up. Most of the time they don't listen anyway, so after my initial response with all the scriptures I just don't argue with these people anymore.

I do however say, "well, I don't want to go to hell. . .so if you would please pray for me that God will show me as I'm reading the scripture for myself that I am wrong then I will accept it. And also pray that if you're wrong He'll reveal it to you as you read the scripture."

That usually stumps them. And, if you don't know the scripture refs. I can send you a whole bunch. Just let me know. :)
 
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imasharp

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In the Great commission, it says to go out unto all the world and preach and teach the Gospel. It doesn't specify gender. My husband's family are all Church of Christ. They think we are wild because we go to an Assembly of God church, but yet they can send some of the grand kids to our christian school. I would probably just ask for their prayers and tell them that I will pray for them also.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Hollypop said:
Quaffer i would like the scriptures...

Here ya go

Matt 28:1-10, Luke 24:9-11, John 20:16-18 The two Mary's at the tomb were told to run and "tell" the disciples that "He is Risen".

John 4:28-30, 39 The woman at the well ran through the town and brought them all to Jesus. V39 "Now numerous Samaritans from theat town believed in and trusted in Him because of what the woman said".

Acts 2:14-21, Joel 2:28-32 V17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, God declares, that I will pour out My Spirit upon all mankind, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy [telling forth the divine counsels].

1 Cor 14:3, 4 "the one who prohesies [who interprets the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching] speaks to men for thier upbuilding.V4 edifies and improves the church.

Acts 21:8, 9 Philip had 4 daughters who all had the gift of prophesy.

Rom 16:1, 2 Paul ws sending this letter via "our sister Phoebe, a deconess of the church at Cenchreae." He instructed them to receive her as saints ought to receive one another. He told them to help her in whatever way she needed. Several other women are listed in that chapter as helpers who worked alongside Paul in the furtherence of the Gospel. V3 Pricilla. V6 Mary. V 12 Tryphaena, Tryphosa, and Persis. V13 Rufus' mother, Paul said she was like a mother to him. V15 Julia and Nereus' sister.

Phil 4:2, 3, Euodia and Syntyche toild along with Paul in the spreading of the Good News.

1 Cor 1:11 "those of Chloes household"

1 Cor 11:4, 5 We see that "any women who [publicly] prayed or prophesied (teaches, refutes, reproves, admonisher, or comforts)". It's obvious that women were allowed to preach.

1 Cor 12 Paul says each of us have differing gifts. He does not seperate women's gifts from mens. V11 God gives to "each person as God wishes".

Col 4:15 Nympha had a church which met in her house.

2 Timothy 3:8-12 is giving the list of qualities for a deacon. V11 "the women likewise".

The Old Testament has a list of women also, Ex 15:20 Miriam prophesied before ALL the people.

Judges 4:4 Deborah, a prophetess, a wife, and a JUDGE of Israel.

2 Kings 22:14 and 2 Chron 34:22 Huldah, a prophetess and a wife. Hilkiah, the High Priest and several other men went to her for a word from God.

Nehemiah 6:14 Tobiah, a prophetess

Isaiah 8:3 Isaiahs wife was a prophetess.

Luke 1:39-56 Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist prophesied.

Luke 2:36 Anna, a prophetess in the temple enclosure.
 
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superdave

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wow thanks Quaffer... :) I didn't realize there was that much in the bible.

Yeah God bless the Church of Christ- but man, they are really legalistic. And I always argued with my ex girlfriend up and down about religion. Because she was Church of Christ- and of course, I was Charismatic. Finally... it got so bad we just called it quits.
 
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The Midge

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In the great commision (Mat 24: 19) Jesus told his followers to go and "make disciples of all nations ."

First disciples were people who lived with their teacher and learned to do everything that they did. Secondly as far as I am aware in excess of 50% of my nation are women. Jesus did not command us to make disciples of less than half of the people in all nations did he?
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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SUNSTONE said:
I Am Outraged! You Ladys Need To Keep Your Traps Shut! :p

It's a good thing for you I know you're kidding. . .'cause I know where your church is AND where you work. . .I'd be huntin' you down.
jab.gif
:D
 
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SUNSTONE

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Quaffer said:
It's a good thing for you I know you're kidding. . .'cause I know where your church is AND where you work. . .I'd be huntin' you down.
jab.gif
:D

Hey its not fair, you have all of the good smileys. :cry:
I am stuck with the same old smileys. :sigh:

Well we can argue about it in church...... oh wait your not allowed to talk in church! :D
 
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SUNSTONE

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Blade said:
You know I have never met any one that said a woman should not up there or preaching. Maybe to help those who question this should just be told 'well God could not find a man to do the job so he found somone who would do the it, her.'

I have never met anyone like that before. Apparently there are a number of them.

Its just the word totally taken out of context.People look to closely at one sentence, and don't study all the other sentences around it.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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SUNSTONE said:
Hey its not fair, you have all of the good smileys. :cry:
I am stuck with the same old smileys. :sigh:

Well we can argue about it in church...... oh wait your not allowed to talk in church! :D


You can have them too. They are in here: http://anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/

Enjoy,

jump.gif
 
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BigToe

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a lot of the people who think women shouldnt be leaders look at a passage where women are being told not to shout across the room for their husbands to explain what they dont understand...

now on a different note, not all Churches of Christ are the same. I went to a more liberal one that did have a female in a leadership role. (I only went because its the one that was on campus at Pepperdine....). Anyway, in my speech class that I took my freshman year there I did one on why women should be able to be leaders. And going with the verses here, and expounding on some... In the book of John, Jesus first revealed his Christhood to a woman. So obviously we are somewhat worthy to go and spread the news to others. hehe.

There are numerous other passages in the Bible where a husband and wife are mentioned as leading others to the truth in some way. Now, the order of names was very very important and in several cases the wife's name is listed first, implying her role was somehow greater or more important...

As you can see, I think women should lead as much as they want. God calls all sorts of people to serve him. Why on earth would he call a female to be a leader if he wouldn't ever approve of that?
 
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TheScottsMen

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Should Women Be Pastors and Elders?

In a social climate of complete equality in all things, the biblical teaching of only allowing men to be pastors and elders is not popular. Many feminist organizations denounce this position as antiquated and chauvinistic. In addition, many Christian churches have adopted the social standard and allowed women pastors and elders in the church. But the question remains, is this biblical?
My answer to this question is, "No, women are not to be pastors and elders." Many may not like that answer, but it is, I believe, an accurate representation of the biblical standard. You make the decision after reading this paper.

First of all, I believe that women are, for the most part, under-appreciated and under-utilized in the church. I also believe that there are many gifted women who might very well do a better job at preaching and teaching than many men. However, it isn't gifting that is the issue, but God's order and calling. What does the Bible say? We cannot come to God's word with a social agenda and make it fit our wants. Rather, we must change and adapt to what it says.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve. He put Adam in the garden and gave him the authority to name all the animals. Afterwards, God made Eve as a helper to Adam.(1) This is an important concept because Paul refers to the order of creation in his epistle to Timothy when he discusses the relationship between men and women in the church. Let's take a look.
"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression" (1 Tim. 2:12-14 -- all quotes from the Bible are from the NASB). This passage has several interesting areas of discussion, but for our purpose we will focus on authority. At the very least, there is an authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man in the church context. But this does not extend to the political/economic world. In the Old Testament Deborah was a judge in Israel over men. Also, in the New Testament, Phoebe played an important role in the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16). There is no doubt that women supported Paul in many areas and were great helpers in the church (Act 2:17; 18:24; 21:8). But what Paul is speaking of in 1 Tim. 2 is the relationship between men and women in the church, not in a social or political context.
When we look further at Paul's teachings we see that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Tim. 3:2) who manages his household well and has a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:4-5, 7). Deacons must be "men of dignity"(1 Tim. 3:8). Paul then speaks of women in verse 11 and their obligation to receive instruction. Then in verse 12, Paul says "Let deacons be husbands of one wife..." Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'.
In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male. He is the husband of one wife, responsible, able to "exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be "dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Tim. 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God (Gen. 1-2; 1 Tim. 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel.
Additionally, in the Old Testament in over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male. There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women.
Therefore, from what I see in Genesis 1-2, 1 Timothy 2, and Titus 1, the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man.

What About Galatians 3:28?

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28).
This verse is often used to support the idea that women can hold the offices of elder and pastor because there is neither male nor female in Christ. The argument states that if we are all equal, then women can be pastors.
Unfortunately, those who use this verse this way have failed to read the context. Verse 23 talks about being under the Law "before faith came" and how we are brought closer to Jesus and have become sons of God by faith. We are no longer under law, but grace and we are "Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise" (v. 29).(2) The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God's grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn't matter who you are, Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way, by grace. In that, there is neither male nor female.
This verse is not talking about church structure. It is talking about salvation "in Christ." It cannot be used to support women as pastors because that isn't what it is talking about. Instead, to find out about church structure and leadership, you need to go to those passages that talk about it: 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 1.

Being a Pastor or Elder is to be in Authority

God is a God of order and balance. He has established order within the family (Gen. 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:22-33; Col. 3:18-21 ) and the church (1 Tim. 2:11-14; 1 Cor. 11:8-9). Even within the Trinity there is an order, a hierarchy. The Father sent the Son (John 6:38) and both the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38). It is clear that God is a God of order and structure.
In creation, God made Adam first and then Eve to be his helper. This is the order of creation. It is this order that Paul mentions in 1 Tim. 2:11-14 when speaking of authority. Being a pastor or an elder is to be in the place of authority. Therefore, within the church, for a woman to be a pastor or elder, she would be in authority of men in the church which contradicts what Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:11-14.

But Doesn't This Teaching Belittle Women?

No, male leadership does not belittle women. Jesus was given his authority by God the Father (Matt. 28:18). He was sent by God (John 6:38). He said the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). Did this belittle Jesus? Of course not. Women are of great value in the church and need to be used more and more according to the gifts given them.
Does the wife's submission to the husband mean that she is less than the husband, less important, or belittled? Again, not at all. Not having a place of leadership in the church does not mean a woman is less of a person, less important to God, or inferior. All are equal before God whether it be Jew, Gentile, free, slave, male, or female. But in the church, God has set up an order the same way he set one up in the family. The chain of command is Jesus, the man, the wife, and the children.

What About Women Who Say They are Called By God to Be Pastors?

There are women pastors in the world who love their congregations and have stated that they are called by God to be pastors. Of course, I cannot agree with this considering the previous analysis of the biblical position. Instead, I believe they have usurped the position of men and gone against the norm of scriptural revelation. Additionally, those who state that they are called by God because of the great job they are doing and the gifting they have received are basing their theology upon experience and not scripture.
The issue is simple: are they submitting to the word of God or are they making the word of God submit to their desires?

What About a Missionary Woman Who Establishes a Church?

Scripture establishes the norm. As Christians we apply what we learn from the word, to the situations at hand. So, what about the situation where a woman missionary has converted a group of people, say in the jungle somewhere, and she has established a church? In that church, she is then functioning as a pastor and teacher having authority over men in the church. Should she not do this?
First of all, she should not be out there alone. She should be with her husband or, at the very least, under the oversight of a church body in the presence of other women and men. Missionary work is not a lone endeavor to be handled by single women.
Second, if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, it is far more important that the word of God be preached and the gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the gospel be spoken. However, I would say that as soon as there is/are males mature enough to handle eldership, that she should then establish the proper order of the church as revealed in scripture and thereby, show her submission to it.

_______________________

1. An important note here is that the Holy Spirit is also called the Helper and is no less God than Jesus and the Father.
2. The Promise is God's promise to Abraham to bless all the nations in Him (Gen. 12:3; Gal. 3:8).


(taken from http://www.carm.org)
 
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Andrew

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I'm all for women preachers, deconesses, cell leaders etc but I wont be quite comfy with women Pastors in charge of a church. I havent figured out this topic yet but for the time being, how is this verse:

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression" (1 Tim. 2:12-14 -- all quotes from the Bible are from the NASB).

supposed to be interepreted then, by those who support women in leadership?
 
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Heinrich

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My father (his a minister) gave me a very good answer to this..

1. In the beginning god made Eve to be Adams equal.
2. Then sin came and the balance was missing. Women was to serve under men.
3. Then Jesus came and died on the +
This restored the balance.
One reason: Women was the first to testify that he rose again... remember that in that time a women testifying meant nothing in court.

We've gone 2000 years and we still haven't completely understand this.
There is traces in paul's letters that the balance started to restore.
Like he said "Women you must be loyel to you husbands" (my own words)
This was normal for that time.
But then he continues and says:
"Men you must love your wifes" (own words again)
This wasn't normal for that time.

It's so sad that 2000 years later we are still in the mud. :-(
And if you really go in to these people saying these things against women you get basicly 3 reasons:
1. No reason at all
2. There parents told them so. (well there dad atleast)
3. The are scared.
 
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