Why did Jesus Leave?

[devolved]

I think it's a valid question from a position of any given skeptic.

I really don't buy the oversimplified answers like "If he didn't leave then Holy Spirit wouldn't come", Or "He left because the mission to spread the Gospel had to be fulfilled", or to "Prepare a place", again neither make a lot of sense in a scope what Christianity is and what it expects.

The question is whether this world is better if Jesus is there for all to be able to experience apart from some "feeling" or a book narrative? It wouldn't make Christianity to be so doubtable. Every Thomas out there could visit a 2000 year old dude with holes in his hands and believe.

Why leave without a trace, and except leave the world with a story and a promise of hope.

It seems like a good excuse to mask the reason as to why Jesus is not here. "Well, he was here, but you've missed him by about 2000 years, BUT he's coming back soon... so just wait and read this book about him".

Perhaps there are other reasonable explanations, but what would these be? What do you think?

 

[Albion]

Since you ask, I think that his purpose was to redeem mankind and triumph over death--and, of course, to make that known. For him to have lived forever on Earth would IMHO diminish those messages or accomplishments.

 

[devolved]

Since you ask, I think that his purpose was to redeem mankind and triumph over death--and, of course, to make that known. For him to have lived forever on Earth would IMHO diminish those messages or accomplishments.

Forever isn't really the context here. Long-enough where humanity developed things like video cameras and scientific method, which would provide enough providential context to actually make things KNOWN.

It would be more than a story, especially if Jesus cared to reveal things like the fact that diseases are caused by tiny organisms and we should boil water and milk. Or that mental illness isn't caused by demons. Of that every time we sneeze we are not losing a bit of our soul. You know, that would be a good and productive start.

We'd actually have reasons to believe that it wasn't just a story of that culture that didn't really reveal anything new or something that stood out from the surrounding contemporary cultures and understanding.

 

[devolved]

diminish those messages or accomplishments.

You don't think that leaving without a trace and only with a story for people to tell doesn't diminish the message or accomplishments in minds of people?

 

[Albion]

You don't think that leaving without a trace and only with a story for people to tell doesn't diminish the message or accomplishments in minds of people?

That's right.

 

[devolved]

That's right.

What would you accept as a better evidence that there is a person who can jump over 10 foot wall without touching it:

1) A story about the guy
2) A video of the guy doing it
3) A guy doing it right in front of you

Sure, if the guy really did it, then it doesn't diminish his accomplishment. But the question was whether it would diminish it in the minds of people.

So, what would you consider to be a better evidence of someone's abilities or achievement... #1 #2 or #3?

 

[Hieronymus]

I think it's a valid question from a position of any given skeptic.

I really don't buy the oversimplified answers like "If he didn't leave then Holy Spirit wouldn't come", Or "He left because the mission to spread the Gospel had to be fulfilled", or to "Prepare a place", again neither make a lot of sense in a scope what Christianity is and what it expects.

The question is whether this world is better if Jesus is there for all to be able to experience apart from some "feeling" or a book narrative? It wouldn't make Christianity to be so doubtable. Every Thomas out there could visit a 2000 year old dude with holes in his hands and believe.

Why leave without a trace, and except leave the world with a story and a promise of hope.

It seems like a good excuse to mask the reason as to why Jesus is not here. "Well, he was here, but you've missed him by about 2000 years, BUT he's coming back soon... so just wait and read this book about him".

Perhaps there are other reasonable explanations, but what would these be? What do you think?

So that the world population will grow and bring forth believers.
..along with unbelievers obviously...

 

[devolved]

So that the world population will grow and bring forth believers.
..along with unbelievers obviously...

Ok, but population could grow without him leaving. In fact, if he revealed some basic medical knowledge we know today, then population would grow much faster. Likewise, if belief through revelation is the point... why make it more difficult to believe?

 

[Albion]

Devolved,

You asked what I thought and I told you. All the postulating that you're doing now in order to get a different answer isn't going to change anything for me. I'll just say that you should reflect upon the fact that how some great undertaking wraps up makes a lot of difference in the impact it has on society or on onlookers or followers.

To use a wretchedly inappropriate comparison, if Elvis or Lincoln had lived until they were doddering 90 year olds, how different would you think their places in history would be? No different? As they say, sometimes people miss their 15 minutes of fame, meaning that they didn't strike when the moment was right, or it's sometimes said that they stayed "too long at the fair." Think about it.

 

[Hieronymus]

Ok, but population could grow without him leaving.

But then it wouldn't be a matter of faith.

In fact, if he revealed some basic medical knowledge we know today, then population would grow much faster.

Even faster? :o

Likewise, if belief through revelation is the point... why make it more difficult to believe?

It's not about belief through revelation, it's about belief without having seen.

 

[devolved]

You asked what I thought and I told you. All the postulating that you're doing now in order to get a different answer isn't going to change anything for me. I'll just say that you should reflect upon the fact that how some great undertaking wraps up makes a lot of difference in the impact it has on society or on onlookers or etc. To use a wretchedly inappropriate comparison, if Elvis or Lincoln had lived until they were doddering 90 year olds, how different would you think their places in history would be? No different? As they say, sometimes people miss their 15 minutes of fame or else they stay "too long at the fair." Think about it.

But that's not even in the same realm of analogy. Neither Elvis or Lincoln are Gods that claimed supernatural ability that we have to believe to get to heaven and make everything around us better.

Your answer to my question was antithetical to any logical reason, and I simply pointed out. You said that it would diminish his achievement if he stayed, but there's no valid reason as to why such achievement would be diminished. Quite the opposite. It would make it obvious to every person alive. They wouldn't have to second guess, they could see it for themselves, or have better documentation than a story. Christianity would be a 1000 times more believable.

So, the best answer you can give me is the opposite of that fact... you are saying that it would diminish the achievement and make it less believable?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Ok, but population could grow without him leaving. In fact, if he revealed some basic medical knowledge we know today, then population would grow much faster. Likewise, if belief through revelation is the point... why make it more difficult to believe?

Who said it is difficult to believe? A little child can believe, have faith, and live with Jesus as the Savior and the Master of their life.
True, adults have a much harder time - things they'd rather have and all.....

Under your faith it just says "seeker". Is that right ?
Are you seeking Truth, Life, or something else ?

 

[devolved]

But then it wouldn't be a matter of faith.

Why? What's so virtuous about faith? Why is faith important?

It's not about belief through revelation, it's about belief without having seen.

Again, why is the belief without seeing more important than belief with seeing? We don't apply that idea to virtually anything we do in our lives.

 

[Albion]

But that's not even in the same realm of analogy. Neither Elvis or Lincoln are Gods that claimed supernatural ability

That's why I called it "wretchedly inappropriate." But I was trying to get across a point, which is that timing is important when it comes to the impact of any great undertaking. This concept seems to escape you, unfortunately.

 

[stevenfrancis]

I think it's a valid question from a position of any given skeptic.

I really don't buy the oversimplified answers like "If he didn't leave then Holy Spirit wouldn't come", Or "He left because the mission to spread the Gospel had to be fulfilled", or to "Prepare a place", again neither make a lot of sense in a scope what Christianity is and what it expects.

The question is whether this world is better if Jesus is there for all to be able to experience apart from some "feeling" or a book narrative? It wouldn't make Christianity to be so doubtable. Every Thomas out there could visit a 2000 year old dude with holes in his hands and believe.

Why leave without a trace, and except leave the world with a story and a promise of hope.

It seems like a good excuse to mask the reason as to why Jesus is not here. "Well, he was here, but you've missed him by about 2000 years, BUT he's coming back soon... so just wait and read this book about him".

Perhaps there are other reasonable explanations, but what would these be? What do you think?

Well, of course He didn't leave, in that He is among us always. I know that you mean bodily, but He didn't even leave us bodily as He comes to us bodily in the Holy Eucharist, which is being celebrated and consecrated somewhere in the world at all times since the Ascension. He is with us in the Priesthood, (in persona Christi) in the distribution of all of the sacraments. His mystical body lives as the Christian church.

It's honestly a shame that you dismiss the sending of the Holy Spirit as a toss off, since this is the modus of God through which Christ is made present at all times until He returns. It is an important and actually rather deep theological point which is at the core of our existence until His return. It's not a cop out. Don't know what to say to convince someone otherwise. You know the saying, for those who believe, no explanation is necessary, and for the non-believer who has not yet accepted the grace of Christ in faith, no explanation will suffice.

Anyway, the point is, that Jesus IS in fact here for all persons to partake of and be guided by, but the faith in that is a grace of God. This grace of faith itself is also available to anyone through prayer, and repentance.
We throw up blocks to the grace of faith when we indulge in idolatry. Even the idolatry of our own pre-transformed terrestial life itself, rather than just adopting a world view of stewardship of something that is God's, as all things are God's. Including our own individual lives.

 

[devolved]

But I was trying to get across a point, which is that timing is important.

Timing of what? The departure? I'm asking why... not when though.

 

[Chriliman]

What would you accept as a better evidence that there is a person who can jump over 10 foot wall without touching it:

1) A story about the guy
2) A video of the guy doing it
3) A guy doing it right in front of you

Sure, if the guy really did it, then it doesn't diminish his accomplishment. But the question was whether it would diminish it in the minds of people.

So, what would you consider to be a better evidence of someone's abilities or achievement... #1 #2 or #3?

The reason Jesus' physical body is no longer visible is because he now changes people from within themselves, this is even better than seeing him with our eyes. When Jesus changes a person, it's a complete renewal of their being that they can feel from within. This is far more effective because we can know Jesus in a more intimate way than if he was a physical person who was right in front of us.

Think about it, if we could actually see Jesus' physical body today, alive and well, many would still doubt that he is who he says he is, but the Spirit of Jesus actually transforms each individual from within themselves, this is something that goes deeper than mere fleshy perceptions.

 

[devolved]

Well, of course He didn't leave, in that He is among us always. I know that you mean bodily, but He didn't even leave us bodily as He comes to us bodily in the Holy Eucharist, which is being celebrated and consecrated somewhere in the world at all times since the Ascension. He is with us in the Priesthood, (in persona Christi) in the distribution of all of the sacraments. His mystical body lives as the Christian church.

Again, that seems a bit contrived though, don't you think... if you do have a skeptical mind. It's like Harold Camping predicting the end of the world and then say "The world did end, but it was spiritual ending".

If there's no visible difference, then saying that something is "spiritual" seem like a contrived idea. Perhaps you may disagree.

I don't want to offend your belief, but there doesn't seem anything substantially different past transubstantiation. It's still the same substance. You merely think of it as different. I personally would have to pretend that it's different... so how do I know you and everyone else aren't pretending?

It's honestly a shame that you dismiss the sending of the Holy Spirit as a toss off, since this is the modus of God through which Christ is made present at all times until He returns. It is an important and actually rather deep theological point which is at the core of our existence until His return. It's not a cop out. Don't know what to say to convince someone otherwise. You know the saying, for those who believe, no explanation is necessary, and for the non-believer who has not yet accepted the grace of Christ in faith, no explanation will suffice.

Well, I do have a degree in theology, BUT the problem is that there isn't a coherent way in which Holy Spirit is ever explained as far as our dynamics. There's no clear way to differentiate between people's thoughts and actions and the Holy Spirit inspired ones... other than a claim and things like "all good things are Holy Spirit inspired" type of "no true Scotsman" application.

Anyway, the point is, that Jesus IS in fact here for all persons to partake of and be guided by, but the faith in that is a grace of God. This grace of faith itself is also available to anyone through prayer, and repentance.
We throw up blocks to the grace of faith when we indulge in idolatry. Even the idolatry of our own pre-transformed terrestial life itself, rather than just adopting a world view of stewardship of something that is God's, as all things are God's. Including our own individual lives.

But my question is precisely about faith. Why would faith be considered a virtue, when in every other aspect of our lives we consider it a sign of stupidity and gullibility?

Why faith?

 

[tatteredsoul]

I think it's a valid question from a position of any given skeptic.

I really don't buy the oversimplified answers like "If he didn't leave then Holy Spirit wouldn't come", Or "He left because the mission to spread the Gospel had to be fulfilled", or to "Prepare a place", again neither make a lot of sense in a scope what Christianity is and what it expects.

The question is whether this world is better if Jesus is there for all to be able to experience apart from some "feeling" or a book narrative? It wouldn't make Christianity to be so doubtable. Every Thomas out there could visit a 2000 year old dude with holes in his hands and believe.

Why leave without a trace, and except leave the world with a story and a promise of hope.

It seems like a good excuse to mask the reason as to why Jesus is not here. "Well, he was here, but you've missed him by about 2000 years, BUT he's coming back soon... so just wait and read this book about him".

Perhaps there are other reasonable explanations, but what would these be? What do you think?

He didn't leave without a trace, but I get what you mean.

Let's look at what His purpose was, and basically who He is.

1. He is the Word of God. Anytime someone has spoken to God, seen God, or was moved by God's voice was interacting with Christ - the literal living Word of God. As He said, if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father. And, recall that no man has seen God the Father and lived. They saw Christ - especially in His "white raiment" of light (transfigured/in His glory.)

2. The patriarchs and prophets knew this about Christ. They also knew He would choose to become human to redeem us. This was reconciled easily with them.

3. His mission as a human on this planet was to defeat sin, and death - something Adam failed to do for all of us. Christ did that - and while it would have been wonderful for Him to stay with us forever, He still has a job to do.

3a) Christ still remains at the right hand of God until all of His enemies are made His footstool.
3b) Christ and God sent the Holy Spirit to comfort us while He is gone, and His enemies are made His footstool
3c) Christ, first, is still the Son of God, and the Word of God. He has work to do (all things were created by Him...)
3d) If Christ stayed (especially like His disciples wanted,) then the fulfillment of 3:15 wouldn't be complete. The enemy must fully drive to apostate and evil and manifest all of its imaginations (allowable) so that Christ can completely and utterly raze the evil. That means He allows the "downtime" of the ignorant evil entities continue to try to compete as if they have a chance of winning, when they have already lost. It is a further of shame that will be brought to the enemy - to know they labored for nothing, and truly lost.

4. Christ promised to come back to rule - as He will. And, so it will be (actually, so it is.)

5. Christ has the right to approach the throne of God, to transsubstantiate into human, or to be Himself - the endowment of everything God has given to Him.

6. We humans have to show what we learned, what we believe, if we have faith, and how we will live given everything that has happened, and everything He has done - so that we all can be judged justly.

7. Firstfruits will be borne from the ashes of the Enemies attempting to destroy the entirety of creation - like impure gold burned to rid it of impurities. These "firstfruits" will be partakers and "partners" in the ministry of Christ, the stand against the evil (one,) and witnesses to all of this - including the eventual return of Christ.

8. In all honesty, it wouldn't matter if the Word of God Himself was right in front of people's faces and showed them His holes in His hands... it barely worked for Thomas. So, Christ likely knows appearances by Him will not affect the overall faith (or, at least it shouldnt.) The disciples of Christ were around Him almost 24/7, and they still had to hear it from Him who He was. And, these were people chosen by Him.

9. Christ is "in contact" with His people. They know Him.

10. We do not have (close to) any of our priorities straight concerning our spiritual relationship with God.


Just think about how the patriarchs felt hearing the fresh prophecies of Christ, not being able to perceive Him themselves, and, they didn't have a holy spirit to comfort them. Yet, they still had faith in Him. That is big - something we can learn from. They had it really bad, and it would have been very easy for them to go into flashy spirituality (like witchcraft) that seemingly yields results, rather than wait. In fact, many Hebrews did do that.

 

[devolved]

The reason Jesus' physical body is no longer visible is because he now changes people from within themselves, this is even better than seeing him with our eyes. When Jesus changes a person, it's a complete renewal of their being that they can feel from within. This is far more effective because we can know Jesus in a more intimate way than if he was a physical person who was right in front of us.

1) How do you know that it's Jesus and not merely an ideology that leads to a better life choices?

2) Why would it be better than seeing? And how is it relevant as to why Jesus left? He left so he can hide and do things incognito?

The problem of not being there and ascribing "done by invisible Jesus" seems to be a problem when Christianity isn't in the best shape it can be when it comes to being "Jesus-like". Is Jesus doing a bad job?

Again, I don't see how being invisible is better for the world of people who would rather see prior to believing.