Three Witnesses Against the Masoretic Text

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Why is it so difficult to respond to one post with one post instead of two or three?

There are many quotes from the OG LXX in the writings of the Apostles, including Paul, which you now apparently double down and call "pigs over a cliff". Moreover who cares if Greeks were pig farmers? What does that have to do with the Apostles of Meshiah who were mostly fishermen and surely not pig farmers?

Here is another quote from the Epistle to the Hebrews quoting the OG LXX:

Hebrews 2:7 T/R
7 ηλαττωσας αυτον βραχυ τι παρ αγγελους δοξη και τιμη εστεφανωσας αυτον [Psa 8:5 OG LXX] και κατεστησας αυτον επι τα εργα των χειρων σου

Psalms 8:5 OG LXX
5 (8:6) ηλαττωσας αυτον βραχυ τι παρ αγγελους δοξη και τιμη εστεφανωσας αυτον

"You have made him a little lower than [the] angels", which in the Hebrew Text says מאלהים, (me·Elohim), and is therefore debatable in the Hebrew Text because the mem prefix takes the place of the article if indeed the article is intended, and why some translators simply choose not to believe what the OG LXX actually says, and which is quoted herein by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews.

Psalm 8:5 KJV
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Psalms 8:5 ASV
5 For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor.

So according to your judgment, (as it appears, now that you have doubled down), the above text from the OG LXX and the word-for-word verbatim quote in the Epistle to the Hebrews is pig slop from pig farmers?
I'm glad that you are capable of writing hebrew. It's a Gift .
When paul was given a commission to explore . I wonder if he was told to find the helenes jews with his m knowledge of the books of censuses.
Being a pharisee I imagine that he had access to lineages and families of jews after keeping the books for Greco-Roman leaders.. Kinda like mathew the tax collector but on another level .
A Northern road and all reminds me of a person sent forth to find shem.
To even dare venture as far as where chattel hebrew slaves were traded. Ie Rome!
I think that Paul was sent to share the gospel to jews living in captivity under pagan rulers. And that kefa was founded in where he was strong in the hebrew community.
Only Paul the lawyer could navigate the stranger's laws with precision after considering that he knew them well. Acts
 
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daq

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Do you have an issue with my Jewish relatives?

My forefathers rendered the Hebrew Text into the OG LXX.
Who therefore is the one with a problem with "Jewish relatives"?

Greek pigs may have cloven feet but they're incapable of chewing cud hence being non-kosher

Indeed the Hebrews 2:7 quote from Psalm 8:5 is a break in theological background context: for the forefathers who rendered the OG LXX surely read me·Elohim as with the definite article implied, (me·ha·Elohim), and that is clear by the fact that they read the text as Angels or Messengers, (aggelous), instead of Elohim.

And ha·Elohim in this manner would be, of course, "the Elohim", which is more specifically a Henokian-Tzadokim doctrine which may be found in Henok 20 where the seven holy Malakim who watch are named, and those seven are indeed called ha·Elohim, meaning "the Angels", specific to those seven morning Stars of the opening creation account.

This doctrine is reinforced and taught from the very beginning: for both Henok and Noah walked with ha·Elohim, the seven eyes of HE WHO IS, and Noah found grace in the [seven] eyes of HE WHO IS.

Gen 5:22 (ha·Elohim), Gen 5:24 (ha·Elohim), Gen 6:9, (ha·Elohim),
Gen 6:8, Dt 11:12, Dt 13:18, 2Sam 15:25, 1Kgs 15:5, Psa 34:15, Prov 15:3, 1Pe 3:12,
Zec 3:9, Zec 4:10, Rev 5:6 ... . ...

Ha·Elohim are the seven holy Elohim-Malakim who watch, (Henok XX), the seven eyes of HE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO SHALL BE, which are sent forth into all His land, the seven Spirits before His throne: and this is most assuredly a Henokian-Tzadokim SCRIPTURE doctrine which your forefathers rejected following the events of 70-135AD.

My forefathers produced the OG LXX (Torah) 1300 years before your forefathers produced the M/T.
 
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My forefathers rendered the Hebrew Text into the OG LXX.
Who therefore is the one with a problem with "Jewish relatives"?



Indeed the Hebrews 2:7 quote from Psalm 8:5 is a break in theological background context: for the forefathers who rendered the OG LXX surely read me·Elohim as with the definite article implied, (me·ha·Elohim), and that is clear by the fact that they read the text as Angels or Messengers, (aggelous), instead of Elohim.

And ha·Elohim in this manner would be, of course, "the Elohim", which is more specifically a Henokian-Tzadokim doctrine which may be found in Henok 20 where the seven holy Malakim who watch are named, and those seven are indeed called ha·Elohim, meaning "the Angels", specific to those seven morning Stars of the opening creation account.

This doctrine is reinforced and taught from the very beginning: for both Henok and Noah walked with ha·Elohim, the seven eyes of HE WHO IS, and Noah found grace in the [seven] eyes of HE WHO IS.

Gen 5:22 (ha·Elohim), Gen 5:24 (ha·Elohim), Gen 6:9, (ha·Elohim),
Gen 6:8, Dt 11:12, Dt 13:18, 2Sam 15:25, 1Kgs 15:5, Psa 34:15, Prov 15:3, 1Pe 3:12,
Zec 3:9, Zec 4:10, Rev 5:6 ... . ...

Ha·Elohim are the seven holy Elohim-Malakim who watch, (Henok XX), the seven eyes of HE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO SHALL BE, which are sent forth into all His land, the seven Spirits before His throne: and this is most assuredly a Henokian-Tzadokim SCRIPTURE doctrine which your forefathers rejected following the events of 70-135AD.

My forefathers produced the OG LXX (Torah) 1300 years before your forefathers produced the M/T.
I can only interpret your post to mean that you're greek!.
Fare the well in the protest and search of the hyper prefix
 
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The lxx mentioned in the talmud isnt the "brenton" transmission. It's a reference to the lost script burned in the library of Alexander and lost during the greco destruction of the First Temple relationship. Pigs over a cliff etc.
What has now been claimed to be that greek translation is well aloof from the original.
What the talmud is referencing was lost.
Counterfeit currency is the area of mammon.
If I recall correctly, Greeks were pig farmers, and a greek leader slaughtered a pig or pigs in the temple!
I can only interpret your post to mean that you're greek!.
Fare the well

I can only interpret your post to mean that you are willing to change the meaning of my words to suit your own paradigm. Count 1300 years before the Masoretic text of 1000AD and you should have known that I spoke of my forefathers who produced the OG LXX commencing about circa 280BC according to historical records which practically no one without an agenda disputes.

Do you not see that I went deeper than you had gone? You played the "who is a Jew" card but my forefathers are bnei Tzadok, Kohanim, while by your own confession your forefathers are bnei Perushim from 500 to 1300 years after the fact.

Moreover not even the Talmud was willing to speak lashon hara against my forefathers and thus counted the OG LXX as holy and inspired, and openly admitted it, (at least the Torah portions which were translated first, commencing circa 280BC).

Therefore the Torah is my witness in this:

Deuteronomy 19:16-20 KJV (Masoretic Text)
16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

Deuteronomy 19:16-20 Brenton LXX Translation
16 And if an unjust witness rise up against a man, alleging iniquity against him;
17 then shall the two men between whom the controversy is, stand before the Lord, and before the priests, and before the judges, who may be in those days.
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquiry, and, behold, if and unjust witness has borne unjust testimony; and has stood up against his brother;
19 then shall ye do to him as he wickedly devised to do against his brother, and thou shalt remove the evil from yourselves.
20 And the rest shall hear and fear, and do no more according to this evil thing in the midst of you.

Or whichever translation you prefer to read from. Moreover the Judges are also called ha·Elohim, (Exo 21:6, Exo 22:8-9, Exo 22:28), so be aware that they are not always whom you might imagine them to be.

Greek pigs may have cloven feet but they're incapable of chewing cud hence being non-kosher
 
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I can only interpret your post to mean that you are willing to change the meaning of my words to suit your own paradigm. Count 1300 years before the Masoretic text of 1000AD and you should have known that I spoke of my forefathers who produced the OG LXX commencing about circa 280BC according to historical records which practically no one without an agenda disputes.

Do you not see that I went deeper than you had gone? You played the "who is a Jew" card but my forefathers are bnei Tzadok, Kohanim, while by your own confession your forefathers are bnei Perushim from 500 to 1300 years after the fact.

Moreover not even the Talmud was willing to speak lashon hara against my forefathers and thus counted the OG LXX as holy and inspired, and openly admitted it, (at least the Torah portions which were translated first, commencing circa 280BC).

Therefore the Torah is my witness in this:

Deuteronomy 19:16-20 KJV (Masoretic Text)
16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

Deuteronomy 19:16-20 Brenton LXX Translation
16 And if an unjust witness rise up against a man, alleging iniquity against him;
17 then shall the two men between whom the controversy is, stand before the Lord, and before the priests, and before the judges, who may be in those days.
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquiry, and, behold, if and unjust witness has borne unjust testimony; and has stood up against his brother;
19 then shall ye do to him as he wickedly devised to do against his brother, and thou shalt remove the evil from yourselves.
20 And the rest shall hear and fear, and do no more according to this evil thing in the midst of you.

Or whichever translation you prefer to read from. Moreover the Judges are also called ha·Elohim, (Exo 21:6, Exo 22:8-9, Exo 22:28), so be aware that they are not always whom you might imagine them to be.
Brentons lxx is far behind the history of the Masoretic text considered canon by this Forum. Chronological wise there are no congruent greek text aside from the gospels.

History is clear and evidential, similar to math and science. No one can argue against numbers nor the effects of the elements.

The Talmud most certainly speaks against the greeks and their actions. And Truthfully so the talmud is the only place where lashon hara is found. Specifically in halacha.[ truthful testimony] in contrast to the false witnesses in chronicles and kings.
 
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Brentons lxx is far behind the history of the Masoretic text considered canon by this Forum. Chronological wise there are no congruent greek text aside from the gospels.

History is clear and evidential, similar to math and science. No one can argue against numbers nor the effects of the elements.

The Talmud most certainly speaks against the greeks and their actions. And Truthfully so the talmud is the only place where lashon hara is found. Specifically in halacha.[ truthful testimony] in contrast to the false witnesses in chronicles and kings.
Ignoring lashon hara is a transgression of Torah.
 
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daq

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Brentons lxx is far behind the history of the Masoretic text considered canon by this Forum. Chronological wise there are no congruent greek text aside from the gospels.

Once again you utterly exclude all Greek writings except for the Gospel accounts? What happened to everything that follows the Gospel of John? And where is that stated to be acceptable teaching in the SOP?

The SOP says two things related to this:

Literature: While we believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d, we also believe that it can be educational and informative to study other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc. We believe, as Yeshua taught, that this does not overrule the Torah, nor is on equal basis with Torah, but it can be used to clarify ambiguous passages in the Bible.

So then, we can study and discuss "other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc." but we cannot believe the OG LXX is worthy of instruction even though the Talmud openly admits it to be so? And this is for no other reason than the fact that you protest because it may appear damaging to your paradigm?

And here is the other even more critical statement which you might want to review:

Non-negotiable points:
  • No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or against Yeshua as Messiah**

History is clear and evidential, similar to math and science. No one can argue against numbers nor the effects of the elements.

And the undisputed historical record informs us that Kohanim, Scribes, Sages, and Yhudim rendered the Hebrew Text which they had in their time into the Greek LXX, commencing with the Torah portions, circa 280BC. No amount of denial or lashon hara on your part, calling it pig farmer's mammon, will change that fact.

The Talmud most certainly speaks against the greeks and their actions. And Truthfully so the talmud is the only place where lashon hara is found. Specifically in halacha.[ truthful testimony] in contrast to the false witnesses in chronicles and kings.

You already confessed that you watched the videos which @Yahudim posted wherein the Talmud is quoted stating that the (OG) LXX was considered to be holy/inspired. Your argument is entirely contradictory and reveals the fallacy in your claims.
 
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As for the statement from the Talmud it was even posted by @Yahudim in a screen shot from one of the videos, (Part 3), in the following post from a different thread where this came up.


The reference given and quoted is from Megillah 9a.
Here is that passage from Sefaria:

Sefaria Translation of Megillah 9a:11 said:
The Gemara continues: And this was due to the incident of King Ptolemy, as it is taught in a baraita: There was an incident involving King Ptolemy of Egypt, who assembled seventy-two Elders from the Sages of Israel, and put them into seventy-two separate rooms, and did not reveal to them for what purpose he assembled them, so that they would not coordinate their responses. He entered and approached each and every one, and said to each of them: Write for me a translation of the Torah of Moses your teacher. The Holy One, Blessed be He, placed wisdom in the heart of each and every one, and they all agreed to one common understanding. Not only did they all translate the text correctly, they all introduced the same changes into the translated text.

Moreover anyone who reads this passage from the top will plainly see that the passage teaches that the Torah may be written not only in Greek but in any language, aside from the fact that it also teaches that the OG LXX was rendered by such as whom the Most High placed wisdom in the heart of each and every one of them, (as stated in the above quote), and the paragraph concludes with the statement, "Not only did they all translate the text correctly, they all introduced the same changes into the translated text."

The Talmud itself is therefore indeed openly affirming the OG LXX and essentially stating that it was inspired by saying that the Most High placed wisdom in the heart of each and every translator: and not only all of this, but it is also confirming the same thing Josephus and others report concerning the timing and the circumstances, circa 285-280BC, in the reign of one of the Ptolemies, (Ptolemy II Philadelphus, 285-247BC).

Septuagint - Wikipedia:
According to tradition, Ptolemy II Philadelphus (the Greek Pharaoh of Egypt) sent seventy-two Hebrew translators—six from each of the Twelve Tribes of Israel—from Jerusalem to Alexandria to translate the Tanakh from Biblical Hebrew into Koine Greek, for inclusion in his library.[20] This narrative is found in the possibly pseudepigraphic Letter of Aristeas to his brother Philocrates,[21] and is repeated by Philo of Alexandria, Josephus (in Antiquities of the Jews),[22] and by later sources (including Augustine of Hippo).[23] It is also found in the Tractate Megillah of the Babylonian Talmud:

That is no less than five historical sources:
1) The Letter of Aristeas
2) Philo of Alexandria
3) Josephus (Antiquities)
4) Tractate Megillah 9a
5) Augustine of Hippo

Moreover, in the introduction to the Brenton English Septuagint Translation, Sir Lancelot Brenton also states that "the earliest writer to give an account of the Septuagint version is Aristobulus, a Jew who lived at the commencement of the second century B.C", (that's now six historical sources). And moreover in this introduction Brenton rightly admits that the story from the Letter of Aristeas does have fanciful elaborations, and yet, goes on to essentially prove that the OG LXX is undoubtedly as old as is claimed by ancient historians and writers, (again, at the very least, at least the Torah portion).

Therefore those who hold the Talmud as authoritative, and yet set about discrediting, marginalizing, and denigrating the OG LXX, are greatly overstepping the limitations of their own self-imposed boundaries they have set for themselves by upholding the Talmud: for the Talmud affirms the OG LXX, even going so far as to state that the translation is correct, and that those who rendered it from the Hebrew Text were given the wisdom from On High to render it as they did.
 
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History is clear and evidential, similar to math and science. No one can argue against numbers nor the effects of the elements.

Here is a math problem, and a History question, all rolled into one, for you: How long did the sons of Israel dwell in the land of Egypt, according to Exodus 12:40?
 
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Masoretic text considered canon by this Forum.
Which Canon? Are 1 Enoch, and Jubilees in your "Canon," as they are in the "Canon" of Yahshua and his Apostles?

By the way. Yahshua and his Apostles quoted most often from the LXX, than from variants.

Surely Yahshua knew what he was talking about. Wouldn't you agree?
 
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Which Canon? Are 1 Enoch, and Jubilees in your "Canon," as they are in the "Canon" of Yahshua and his Apostles?

By the way. Yahshua and his Apostles quoted most often from the LXX, than from variants.

Surely Yahshua knew what he was talking about. Wouldn't you agree?
I disagree.
The greek translation was of the Torah alone. Because the "Prophets and "Writings were strictly forbidden from being scribed in any language other than hebrew.
Read the Talmud link shared by @daq for reference.
Also there were a number of translated variations that signified authenticity.
Wise as serpents",....
 
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I disagree.
The greek translation was of the Torah alone. Because the "Prophets and "Writings were strictly forbidden from being scribed in any language other than hebrew.
Are you saying that you disagree with Yahshua and his disciples? How about the Zadokim? The LXX was found in their Library too; and YHWH, himself appointed them as authorities on scripture. The MT was not found in their library.


The Pharisees are not the authorities on these matters; and Yahshua rebuked them for invalidating the word of YHWH, by their traditions.
 
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Are you saying that you disagree with Yahshua and his disciples? How about the Zadokim? The LXX was found in their Library too; and YHWH, himself appointed them as authorities on scripture. The MT was not found in their library.


The Pharisees are not the authorities on these matters; and Yahshua rebuked them for invalidating the word of YHWH, by their traditions.
I dont know what a "Zadokim library" is. Would you please elaborate?
 
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I dont know what a "Zadokim library" is. Would you please elaborate?
It was found in the wilderness, beyond the Jordan valley, at Betharaba. You might know the location by its' Islamic name, Qumran.

Rachel Elior presents a highly informative dissertation on the subject.

 
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It was found in the wilderness, beyond the Jordan valley, at Betharaba. You might know the location by its' Islamic name, Qumran.

Rachel Elior presents a highly informative dissertation on the subject.

Ah yes I know of those scrolls. And none of the Greek text found there were from the Prophets or Writtings last I heard.
 
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Ah yes I know of those scrolls. And none of the Greek text found there were from the Prophets or Writtings last I heard.
Last I heard neither Genesis nor Exodus are from the Prophets nor the Writings either? Did you read the OP?"

Anyway, the important part is that we got it settled that Yahshua and the Zadokim trump the traditions of Pharisees.
 
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Once again you utterly exclude all Greek writings except for the Gospel accounts? What happened to everything that follows the Gospel of John? And where is that stated to be acceptable teaching in the SOP?

The SOP says two things related to this:



So then, we can study and discuss "other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc." but we cannot believe the OG LXX is worthy of instruction even though the Talmud openly admits it to be so? And this is for no other reason than the fact that you protest because it may appear damaging to your paradigm?

And here is the other even more critical statement which you might want to review:





And the undisputed historical record informs us that Kohanim, Scribes, Sages, and Yhudim rendered the Hebrew Text which they had in their time into the Greek LXX, commencing with the Torah portions, circa 280BC. No amount of denial or lashon hara on your part, calling it pig farmer's mammon, will change that fact.



You already confessed that you watched the videos which @Yahudim posted wherein the Talmud is quoted stating that the (OG) LXX was considered to be holy/inspired. Your argument is entirely contradictory and reveals the fallacy in your claims.
The talmud and historians you mentioned are referencing a Torah[first 5 books] translated to greek.
Which is unrelated to the modern lxx, etc, and every subsequent version.

It was likely lost due to providence.
The megilla gives very specific examples of alterations per ch and verse and reasons for each syntax structure. So specific that a counterfeit can be sussed out easily.
 
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Last I heard neither Genesis nor Exodus are from the Prophets nor the Writings either? Did you read the OP?"

Anyway, the important part is that we got it settled that Yahshua and the Zadokim trump the traditions of Pharisees.
Of course, I've read the op and all post after.

Do you know the difference between alteration and augmentation?
 
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The talmud and historians you mentioned are referencing a Torah[first 5 books] translated to greek.
Which is unrelated to the modern lxx, etc, and every subsequent version.

It was likely lost due to providence.
The megilla gives very specific examples of alterations per ch and verse and reasons for each syntax structure. So specific that a counterfeit can be sussed out easily.


Shemot (Exodus) - Chapter 12​


40And the habitation of the children of Israel, that they dwelled in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.מוּמוֹשַׁב֙ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֲשֶׁ֥ר יָֽשְׁב֖וּ בְּמִצְרָ֑יִם שְׁלשִׁ֣ים שָׁנָ֔ה וְאַרְבַּ֥ע מֵא֖וֹת שָׁנָֽה:

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873/jewish/Chapter-12.htm
More witnesses to the corruption:



(CLV) Ex 7:7
Now Moses was eighty years old, and Aaron was eighty-three years old when they spoke- to Pharaoh.

(CLV) Ex 6:20
Amram took Jochebed, his aunt, as his wife; and she bore for him Aaron, Moses and Miriam, their sister. And the years of the life of Amram were a hundred thirty-seven years.

(CLV) Ex 6:18
The sons of Kohath are Amram, Izhar, Hebron and Uzziel. And the years of the life of Kohath were a hundred thirty-three years.


(CLV) Gn 46:8
These are the names of the sons of Israel who came to Egypt, Jacob and his sons: Reuben, Jacob's firstborn;

(CLV) Gn 46:11
Levi's sons: Gershon, Kohath and Merari.

80 + 137 +133 = ?
 
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