Three Witnesses Against the Masoretic Text

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread is closed for review.​

 

[Aldebaran]

 

[HARK!]

Sincere question about the 2 out of 3 witnesses that you brought to attention. Are you certain that they're not apart of the 3 false witnesses called frogs in Rev 16:13

If it comes down to a choice bhetween Luke or the Masoretes; who will you believe?

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

• The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.

 

[daq]

• The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.

Deuteronomy 32:43-45 KJV (Hebrew Text)
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.
45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel:

Deuteronomy 32:43-45 LXX (Brenton Translation)
43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; [Hebrews 1:6] rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.
44 And Moses wrote this song in that day, and taught it to the children of Israel; and Moses went in and spoke all the words of this law in the ears of the people, he and Joshua the son of Naue.
45 And Moses finished speaking to all Israel.

If indeed the Pharisees and Masoretes had an oral Torah handed down to them from Mosheh, then how on earth did they botch these words from this song, which Mosheh was commanded to rehearse and teach in the ears of all the people, when it was not only oral but actually written right here in the text?

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Deuteronomy 32:43-45 KJV (Hebrew Text)
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.
45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel:

Deuteronomy 32:43-45 LXX (Brenton Translation)
43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; [Hebrews 1:6] rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.
44 And Moses wrote this song in that day, and taught it to the children of Israel; and Moses went in and spoke all the words of this law in the ears of the people, he and Joshua the son of Naue.
45 And Moses finished speaking to all Israel.

If indeed the Pharisees and Masoretes had an oral Torah handed down to them from Mosheh, then how on earth did they botch these words from this song, which Mosheh was commanded to rehearse and teach in the ears of all the people, when it was not only oral but actually written right here in the text?

I take the oracles ie malak'm of eloh'm to be more trustworthy than "brenton".
After all the sop is directly referencing the canon masoretic text, and subsequent protestant translated from such to be the ordained of "G-d".
If I'm mistaken then the sop will need to be changed

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Deuteronomy 32:43-45 KJV (Hebrew Text)
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.
45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel:

Deuteronomy 32:43-45 LXX (Brenton Translation)
43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; [Hebrews 1:6] rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.
44 And Moses wrote this song in that day, and taught it to the children of Israel; and Moses went in and spoke all the words of this law in the ears of the people, he and Joshua the son of Naue.
45 And Moses finished speaking to all Israel.

If indeed the Pharisees and Masoretes had an oral Torah handed down to them from Mosheh, then how on earth did they botch these words from this song, which Mosheh was commanded to rehearse and teach in the ears of all the people, when it was not only oral but actually written right here in the text?

Historical knowledge acts as a bridge of understanding

 

[daq]

I take the oracles ie malakim of elohim to be more trustworthy than "brenton".
After all the sop is directly referencing the canon masoretic text, and subsequent protestant translated from such to be the ordained of "G-d".
If I'm mistaken then the sop will need to be changed

Brenton is merely rendering what is in the Greek LXX which is stated by the Talmud itself to be holy/inspired, if you remember the videos which @Yahudim posted, and which you said that you had watched, (even all three in a three part series, if I remember correctly).

Yes, I just went and rechecked, and you did say that you watched all three videos here:

MJ Only - Talmud Written AFTER 'New Testament' says Talmud Prof. Dr. Hananel Mack of Bar-Ilan University in Israel

For nearly twenty years, I have witnessed leaders, teachers, and 'Rabbis' from both the Hebrew Roots movement and Messianic Judaism, fall all over themselves trying to appear more 'authentic' - by being more 'Rabbinic'. Please understand, I am not being critical of anyone's sincerity, or being...

www.christianforums.com

So the Talmud a.k.a. Oral law confesses that the OG (Old Greek) LXX is inspired and-or holy, and why? because they knew it was rendered into Greek by sages, scribes, and Kohanim of Yisrael, (at least the Torah portions to begin with, approximately circa 280BC), so they knew better than to openly go against the sages, scribes, and Kohanim of Yisrael who came before them and translated the Hebrew Text into the OG LXX.

Deuteronomy 32:43 OG LXX
43 ευφρανθητε ουρανοι αμα αυτω και προσκυνησατωσαν αυτω παντες υιοι θεου ευφρανθητε εθνη μετα του λαου αυτου και ενισχυσατωσαν αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου οτι το αιμα των υιων αυτου εκδικαται και εκδικησει και ανταποδωσει δικην τοις εχθροις και τοις μισουσιν ανταποδωσει και εκκαθαριει κυριος την γην του λαου αυτου

Hebrews 1:6 T/R / BYZ
6 οταν δε παλιν εισαγαγη τον πρωτοτοκον εις την οικουμενην λεγει και προσκυνησατωσαν αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου

Hebrews 1:6 N/A / W/H
6 οταν δε παλιν εισαγαγη τον πρωτοτοκον εις την οικουμενην λεγει και προσκυνησατωσαν αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου

All of the most important Greek Codices, Manuscripts, and Texts for Hebrews 1:6 contain the rendering from the OG LXX, "και προσκυνησατωσαν [αυτω παντες υιοι θεου ευφρανθητε εθνη μετα του λαου αυτου και ενισχυσατωσαν] αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου".

 

[HARK!]

Historical knowledge acts as a bridge of understanding

How does that work with Revisionist History?

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

---

Brenton is merely rendering what is in the Greek LXX which is stated by the Talmud itself to be holy/inspired, if you remember the videos which @Yahudim posted, and which you said that you had watched, (even all three in a three part series, if I remember correctly).

Yes, I just went and rechecked, and you did say that you watched all three videos here:

MJ Only - Talmud Written AFTER 'New Testament' says Talmud Prof. Dr. Hananel Mack of Bar-Ilan University in Israel

For nearly twenty years, I have witnessed leaders, teachers, and 'Rabbis' from both the Hebrew Roots movement and Messianic Judaism, fall all over themselves trying to appear more 'authentic' - by being more 'Rabbinic'. Please understand, I am not being critical of anyone's sincerity, or being...

www.christianforums.com

So the Talmud a.k.a. Oral law confesses that the OG (Old Greek) LXX is inspired and-or holy, and why? because they knew it was rendered into Greek by sages, scribes, and Kohanim of Yisrael, (at least the Torah portions to begin with, approximately circa 280BC), so they knew better than to openly go against the sages, scribes, and Kohanim of Yisrael who came before them and translated the Hebrew Text into the OG LXX.

Deuteronomy 32:43 OG LXX
43 ευφρανθητε ουρανοι αμα αυτω και προσκυνησατωσαν αυτω παντες υιοι θεου ευφρανθητε εθνη μετα του λαου αυτου και ενισχυσατωσαν αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου οτι το αιμα των υιων αυτου εκδικαται και εκδικησει και ανταποδωσει δικην τοις εχθροις και τοις μισουσιν ανταποδωσει και εκκαθαριει κυριος την γην του λαου αυτου

Hebrews 1:6 T/R / BYZ
6 οταν δε παλιν εισαγαγη τον πρωτοτοκον εις την οικουμενην λεγει και προσκυνησατωσαν αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου

Hebrews 1:6 N/A / W/H
6 οταν δε παλιν εισαγαγη τον πρωτοτοκον εις την οικουμενην λεγει και προσκυνησατωσαν αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου

All of the most important Greek Codices, Manuscripts, and Texts for Hebrews 1:6 contain the rendering from the OG LXX, "και προσκυνησατωσαν [αυτω παντες υιοι θεου ευφρανθητε εθνη μετα του λαου αυτου και ενισχυσατωσαν] αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου".

The lxx mentioned in the talmud isnt the "brenton" transmission. It's a reference to the lost script burned in the library of Alexander and lost during the greco destruction of the First Temple relationship. Pigs over a cliff etc.
What has now been claimed to be that greek translation is well aloof from the original.
What the talmud is referencing was lost.
Counterfeit currency is the area of mammon.
Hence the parabola

 

[daq]

Historical knowledge acts as a bridge of understanding

They had it both in oral and written form right there in the text, and yet, they omitted a critical statement from the passage. If therefore they actually had multiple texts from which they were compiling the Masoretic text, they should have surely known which text was correct because they claim to have had an oral law passed down from Mosheh. The only real options left here are that they either guessed wrong or it was an intentional omission due to anti-Meshiah theology. I'll leave that up to others to decide but the fact of the matter is that they should have known to include the missing portion if indeed they had an oral law passed down from Mosheh. In fact most all of the written Torah itself is oral: the Most High speaks to Mosheh and commands him what to speak and teach the people, over and over and over again, and Mosheh does so, and then it gets written down in the Torah: so it was nearly all oral to begin with and yet then it was written also by Mosheh.

 

[daq]

---

The lxx mentioned in the talmud isnt the "brenton" transmission. It's a reference to the lost script burned in the library of Alexander and lost during the greco destruction of the First Temple relationship. Pigs over a cliff etc.
What has now been claimed to be that greek translation is well aloof from the original.
What the talmud is referencing was lost.
Counterfeit currency is the area of mammon.
Hence the parabola

Now you are accusing the Sent Ones (Apostles) of Meshiah in the Briyth Hadashah of quoting from "Pigs over a cliff" (implying demon possessed pigs), "counterfeit currency", and "the area of mammon".

And you think the SOP may need to be changed?

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

---

Brenton is merely rendering what is in the Greek LXX which is stated by the Talmud itself to be holy/inspired, if you remember the videos which @Yahudim posted, and which you said that you had watched, (even all three in a three part series, if I remember correctly).

Yes, I just went and rechecked, and you did say that you watched all three videos here:

MJ Only - Talmud Written AFTER 'New Testament' says Talmud Prof. Dr. Hananel Mack of Bar-Ilan University in Israel

For nearly twenty years, I have witnessed leaders, teachers, and 'Rabbis' from both the Hebrew Roots movement and Messianic Judaism, fall all over themselves trying to appear more 'authentic' - by being more 'Rabbinic'. Please understand, I am not being critical of anyone's sincerity, or being...

www.christianforums.com

So the Talmud a.k.a. Oral law confesses that the OG (Old Greek) LXX is inspired and-or holy, and why? because they knew it was rendered into Greek by sages, scribes, and Kohanim of Yisrael, (at least the Torah portions to begin with, approximately circa 280BC), so they knew better than to openly go against the sages, scribes, and Kohanim of Yisrael who came before them and translated the Hebrew Text into the OG LXX.

Deuteronomy 32:43 OG LXX
43 ευφρανθητε ουρανοι αμα αυτω και προσκυνησατωσαν αυτω παντες υιοι θεου ευφρανθητε εθνη μετα του λαου αυτου και ενισχυσατωσαν αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου οτι το αιμα των υιων αυτου εκδικαται και εκδικησει και ανταποδωσει δικην τοις εχθροις και τοις μισουσιν ανταποδωσει και εκκαθαριει κυριος την γην του λαου αυτου

Hebrews 1:6 T/R / BYZ
6 οταν δε παλιν εισαγαγη τον πρωτοτοκον εις την οικουμενην λεγει και προσκυνησατωσαν αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου

Hebrews 1:6 N/A / W/H
6 οταν δε παλιν εισαγαγη τον πρωτοτοκον εις την οικουμενην λεγει και προσκυνησατωσαν αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου

All of the most important Greek Codices, Manuscripts, and Texts for Hebrews 1:6 contain the rendering from the OG LXX, "και προσκυνησατωσαν [αυτω παντες υιοι θεου ευφρανθητε εθνη μετα του λαου αυτου και ενισχυσατωσαν] αυτω παντες αγγελοι θεου".

The lxx mentioned in the talmud isnt the "brenton" transmission. It's a reference to the lost script burned in the library of Alexander and lost during the greco destruction of the First Temple relationship. Pigs over a cliff etc.
What has now been claimed to be that greek translation is well aloof from the original.
What the talmud is referencing was lost.
Counterfeit currency is the area of mammon

They had it both in oral and written form right there in the text, and yet, they omitted a critical statement from the passage. If therefore they actually had multiple texts from which they were compiling the Masoretic text, they should have surely known which text was correct because they claim to have had an oral law passed down from Mosheh. The only real options left here are that they either guessed wrong or it was an intentional omission due to anti-Meshiah theology. I'll leave that up to others to decide but the fact of the matter is that they should have known to include the missing portion if indeed they had an oral law passed down from Mosheh. In fact most all of the written Torah itself is oral: the Most High speaks to Mosheh and commands him what to speak and teach the people, over and over and over again, and Mosheh does so, and then it gets written down in the Torah: so it was nearly all oral to begin with and yet then it was written also by Mosheh.

Oral tradition is related to numbers/bmd'bar. Moshe was given wisdom from his father in law. This is an instance where a scribal burden is lifted from him. The first instance where writing is taught second hand. Remember that Yeshua mentioned the script of divorce,?
Which is very strictly spoken of in talmud

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Now you are accusing the Sent Ones (Apostles) of Meshiah in the Briyth Hadashah of quoting from "Pigs over a cliff" (implying demon possessed pigs), "counterfeit currency", and "the area of mammon".

And you think the SOP may need to be changed?

If I recall correctly, Greeks were pig farmers, and a greek leader slaughtered a pig or pigs in the temple!

Am I correct?

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Now you are accusing the Sent Ones (Apostles) of Meshiah in the Briyth Hadashah of quoting from "Pigs over a cliff" (implying demon possessed pigs), "counterfeit currency", and "the area of mammon".

And you think the SOP may need to be changed? I can tell from the puzzle of history is that the greeks were given a chance and then they failed the test of Faith in fruits after they recieved the message of a Moshe'q to come.

I can only see after Paul's commission where the lost fold is found and gathered. Hence the few 1st century greek gospel letters we have today.
An only greek letter(s) of value.
Hope that my words are clear.!

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Now you are accusing the Sent Ones (Apostles) of Meshiah in the Briyth Hadashah of quoting from "Pigs over a cliff" (implying demon possessed pigs), "counterfeit currency", and "the area of mammon".

And you think the SOP may need to be changed?

You seem to me to be a very capable reader that can cover the talmud in hrs.
So I believe that you could read far more material than what video infrastructure/influencers can do .

There is nothing wrong with working out Salvation.

 

[daq]

---

The lxx mentioned in the talmud isnt the "brenton" transmission. It's a reference to the lost script burned in the library of Alexander and lost during the greco destruction of the First Temple relationship. Pigs over a cliff etc.
What has now been claimed to be that greek translation is well aloof from the original.
What the talmud is referencing was lost.
Counterfeit currency is the area of mammon

Oral tradition is related to numbers/bmd'bar. Moshe was given wisdom from his father in law. This is an instance where a scribal burden is lifted from him. The first instance where writing is taught second hand. Remember that Yeshua mentioned the script of divorce,?
Which is very strictly spoken of in talmud

If I recall correctly, Greeks were pig farmers, and a greek leader slaughtered a pig or pigs in the temple!

Am I correct?

I can only see after Paul's commission were the lost fold is found and gathered. Hence the few 1st century greek gospel letters we have today.
The only greek of value.
Hope that my words are clear.!

Why is it so difficult to respond to one post with one post instead of two or three?

There are many quotes from the OG LXX in the writings of the Apostles, including Paul, which you now apparently double down and call "pigs over a cliff". Moreover who cares if Greeks were pig farmers? What does that have to do with the Apostles of Meshiah who were mostly fishermen and surely not pig farmers?

Here is another quote from the Epistle to the Hebrews quoting the OG LXX:

Hebrews 2:7 T/R
7 ηλαττωσας αυτον βραχυ τι παρ αγγελους δοξη και τιμη εστεφανωσας αυτον [Psa 8:5 OG LXX] και κατεστησας αυτον επι τα εργα των χειρων σου

Psalms 8:5 OG LXX
5 (8:6) ηλαττωσας αυτον βραχυ τι παρ αγγελους δοξη και τιμη εστεφανωσας αυτον

"You have made him a little lower than [the] angels", which in the Hebrew Text says מאלהים, (me·Elohim), and is therefore debatable in the Hebrew Text because the mem prefix takes the place of the article if indeed the article is intended, and why some translators simply choose not to believe what the OG LXX actually says, and which is quoted herein by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews.

Psalm 8:5 KJV
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Psalms 8:5 ASV
5 For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor.

So according to your judgment, (as it appears, now that you have doubled down), the above text from the OG LXX and the word-for-word verbatim quote in the Epistle to the Hebrews is pig slop from pig farmers?

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Perhaps another forum called contest or controversy should be created?

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Why is it so difficult to respond to one post with one post instead of two or three?

There are many quotes from the OG LXX in the writings of the Apostles, including Paul, which you now apparently double down and call "pigs over a cliff". Moreover who cares if Greeks were pig farmers? What does that have to do with the Apostles of Meshiah who were mostly fishermen and surely not pig farmers?

Here is another quote from the Epistle to the Hebrews quoting the OG LXX:

Hebrews 2:7 T/R
7 ηλαττωσας αυτον βραχυ τι παρ αγγελους δοξη και τιμη εστεφανωσας αυτον [Psa 8:5 OG LXX] και κατεστησας αυτον επι τα εργα των χειρων σου

Psalms 8:5 OG LXX
5 (8:6) ηλαττωσας αυτον βραχυ τι παρ αγγελους δοξη και τιμη εστεφανωσας αυτον

"You have made him a little lower than [the] angels", which in the Hebrew Text says מאלהים, (me·Elohim), and is therefore debatable in the Hebrew Text because the mem prefix takes the place of the article if indeed the article is intended, and why some translators simply choose not to believe what the OG LXX actually says, and which is quoted herein by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews.

Psalm 8:5 KJV
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Psalms 8:5 ASV
5 For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor.

So according to your judgment, (as it appears, now that you have doubled down), the above text from the OG LXX and the word-for-word verbatim quote in the Epistle to the Hebrews is pig slop from pig farmers?

Greek pigs may have cloven feet but they're incapable of chewing cud hence being non-kosher

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Greek pigs may have cloven feet but they're incapable of chewing cud hence being non-kosher

Do you have an issue with my Jewish relatives?