But they have the sacrament of baptism...
What does hierarchical structure have to do with anything?
What does hierarchical structure have to do with anything?
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The Sacraments - 2 or 7 How do we know?
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ok,
my church doesn't believe in seven sacraments, but i'll have a crack at the verses which might be used to support them as instituted by Christ.
Holy Communion: Luke 22: 19: And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (as well as other verses. i don't think there's many Christians who dispute this).
Baptism: Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (again, I don't think many Christians dispute this one.)
Confirmation: John 20:22 "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:", with: Acts 8:15 "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." and, Hebrews 6:2 "Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."
Confession: John 20:23 "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." Matthew 18:17 "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." with, James 5:16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
Holy Orders: Mark 3:14 "And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:" and, John 20:21 "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." with: 1 Timothy 4:14 "Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."
Holy Matrimony: Matthew 19:4: "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." with, Ephesians 5:22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."
Holy Unction (Healing): Matthew 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Mark 3:15 "And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:" Luke9:1 "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick." Luke 10:9 "And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you." Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." with, James 5:14 "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."
my church doesn't believe in seven sacraments, but i'll have a crack at the verses which might be used to support them as instituted by Christ.
Holy Communion: Luke 22: 19: And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (as well as other verses. i don't think there's many Christians who dispute this).
Baptism: Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (again, I don't think many Christians dispute this one.)
Confirmation: John 20:22 "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:", with: Acts 8:15 "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." and, Hebrews 6:2 "Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."
Confession: John 20:23 "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." Matthew 18:17 "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." with, James 5:16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
Holy Orders: Mark 3:14 "And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:" and, John 20:21 "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." with: 1 Timothy 4:14 "Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."
Holy Matrimony: Matthew 19:4: "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." with, Ephesians 5:22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."
Holy Unction (Healing): Matthew 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Mark 3:15 "And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:" Luke9:1 "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick." Luke 10:9 "And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you." Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." with, James 5:14 "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."
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well, I don't wish to become Roman Catholic, as I can't find support for the Pope in the Scriptures. there is no Orthodox church in my area, and, at any rate, I'm not convinced about prayers to saints. I also don't want to become Anglican, as they have female pastors, or Lutheran, even if they did have the 7 sacraments, as they have female elders. that pretty much leaves me staying where I am, and, as it's where my family is, I don't see any reason to leave at the moment. in reality, our church practices five out of the seven sacraments (apart from confirmation and confession, regrettably), although not all as sacraments (although, public confession may be practiced in cases of public sin or offence).
edit: while we don't practice confirmation, many churches we are affiliated with have a public confession of faith that is made once a certain age is reached (providing the person confesses to be a Christian)
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they do in AustraliaNot all branches of the Lutheran church have female elders.
. unfortunately. and then they make some excuse about their elders not being the Biblical 'presbyters,' but some other, ??obviously man-made?? function in the church.
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catlick said:
We practice confession, confirmation, marriage, healing and ordination in our church, but we just don't think of them as sacraments.
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If You dont think of them or "use" them as sacraments then they arnt sacraments and if they arnt sacraments then they are symbolic human acts -that is an insult to the sacrament itself, it removes God from the Equation.
Basically your denying that Gods help is required and that - Your going it alone and that your strong enough to do it alone - Now I understand why someone once said on this forum
"Protestantism is too hard I am simply not that Good of a person"
Basically your denying that Gods help is required and that - Your going it alone and that your strong enough to do it alone - Now I understand why someone once said on this forum
"Protestantism is too hard I am simply not that Good of a person"
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catlick said:
No, I don't agree there.
When we confess our sins, we are saying sorry directly to God. How can that remove him from the equation?
When we heal, we are asking God to send a healing spirit.
When we marry, we are asking God to be with us throughout the ups and downs.
When we are confirmed, we are asking to be filled with the Holy Spirit and making promises to share our lives with God.
How can God not be there? We are doing all these things with and for God.
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catlick said:
Not all Protestant Churches say this. The Lutheran Church would say they are more than just symbolic acts. Only a heterodox church would consider them symbolic.
catlick said:
To define a sacrament is to say that it is something which God has given us in order to receive his blessings. Jesus instituted both Baptism and Holy Communion. And even to some extent Lutherans would consider Confession/Absolution as the third sacrament available. IN a sacrament there is a visible element that together with God's word is a blessing to us.
Marriage was ordained at the Beginning w/ Adam and Eve and therefore is considered by the Roman Catholics and Orthodox Churches to be a sacrament.
As the quote goes in Hamlet
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Catlick, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I encourage you to dig in and learn more about Sacraments and the import they have on the Christian and his faith than to write it off as heresy which is what you seem to be doing here.
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catlick said:
1. "Sacrament" is a theological term; it doesn't appear in the Bible. How the term is defined varies.
2. The Bible never uses the word and never numerates such.
3. No, not all Protestants numerate TWO "Sacraments." Some leave the issue a bit open. Some don't believe in any Sacraments at all.
4. No, not all Protestants believe that the Sacraments are "symbolic human acts."
catlick said:
Well, I wouldn't argue with that...
catlick said:
That doesn't mean the concept is unbiblical.
The term "Trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible either.
MY view...
Keep the faith! Share the love!
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Its okay asking God but that is not what a sacrament is, in other words your acts asking God to help in marriage or confirmation or ordination are only at the very most acts of prayer.
A sacrament is not just a promise but a solomn oath a binding act that has both blessings and curses, in the Sacraments we swear an oath to god and God swears an oath with us.
when we enter marriage we realise the gravity and almost imposible situation we put ourselves in so we make an oath to God to love our spous for "richer or poorer" "for "beter for worse" and God makes an oath with us to pour out his grace in order to help us to do it - That is how if marriage is not a sacrament it removes the channel by which God pours out his grace, that is why I believe there is so much divorce around.
A sacrament is not just a promise but a solomn oath a binding act that has both blessings and curses, in the Sacraments we swear an oath to god and God swears an oath with us.
when we enter marriage we realise the gravity and almost imposible situation we put ourselves in so we make an oath to God to love our spous for "richer or poorer" "for "beter for worse" and God makes an oath with us to pour out his grace in order to help us to do it - That is how if marriage is not a sacrament it removes the channel by which God pours out his grace, that is why I believe there is so much divorce around.
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catlick said:
Prayer is one of the most important things we do as Christians.
How do you know that God is swearing an oath to you?
I don't think God is absent in a Church of England marriage ceremony. What makes you think he pours out his grace in a RC ceremony but not an Anglican one? Because you call it a sacrament and we don't?
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Q: Are there two sacraments or are there seven sacraments?
A: The life of the Church is sacramental.
I take issue with the question, for it assumes that there are "things" called "sacraments" and that they can be numbered. I do not believe that to be the case. Rather, the whole life of the church is sacramental in nature, and that one can not put a ruler to it, or put it on a scale.
The essence of "sacrament" is found in the Incarnation. Therein God united Himself to humanity, and by extension to all of creation. The Incarnation will find its culmination in the New Heavens and the New Earth, which is God and creation fully united together, when God fills all things, and is all in all. So the sacramental life is the way in which the Incarnation results in the New Heavens and the New Earth. It is us experiencing the effects of the Incarnation. It is God working THROUGH creation from the inside (having united Himself to it) instead of working ON it from the outside. So really, everything we do is sacramental in nature. When we pray, being filled with the Holy Spirit, we are experiencing the sacramental nature of the church. When we bring food to someone who is hungry, at the same time it is Christ bringing food to that person and it is we who are bringing that food to Christ. That is sharing in the sacramental nature of the Church.
So I cannot say that there are a certain number of sacraments. Our whole existence in the Church is sacramental.
A: The life of the Church is sacramental.
I take issue with the question, for it assumes that there are "things" called "sacraments" and that they can be numbered. I do not believe that to be the case. Rather, the whole life of the church is sacramental in nature, and that one can not put a ruler to it, or put it on a scale.
The essence of "sacrament" is found in the Incarnation. Therein God united Himself to humanity, and by extension to all of creation. The Incarnation will find its culmination in the New Heavens and the New Earth, which is God and creation fully united together, when God fills all things, and is all in all. So the sacramental life is the way in which the Incarnation results in the New Heavens and the New Earth. It is us experiencing the effects of the Incarnation. It is God working THROUGH creation from the inside (having united Himself to it) instead of working ON it from the outside. So really, everything we do is sacramental in nature. When we pray, being filled with the Holy Spirit, we are experiencing the sacramental nature of the church. When we bring food to someone who is hungry, at the same time it is Christ bringing food to that person and it is we who are bringing that food to Christ. That is sharing in the sacramental nature of the Church.
So I cannot say that there are a certain number of sacraments. Our whole existence in the Church is sacramental.
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