Regeneration preceeds faith

[FreeGrace2]

No offense intended but your well trained in a view which raises man to having a power to do what scripture teaches he cannot do.

You have yet to prove that man is unable to believe the gospel. God created mankind to seek Him. It makes NO SENSE to do that yet not include the ability to understand and believe His promise of eternal life.

I am waiting however, for you to show in scripture the teaching man has the ability within himself to seek after Christ and believe all of himself.

FACT: God created mankind to seek Him. That's ability. You've failed to prove from Scripture that man cannot believe the promise that God makes.

Prevenient grace does not work simply because no matter how much one is wooed or persuaded he, man, is still not able to respond spiritually, he is dead to it until he is regenerate. It takes nothing short then a supernatural act of God on man's behalf.

Please prove from Scripture that man must be regenerated in order to believe.

But please, present scripture to teach the opposite.

Burden's on your view. Scripture please.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have been given much scripture already.

None which supports your claims.

 

[Foghorn]

I've given you a question regarding how you either believe or not believe when information if presented to you. Please expalin HOW you believe, and HOW you don't believe.

I believe I and others have already given you a sufficient explanation but you will not accept it. I do understand, I've been there. However, this thread is about regeneration before faith which all the other posters agree with besides you. I will supply some more passages later. However, if you disagree with the thread its up to you to prove different, if you cannot, just admit it.

 

[Foghorn]

It does still amaze me I have to admit, man (the flesh) wants to have a small piece of the glory. Unfortunately, many of us are raised believing we have to work for all we get which naturally filters into our spirituality. There are many carnal minded believers. Its like its their real first love.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe I and others have already given you a sufficient explanation but you will not accept it.

There has been no explanation of HOW you believe anything. Please provide your explanation of HOW you come to believe anything, whatever. At this point, you're dodging the question.

I do understand, I've been there.

Where is "there"? And your comment is irrelevant. HOW do you come to believe anything that you've believed. This goes beyond the gospel.

However, this thread is about regeneration before faith which all the other posters agree with besides you.

Got it. Theology by democracy. Right.

I will supply some more passages later. However, if you disagree with the thread its up to you to prove different, if you cannot, just admit it.

I've already done that. Ep[h 2:5 equates being made alive with being saved, and v.8 shows that salvation, therefore regeneration, is [B[]through faith[/B]. So, faith precedes salvation/regeneration.

1 Jn 5:1 indicates that faith and regeneration occur at the same time, given how present participles interact with the main verb. But Eph 2:5 and 8 clearly show which occurs first.

 

[Foghorn]

There has been no explanation of HOW you believe anything.

I don't believe it is me, perhaps your being nearsighted? I dunno.

Please provide your explanation of HOW you come to believe anything, whatever. At this point, you're dodging the question.

I'm not dodging any questions of yours, you just cannot accept the answer.

I tell you what, search the entire bible and I bet you will not find one person who was saved without being born again.

Look at Paul, he was in need of conversion (regeneration) in order to be saved.

Man simply cannot have communication with God in his fallen lost state, man's nature is darkness, evil and hostile towards God. Do you disagree? Would you like some scripture to settle it for you? They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one. Psalm 14:3.

Read Romans 3 also, there is much more but I think you get the point?

So, so far do you agree or disagree with scripture?

Do you agree with this:
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Cor 2:14.

So considering these, how can man have communion with God without regeneration? The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.
6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The Lord abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
7 But as for me, by Your abundant lovingkindness I will enter Your house,
At Your holy temple I will bow in reverence for You. Psalm 5.

Don't you see God's promise to convert (regenerate) all those included in the covenant? “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jer 31.

You seem to preach a gospel which proclaims man can, of his own walk with God, but scripture disagrees with you and teaches just the opposite. God, by regenerating us causes us to be able to walk in His statues. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. Eze 36.

Regeneration is so essential that without it no salvation can be expected.

Regeneration brings about a change of nature in a person which is totally different from a natural knowledge of God.

 

[Hentenza]

Your claim:
Of course regeneration precedes faith, it is an evangelical grace of God and listed as gift of the Holy Spirit.

I asked for Scriptural reference, and you responded:

Eph 2:8 is very simple, but it doesn't support your claim. Nothing there about regeneration preceding faith. And the "it is" refers back to "have been saved", NOT "through faith", as it seems you assume.

Further, consider 2:5 - even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

What is the parenthesis for? To explain "made alive". Iow, to be "made alive", which is regeneration is equated with "have been saved".

And v.8 gives us the clear order; we are saved (regenerated) through faith. The faith precedes the salvation/regeneration.

Lets explore the first few verses of Eph. 2:

3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

We are by nature children of wrath. We cannot change our nature any more that a dog or a cat can change their nature. The change in our nature has to come effected by God. he is the only one that can change our nature.

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

But God made us alive with Christ. We did not make ourselves alive. "Made us" is His work. The verb is passive in relation to us. The action is that of God, not of man. This is regeneration. This is the moment in which our nature, children of wrath, is changed. At this moment, and not a moment before, can we surrender to our maker. At this moment, and not a moment before, can we have faith.

6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Raises us up and seated us. Another two passive verbs; another two actions that are not our own; another two actions which we cannot take credit. These actions are part of the regeneration which to this point is preceding faith. Faith can only happen with God actions on us; with Him regenerating us from a fallen nature, children of wrath.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This explains the above verses. It is a summary. By His grace our nature has been changed by God, we are no longer children of wrath. We did not do this because changing us is not of ourselves but of God. We cannot work for it. These actions that lead to salvation: regeneration which leads to faith, occur because God in His grace has given us this gift. It is His gift; it is His grace; it is not our doing.

 

[Foghorn]

Lets explore the first few verses of Eph. 2:



We are by nature children of wrath. We cannot change our nature any more that a dog or a cat can change their nature. The change in our nature has to come effected by God. he is the only one that can change our nature.



But God made us alive with Christ. We did not make ourselves alive. "Made us" is His work. The verb is passive in relation to us. The action is that of God, not of man. This is regeneration. This is the moment in which our nature, children of wrath, is changed. At this moment, and not a moment before, can we surrender to our maker. At this moment, and not a moment before, can we have faith.



Raises us up and seated us. Another two passive verbs; another two actions that are not our own; another two actions which we cannot take credit. These actions are part of the regeneration which to this point is preceding faith. Faith can only happen with God actions on us; with Him regenerating us from a fallen nature, children of wrath.



This explains the above verses. It is a summary. By His grace our nature has been changed by God, we are no longer children of wrath. We did not do this because changing us is not of ourselves but of God. We cannot work for it. These actions that lead to salvation: regeneration which leads to faith, occur because God in His grace has given us this gift. It is His gift; it is His grace; it is not our doing.

Amen!

I wonder how the gospel has gotten so distorted through the centuries?

Perhaps during the dark ages when there were uneducated and illiterate clergy, therefore Rome's continuing effect of the church? Obviously men with darkened minds........

 

[Foghorn]

This explains the above verses. It is a summary. By His grace our nature has been changed by God, we are no longer children of wrath. We did not do this because changing us is not of ourselves but of God. We cannot work for it. These actions that lead to salvation: regeneration which leads to faith, occur because God in His grace has given us this gift. It is His gift; it is His grace; it is not our doing.

Amen! Glory to God alone!

 

[Foghorn]

Freegrace, I do want to set one thing straight here. So please, I do not want you to get the wrong impression. I am in no way saying you are not a believer, I don't have any doubts that you are and are my brother in Christ. That is not what I am debating at all.

I am just discussing (debating) the order of salvation.

 

[Foghorn]

FreeG, let me try and explain it this way.

Here are some fruits of regeneration, keep in mind regeneration is being (mystically) united to Christ : Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 1 Cor 5:17.

Regeneration affects all aspects (faculties) of the soul.
the,
intellect,
will,
affections,
everything is changed, it is if a dead person rose from the grace back unto life. It's a real supernatural change, as a blind person able to see, or a deaf person able to hear.

Before regeneration, all is the opposite. The intellect is still worldly, the will is not free acceding to spiritual things, but bound by and to the fallen nature unable to help themselves; emotions, feelings are selfish and worldly not desiring God. The blind stay blind, the deaf remain deaf, there is no supernatural change.

You would have it that the dead can believe (have faith), however there is no scripture from cover to cover which agrees with you, you have no scripture support.

God did not raise us up because of some belief, or, faith, but while we were dead and faithless. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), Eph 2.

So how can you say God saves us because of some belief? If we believe we are not dead, but alive. And scripture does not teach we are saved when we are alive.

You see FreeG, God will have mercy on who He will have mercy. It is because of Christ's propitiatory sacrifice, appeasing God's anger towards the elect that God will and does have mercy on the elect.

I am still waiting for you to explain how when one believes God saves them.

Tell me how God saved you because you believed?
Because if that be the case your probably the first person since creation that God saved as a believer.

 

[Foghorn]

Since Paul clearly distinguished between faith and works, your comment is not only irrelevant, but totally off the mark.

No one is saved by works. They are saved by (through) faith

No, they are saved "by" grace.....through faith.

You just missed one word here, "grace." Saved by grace through faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Are you starting to see it now?

 

[Foghorn]

No, they are saved "by" grace.....through faith.

You just missed one word here, "grace." Saved by grace through faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Are you starting to see it now?

Before we were saved, all men, are dead in trespasses and sin and subject to the wrath of God, this is what the scriptures say, therefore it is truth.

Without regeneration, no one can be saved. Scripture says so, therefore it is truth.

Before regeneration all are separated from God, all are not united to Christ and none want to be, it is not desirable. Scripture says so therefore it is truth.

Before regeneration, man is self centered and desires to have his own way indulging in his lusts of the flesh, they neither know God nor want to know Him. They do not even want to think about Him, they do not rest or trust in Him, they do not know of the spiritual life, nor want part of it. They don't care about the law, but rather self interest. Their religion is nothing more than fleshly activities. This is what scripture teaches, therefore it is truth.

And whoever remains unconverted (unregenerate) (see it now?) cannot be saved.

Seriously consider these things. Don't reject them because they are not palatable.

 

[Foghorn]

John 6:63,65 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life... Therefore have I told you that no man can come to me, unless it be given to him by my Father."

Though I would have a couple things stick out for you for clarification.

1) Will man's belief get him saved?
the flesh profiteth nothing

2) Can men come to Christ on their own?
no man can come to me

3) Is regeneration taught in the bible?
unless it be given to him by my Father."

 

[Foghorn]

This is the command Jesus said to the disciples, And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt 4:19.

This command of Jesus, "Follow Me," He still speaks. To the elect.

FreeG, Jesus did not say to His (chosen) disciples, "would you please follow me, and if you do, I will make you fishers of men?

Jesus didn't spend any time wooing them on, persuading them, hoping they would follow Him.

Instead, He said "Follow Me."

Was it personal and by name? Sure, scripture teaches so. Remember the gospels, Peter, John, Andrew fishing? Matthew collecting taxes. etc...etc...

 

[Foghorn]

Since Paul clearly distinguished between faith and works, your comment is not only irrelevant, but totally off the mark.

No one is saved by works. They are saved by (through) faith.

Would you give me your definition of faith? Look in your lexicon, you may be surprised what faith or belief actually mean.

You will see they are not merely words, or words in the form of a profession. Go ahead, look them up and let me know what you think. In both the Hebrew and the Greek, not in our messy language, look and see what the actual meaning is.

 

[stenerson]

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,..."

God in this passage in which He shows Himself makes this part of the declaration of His character. That is His freedom in saving whom He wills and hardening whom He wills.
In other words, if He so willed, instead of hardening Pharoah God was free to soften Pharoah's heart and have mercy on him. The conclusion of the examples given, (Pharoah, Jacob, Esau) was that it has nothing to do with human will or human running (effort, seeking etc) but ultimately up to God that showeth mercy.
This same lump, from which He fits vessels unto destruction, and vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory is the same lump of God-hating humanity.
That lump is described as the "none that seeketh, none righteous, etc."
It's not complicated, scripture is very clear concerning this, brutally clear. I went through most of my life brushing over those texts, scratching my head wondering what they meant, (assuming to myself they couldn't mean what they clearly express.) I mean come on, it didn't seem fair to me, I reasoned why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

 

[FreeGrace2]

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,..."

God in this passage in which He shows Himself makes this part of the declaration of His character. That is His freedom in saving whom He wills and hardening whom He wills.

He has also shown His character as to whom He will have mercy in this statement:

Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
And let him return to the LORD,
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.

In other words, if He so willed, instead of hardening Pharoah God was free to soften Pharoah's heart and have mercy on him. The conclusion of the examples given, (Pharoah, Jacob, Esau) was that it has nothing to do with human will or human running (effort, seeking etc) but ultimately up to God that showeth mercy.

Isaiah understood exactly upon whom He shows mercy.

This same lump, from which He fits vessels unto destruction, and vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory is the same lump of God-hating humanity.

Rom 9:22 doesn't that God "fit" the vessels to destruction. The tense form for 'katartizo' is the same for both middle and passive voice. It is possible these vessels fitted themselves to destruction, which makes perfect sense in light of Isa 55:7.

That lump is described as the "none that seeketh, none righteous, etc."

Iow, they didn't "forsake their way, or thoughts, nor return to the Lord", as Isaiah said. That's why there was no mercy.

It's not complicated, scripture is very clear concerning this, brutally clear. I went through most of my life brushing over those texts, scratching my head wondering what they meant, (assuming to myself they couldn't mean what they clearly express.) I mean come on, it didn't seem fair to me, I reasoned why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

Your question here suggests that God determines who will repent or not. That's unbiblical. People are held accountable because they are able. Not because they are unable.

Being unable means being unaccountable.

You may hold the janitor of a large company accountable for the company going bankrupt, but I wouldn't. Because the janitor wasn't accountable for the bankruptcy.

 

[Foghorn]

Well FreeG, is it fair to say, you cannot prove your position?

 

[stenerson]

Rom 9:22 doesn't that God "fit" the vessels to destruction. The tense form for 'katartizo' is the same for both middle and passive voice. It is possible these vessels fitted themselves to destruction, which makes perfect sense in light of Isa 55:7.

You're not making any sense of the passage.
"20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"

The potter working on the same lump is obviously God. He's the one with power over the clay that's free to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonour. It is not saying "hath not the lump of clay power to make himself unto honor or dishonor." Show a little respect for the text. The "same lump" emphasizes that there is no difference, God makes the difference. The obvious objection that you make or those that despise the truth of God's free sovereign grace, " why do you yet find fault, for who has resisted your will?"

Your question here suggests that God determines who will repent or not. That's unbiblical. People are held accountable because they are able. Not because they are unable.

That wasn't my question. It was the question of the lump of clay shaking his fist at God.

Being unable means being unaccountable.

From the carnal perspective. Scripture clearly says we (humanity) is unwilling and unable. But God.....

You may hold the janitor of a large company accountable for the company going bankrupt, but I wouldn't. Because the janitor wasn't accountable for the bankruptcy.

The Janitor is only accountable for his personal sins.