Israel-Hamas Thread II

[JosephZ]

I expect Israel will take out Iran's nuclear weapons capability.

I agree.

 

[rjs330]

You are confusing purpose with individual missions, tasks, and means. The purpose of an army is to serve and protect the citizens of the state and to defend the state from both domestic and foreign enemies.

As I said that's demonstrably false. How many armies have been used to attack people to conquer them and not to protect and defend? No it's purpose is to kill people and break things during a time of war. That's it's purpose as it's core.

And sometimes it's to conduct rescue operations and provide natural disaster relief, medical assistance in impoverished areas, food and humanitarian relief, security at embassies and other locations, policing in volatile areas, and helping to rebuild after conflict and natural and manmade disasters. All of these examples of tasks and missions of a military go towards its purpose to serve and protect the citizens of the state and elsewhere while also maintaining peace and stability at home and abroad.

We use the military for that, but we don't need a military for that. That's not it's purpose. If we were a country without a military we could do all those things without one. What you can't do without one is wage war. Kill people and break things.

The pupose of NATO is to guarantee the freedom and security of its members. This is done by various means with the use of military force being only one of many.

Without the threat of the use of force from a military NATO would be helpless to guarantee the freedom and security of its members. Look I'm not going to keep going round and round with you on this. The fact you don't understand this is mind boggling.

Without a military you can't protect your country and without a military you can't take over another country who has one and will use it. This the military's purpose. Just because that's the purpose of the military doesn't mean you have to use it. But it's there. Can it be used for other things. Sure, but you don't need it for those other things.

This may come as a suprise to you, but not all of the land promised was given to the Jews, only a small portion was.

Look I was broadly speaking here. I'm not lying to break it down tribe by tribe Mike by mile. I'm trying to make a broader point here. If want to get very picky and in the weeds fine. But that won't alter the point that God gave the "Jews" the land period. Even your map shows this. I'm not going break down the tribes or go into the history of the separation etc etc. The point was God gave Abraham and his descendants from Isaac down land in perpetuity. That's it. And they had it until they lost it to other kingdoms and empires. The Palestinians never were a kingdom and empire that controlled and governed it.

 

[rjs330]

How would someone be in an example? The point you avoid is that whether or not a criminal was hiding under a city, you may not blow up the people, starve them, and stop health care, etc. You either stay home or go in and find the criminal.

We aren't talking about criminals or the criminal justice system.

Says you. A war means both sides have armies and weapons. The women and children and population they are punishing have nothing. Remember, Hamas probably also claims their terrorism is war.

Hamas has an army. What do mean says me? Civilians have always been in the middle of wars. Did you think wars never affected civilians. Tell that to the Ukranians right now. Tell that to the French, English and Germans.

Babies and women did not war with Israel.

Well babies never fight in wars. But women do. And women have often been supporters of those who are fighting, giving comfort and aid if they aren't fighting.

Sure, a newborn baby should have written up all the benefits of crawling to Israel and attacking someone. Right. The women shopping should have exchanged their grocery lists for war plans where all the women take their babies and children and throw rotten tomatoes over the barbed wire fence etc. Not realistic, and more blaming the victims. It reminds me of WW2 Germany.

That's just silly. When you attack another nation you should consider the ramifications of such an act. Somebody attacked Israel and somebody has been attacking Israel for decades. Sometimes using women and children to do so. That somebody should be thinking about the consequences for that and not just for themselves.

a prisoner finally decides to try an escape before they die, knowing what happens if they are caught, that does not make them 'stupid' so much as desperate. Almost all the people murdered and starved are not the 'they' who attacked Israel anyhow, obviously.

Not buying this. They've had at least 60 years to do something different and haven't. You have no idea who all has been "starved" or murdered. I'm sure there have been "murders". Always is in war. That's why you don't do something so stupid. They weren't prisoners. I've had this argument before. Not going to do it again. They had 60+ years to do something else and didn't.

They" are not the people who are being punished collectively. The 'they' who attacked were killed the same day, and the rest of them vanished and could not be targeted, so they targeted babies instead, and civilians. Real brave.

They are the ones who supported Hamas and supported Hamas killing the Jews. They are the ones who are teaching those poor innocent children to hate aand kill the Jews.
The Palestinians are not innocent. And when the adults do things the children either reap rewards or reap consequences. It's always been this way.

 

[truthpls]

We aren't talking about criminals or the criminal justice system.

We are talking about punishing a whole population for the crimes of a few

Hamas has an army. What do mean says me?

Armies are things that one can detect usually. (as opposed to slaughtering and starving a population because some criminals you call an army are hiding somewhere like rats. When there is no army to fight, and you starve and kill children instead, using the world army is not right. Criminals gets the idea across better. Criminals in hiding that are armed.

Civilians have always been in the middle of wars. Did you think wars never affected civilians. Tell that to the Ukranians right now. Tell that to the French, English and Germans.

Yes, they were a big part of Nazi Germany. They took lots of civilians. As for Ukraine, the people keeping that lost cause going are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of men, and now women as well. We can see the sort of character of the people that hate Russia on display a few weeks ago when an operation was conducted against civilians at a concert. That is the sort of scum running these wars.

Well babies never fight in wars. But women do. And women have often been supporters of those who are fighting, giving comfort and aid if they aren't fighting.

The women and children who compose the majority of deaths in Gaza were more like prisoners than investors in terrorists.

That's just silly. When you attack another nation you should consider the ramifications of such an act.

WE might say the same of those attacking the population in Gaza

Somebody attacked Israel and somebody has been attacking Israel for decades.

And Israel plunked itself down in the middle of people that it proceeded to steal from, kill and offend. Then they cry about how their neighbors are fed up?

Sometimes using women and children to do so.

Bank robbers sometimes take hostages. Terrorists will be terrorists.

That somebody should be thinking about the consequences for that and not just for themselves.

In other words they should have realized Israel would terrorize, starve and mass murder a population if some terrorists also living there attacked their jailers?

Not buying this. They've had at least 60 years to do something different and haven't.

They were kept down it seems to me. Then you blame them for being down?

You have no idea who all has been "starved" or murdered.

Yes, we have a great idea. Women and children and old folks etc etc. The population at large. What are you insinuating, that there may have been some members of Hamas hiding in there somewhere so that justifies it?

I'm sure there have been "murders". Always is in war.

Battles. Now wholesale attacks on children and women usually. That sort of thing would have usually been a byproduct rather than the main event!

That's why you don't do something so stupid. They weren't prisoners. I've had this argument before. Not going to do it again. They had 60+ years to do something else and didn't.

The barbed wire and restrictive rules scream otherwise. No possible argument to have.

They are the ones who supported Hamas and supported Hamas killing the Jews.

Says you. Ever consider that Israel is not well liked in populations who lost lands and sons and daughters and houses and freedom etc etc? You do not get to say that because there is deep resentment, fear and loathing of the occupiers, that all people deserve to be bombed, starved, and terrorized

They are the ones who are teaching those poor innocent children to hate and kill the Jews.

Many people, including in Canada and the US teach all sorts of filth and evil to children. They teach hatred of God and creation and the bible etc.

The Palestinians are not innocent.

Who is?

And when the adults do things the children either reap rewards or reap consequences. It's always been this way.

That can be said of the whole world. But it does not mean some hate filled well armed military should kill us all!

 

[JosephZ]

How many armies have been used to attack people to conquer them and not to protect and defend?

I'm not sure, but using an army to attack people and conquer them is a war crime.

It's purpose to kill people and break things until your enemy surrenders or us utterly destroyed.

it's purpose is to kill people and break things during a time of war. That's it's purpose as it's core.

If someone went to the recruiting office of any branch of the US military and was asked by the recruiter what the purpose of the military was, and they responded with "kill people, and break things," or when asked why they wanted to join the military and they responded with the same, they would not be allowed to join. Do you know why they wouldn't be allowed to join? It's because that's not the purpose of the military, and the US military doesn't want people with that mindset among its ranks.

God gave the "Jews" the land period. Even your map shows this... The point was God gave Abraham and his descendants from Isaac down land in perpetuity.

Jews were decendants of Abraham and Isaac, but not all the decendants of Abraham and Isaac were Jews. In fact, most of their descendants were not Jews, and as the map I shared clearly shows, only a small fraction of the land promised was given to the Jews. Therefore, Jews today cannot use religious grounds to claim that the land formally known as Mandatory Palestine belongs to them because of God's covenant with Abraham.

 

[rjs330]

We are talking about punishing a whole population for the crimes of a few

That's why I said that people need to consid r the consequences of their actions when committing an act of war upon a neighboring country. Because war affects everyone, not just the governing power and the individual soldiers. All are affected and when you do something like that you have no room to complain when the enemy brings the war home. War is tragic, brutal, destructive and did I say brutal? And we all should recoil when we see it occurring. But we also should have some sense of acknowledgement that when you start a war you are asking for tragedy, destructiveness and brutality because that's what it is. There's no such thing as a nice war.

Now if both armies lines up in a field and went at it, then it would sav a lot of tragedy. But armies don't do that. And Hamas knows it would be wiped out in an instant. So they went to war thins way with the full knowledge of what was going to happen. And you notice they haven't stopped. It tells you they dont care. Well, welcome to the real world.

Armies are things that one can detect usually. (as opposed to slaughtering and starving a population because some criminals you call an army are hiding somewhere like rats. When there is no army to fight, and you starve and kill children instead, using the world army is not right. Criminals gets the idea across better. Criminals in hiding that are armed.

I'm sorry but I don't accept your assertions. And they are an army not just bank robbers.

 

[rjs330]

That can be said of the whole world. But it does not mean some hate filled well armed military should kill us all!

The only group that's hate filled here is the Palestinians, I including Hamas. Hamas of course being the greater culprit. But the Palestinians voted for them, supported them and filled their schools and children full of hate and vileness towards the Jews.

 

[rjs330]

I'm not sure, but using an army to attack people and conquer them is a war crime.

That's has nothing to do with what I said.

someone went to the recruiting office of any branch of the US military and was asked by the recruiter what the purpose of the military was, and they responded with "kill people, and break things," or when asked why they wanted to join the military and they responded with the same, they would not be allowed to join. Do you know why they wouldn't be allowed to join? It's because that's not the purpose of the military, and the US military doesn't want people with that mindset among its ranks.

What's funny is that after you are recruited the first things you learn are to kill people and break things. The rest of it is all fluff to try and get people to join us so they can learn to kill people and break things. If they were absolutely honest about it no one would join. It's a psychology game. It's the manipulation of the mind.

Jews were decendants of Abraham and Isaac, but not all the decendants of Abraham and Isaac were Jews. In fact, most of their descendants were not Jews, and as the map I shared clearly shows, only a small fraction of the land promised was given to the Jews. Therefore, Jews today cannot use religious grounds to claim that the land formally known as Mandatory Palestine belongs to them because of God's covenant with Abraham.

I think we already discussed this, but in case you missed it, I using the word as a generic term here.

Bottom line, the Palestinians are not part of the Abraham covenant for the land that was given to Abraham and his some Issac and that line. That's it. I've already quoted you the scriptures for it. It's pretty specific.

I will give you and your descendants after you the land in which you are now foreigners, all the land of Kena‘an, as a permanent possession; and I will be their God.” God answered, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you are to call him Yitz’chak [laughter]. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. But as for Yishma‘el, I have heard you. I have blessed him. I will make him fruitful and give him many descendants. He will father twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But I will establish my covenant with Yitz’chak, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year.” With that, God finished speaking with Avraham and went up from him.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passag....19,Gen.17.20,Gen.17.21,Gen.17.22&version=CJB

It was for Isaac and his descendants only. No one else. None of Abraham's sons from other women were part of it. The land of Canan promised is what Israel [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es currently for the most part. They don't have it all and have some that was not part of it, but they have quite a bit that was given to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and no other sons from any other line. That includes the Palestinians.

 

[truthpls]

That's why I said that people need to consid r the consequences of their actions when committing an act of war upon a neighboring country.

The people who need to consider it are the ones doing the crime. Children are too young to consider that sort of thing. Women are too busy probably. Old folks are probably not focused on what Israel would do if some of their young men dared attack Israel. The actual criminals who committed terrorism probably did think about it, and decided to do it anyhow.

Because war affects everyone, not just the governing power and the individual soldiers.

So does terrorism. Genocide. Mass starvation etc

All are affected and when you do something like that you have no room to complain when the enemy brings the war home.

The children did nothing. The ones who did do something are not the ones we are worried about here. The civilians did nothing in the way of war or bringing bombs to their homes.

War is tragic, brutal, destructive and did I say brutal? And we all should recoil when we see it occurring. But we also should have some sense of acknowledgement that when you start a war you are asking for tragedy, destructiveness and brutality because that's what it is. There's no such thing as a nice war.

Many people find it offensive to call starving and mass murdering a civilian population war. You might as well say the Manson gang were just at war.

Now if both armies lines up in a field and went at it, then it would sav a lot of tragedy. But armies don't do that.

? Yes armies do that.

And Hamas knows it would be wiped out in an instant.

Just like a bank robber knows that when the cops show up they better scoot.

So they went to war thins way with the full knowledge of what was going to happen.

Who cares what insane desperate criminal terrorists thought or 'knew'? The innocent children and women and civilians were just living their lives.

And you notice they haven't stopped. It tells you they dont care. Well, welcome to the real world.

No one cares if the terrorist's 'care'. The people care when they are starving and their homes were destroyed and many of the children and families they knew were mercilessly killed.

I'm sorry but I don't accept your assertions. And they are an army not just bank robbers.

They being the ones who attacked civilians and then fled. So how do you root them out? The answer was not to commit terror yourself. The root causes of the problem needed to be addressed. The occupation, the restrictions, etc etc etc.

 

[truthpls]

I agree.

Or try

 

[truthpls]

The only group that's hate filled here is the Palestinians,

Actions speak louder than words. The treatment of people in Gaza was extremely hateful. Like Jesus said, they have not the love of God in them.
"But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you" John 5:42

I including Hamas. Hamas of course being the greater culprit. But the Palestinians voted for them, supported them and filled their schools and children full of hate and vileness towards the Jews.

You thought you could starve people to death, cut off their medical supplies, destroy their cities and camps and terrorize and mass murder them because of their vote? That argument is false. Besides, the bombs that destroyed block after block of apartments and etc were not dropped only on people who voted a certain way! They killed Christians. They killed people too young or sick to vote at all. They killed people who voted against Hamas!

 

[JosephZ]

That's has nothing to do with what I said.

Actually, it does. I said that the purpose of an army is to serve and protect the citizens of the state and to defend the state from both domestic and foreign enemies, and you replied that this was demonstrably false and asked how many armies have been used to attack people to conquer them and not to protect and defend?

You have been claiming that the purpose of an army is to wage war, kill people, and break things. The armies that have waged war, killed people, and broken things for the sole purpose of conquering them would be illegitimate, because that would be a war crime, and that is not the purpose of a state having a military.

What's funny is that after you are recruited the first things you learn are to kill people and break things.

Killing people and breaking things is not one of the first things learned after being recruited. The first few weeks of training, with the exception of fitness training, are spent mainly inside a classroom learning about military history, traditions, values, ethics, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the fundamentals of being a soldier and being a part of a team. Depending on the branch of the military, it will be 3–5 weeks before a recruit will even start firearms and combat training. After basic training, since most jobs in the military are non-combat-related, most days for the next few to several months, depending on the Military Occupational Specialty, are spent in a classroom setting or in the field training on any equipment that may be used in the soldier's MOS. Soldiers with combat-related specialties will, of course, receive extensive training in combat and combat tactics, but they make up only around 1/3 of the military's personnel.

The rest of it is all fluff to try and get people to join us so they can learn to kill people and break things. If they were absolutely honest about it no one would join.

Non-combat jobs such as logistics, communications, medical, support, maintenance, and administration make up the majority of the positions in the military, and many people join the military to gain experience in these fields. With the exception of a few weeks during basic training where they learn combat skills, that's the extent of their experience in that department. Non-combat jobs and the training required for them are not "fluff" and are at the foundation of a functioning military.

The Palestinians are not part of the Abraham covenant for the land that was given to Abraham and his son Issac and that line. That's it.

Palestinian Christians have maintained a continuous presence in Palestine since the first century, and many of the Christians in the first century would have been Jews and Israelites who converted to Christianity and would be lineal descendants of Isaac. There would also be non-Christian and non-Jewish Palestinians who would also be able to trace their lineage to the Kingdom of Israel and who would be decendants of Isaac. There is no Biblical or historical support for giving all of the land within the borders of what was once Mandatory Palestine to the Jews.

 

[rjs330]

You have been claiming that the purpose of an army is to wage war, kill people, and break things. The armies that have waged war, killed people, and broken things for the sole purpose of conquering them would be illegitimate, because that would be a war crime, and that is not the purpose of a state having a military.

No that's what YOU think. The state decides what they do with a military. The military is there. It's purpose is to kill people and break things. The state decides if it's to conquer or defend. The military in and of itself just is. That's it's purpose.

Killing people and breaking things is not one of the first things learned after being recruited. The first few weeks of training, with the exception of fitness training, are spent mainly inside a classroom learning about military history, traditions, values, ethics, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the fundamentals of being a soldier and being a part of a team. Depending on the branch of the military, it will be 3–5 weeks before a recruit will even start firearms and combat training. After basic training, since most jobs in the military are non-combat-related, most days for the next few to several months, depending on the Military Occupational Specialty, are spent in a classroom setting or in the field training on any equipment that may be used in the soldier's MOS. Soldiers with combat-related specialties will, of course, receive extensive training in combat and combat tactics, but they make up only around 1/3 of the military's personnel.

And every single one of those things guides you down the path towards killing people and breaking things. Mechanics fix the machines and instruments of war that kill people and break things. Cooks feed the men who fix the things that kill people and break things. Everyone of those non-combat jobs goes towards the support of the militaries purpose of killing people and breaking things. If the military wasn't there for that we have no need for the military. We wouldn't need cooks or mechanics or pilots or quartermasters or any of the military industrial complex. It could all go away and any other things the military is used for could be done by something else. One thing something else can't to is kill people and break things war like the military. Yes they teach the soldiers all those things because they want good soldiers. The military has a proud history and our military has a strong sense of values as opposed to other countries. And we know that a soldier does much better on a battlefield killing people and breaking things if they know and feel they are part of a team. They do better when they feel their job is important to their team.

Mechanics fix tanks so they can kill people and blow stuff up. They fix trucks that hauled sullies that's ultimately need to help others fix the tanks that are for killing people and blowing stuff up.

 

[Philip_B]

There would also be non-Christian and non-Jewish Palestinians who would also be able to trace their lineage to the Kingdom of Israel and who would be decendants of Isaac. There is no Biblical or historical support for giving all of the land within the borders of what was once Mandatory Palestine to the Jews.

That should probably be read solely and exclusively without regard for the poor, the widow and the orphan.

‘A wandering Aramean was my ancestor; he went down into Egypt and lived there as an alien, few in number, and there he became a great nation, mighty and populous.

 

[JosephZ]

No that's what YOU think. The state decides what they do with a military. The military is there. It's purpose is to kill people and break things. The state decides if it's to conquer or defend. The military in and of itself just is. That's it's purpose.

If a state decides it wants to use its military to conquer another, that's a war crime. A military's purpose is not to commit war crimes.

Under customary international law and the Charter of the United Nations, the use of force is prohibited with two generally accepted exceptions. First, the United Nations Security Council may authorize the use force to maintain and restore peace and security. Under the collective security system set up by Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, the Security Council is to take measures in case of a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression. Such measures include the authorization of military action. Second, states may use force when acting in self-defence against an armed attack.

Use of force | Rulac

The prohibition of the use of force in international law

www.rulac.org

The crime of aggression: is the use of armed force by a State against the sovereignty, integrity or independence of another State.

The act of aggression means "the use of armed force by a State against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of another State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Charter of the United Nations."

These acts can include, among others, invasion, military occupation, and annexation by the use of force, blockade by the ports or coasts.

https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Elements-of-Crimes.pdf

https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Rome-Statute.pdf

And every single one of those things guides you down the path towards killing people and breaking things...

Actually, it does the opposite. If a recruit initially believed that the purpose of the military was to wage war, kill people, and break things, they soon learn during their training that the true purpose of the military is to serve and protect the citizens of the state and to defend the state from both domestic and foreign enemies, and that the means of waging war or using lethal force are only used as a last resort when all other means of avoiding conflict have failed.

they teach the soldiers all those things because they want good soldiers.

This is true, and good soldiers are disciplined and have the ability to show restraint while upholding the values of their military branch. Good soldiers don't want to wage war, kill people, and break things; they want to protect the interests of the nation and keep others safe.

 

[rjs330]

If a state decides it wants to use its military to conquer another, that's a war crime. A military's purpose is not to commit war crimes.

I don't disagree that it's a war crime according to international law. The state decides to use the military to kill people and break things in violation of inter national law. But it did use the military's purpose in doing so.

Actually, it does the opposite. If a recruit initially believed that the purpose of the military was to wage war, kill people, and break things, they soon learn during their training that the true purpose of the military is to serve and protect the citizens of the state and to defend the state from both domestic and foreign enemies, and that the means of waging war or using lethal force are only used as a last resort when all other means of avoiding conflict have failed.

And that's when the military's purpose is used. To kill people and break things. That's why it should be used as a last resort because onc unleashed the military does exactly what it's supposed to do.

Any way I tire if this conversation. Maybe after a time of thinking about this you'll realize I'm correct. Once we understand it's purpose the real question is when SHOULD we use it? Because we understand it's purpose, I think we would agree that it should only be used in this way, to kill people and break things, in defense of the citizens of a country from another army that seeks to kill them.

And we can also find other things for them to do in the meantime. I mean why not use them to help in disasters etc. The have a lot of equipment and organizational expertise and people. It would be a shame to have all that an leave it just sitting around waiting to go to war.

 

[JosephZ]

And that's when the military's purpose is used.

Using force is a means, not a purpose.

That's why it should be used as a last resort because once unleashed the military does exactly what it's supposed to do.

The military is supposed to deter war and ensure the state's security.

Maybe after a time of thinking about this you'll realize I'm correct.

Maybe this will help.

means: an action or system by which a result is brought about; a method.

Our military will use all means at its disposal in its fight against terrorism.


purpose: the reason for which something is created or for which something exists.

The purpose of the military is to serve and protect the citizens of the state and to defend the state from both domestic and foreign enemies.

I think we would agree that it should only be used in this way, to kill people and break things, in defense of the citizens of a country from another army that seeks to kill them.

This is the only legal position the state military can take. Under international law, the use of force is only allowed in acts of self-defense or to maintain and restore peace and security. So I will partially agree with your above statement since there are methods and resources available besides "killing people and breaking things" that can be used to defeat a hostile army or achieve peace and security. Of course, in a situation where an armed attack by another army has already occurred, the use of force would be the most appropriate means to deal with that situation.

 

[JosephZ]

The Israeli military renewed warnings Monday for Palestinians not to return to northern Gaza, a day after witnesses and medical officials said Israeli troops opened fire and killed five people among throngs of displaced residents trying to walk back to their homes in the devastated area.

Israel, which has reduced the number of its troops across Gaza, has repeatedly rejected calls to let Palestinians back to the north, saying Hamas militants continue to operate there.

Several witnesses said Israeli troops opened fire as the crowds neared checkpoints at Wadi Gaza, the line that the military has drawn separating northern Gaza from the rest of the territory. Five people were killed and 54 wounded, according to officials at nearby Awda Hospital in central Gaza, where the casualties were brought.

Six months of fighting in Gaza have pushed the tiny Palestinian territory into a humanitarian crisis, leaving more than 1 million people on the brink of starvation.

Israel says it has killed over 12,000 militants during the war, but it has not provided evidence to back up the claim.

Israeli military warns Palestinians against return to north Gaza as conflict worsens

Many Palestinians have wanted to go back, saying they are sick of the conditions of their lives in displacement.

fox17.com

 

[Valletta]

Or try

I don't believe Israel will wait until Iran has perfected a delivery system for nuclear weapons.

 

[truthpls]

I don't believe Israel will wait until Iran has perfected a delivery system for nuclear weapons.

It seems they got a lot of missiles and stuff there just yesterday. I guess Israel isn't the only one with rocket science.