Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[BCP1928]

That is why I wanted to include anthropology, sociology and psychology and not just from a theological position as to how societies are ordered, how they become disordered in practical ways.

How belief and not any specific belief but how ideology plays an important role in however we choose to see the world will inevitably lead to our downfall or thriving.

I like Petersons lectures on this. He has a way of breaking down and explaining the psychology behind how societies breakdown and then relating this to the bible and Christs teachings.

I watched a few minutes--as much of Jordan Peterson as I can take in one sitting. He was talking about how totalitarian regimes want to impose uniformity of identity on their subjects. I'm not sure why you think that supports the Christian goal of forcing a uniform sexual identity on everyone. Or are you trying to justify a Christian totalitarian regime to accomplish it?

 

[stevevw]

I watched a few minutes--as much of Jordan Peterson as I can take in one sitting. He was talking about how totalitarian regimes want to impose uniformity of identity on their subjects. I'm not sure why you think that supports the Christian goal of forcing a uniform sexual identity on everyone. Or are you trying to justify a Christian totalitarian regime to accomplish it?

No it had nothing to do with Christianity. It was more a sociological and psychological explanation for how societies can become Totalitarian. How it starts out in small ways and builds and people do realise or are too scared to speak out as what is happening in todays society for fear of saying the wrong thing and being cancelled.

An ideology is imposed in the name of 'what is best' for society or protection according to the ideologues in charge. I think Covid played a big part in fast tracking what was already brewing with Marxist ideas. This allowed the State to bring in emergency laws and restrictions and I think most have just accepted this kind of rule ever since.

The governments have built on those restrictions by implementing more laws and policies that basically reduce freedoms such as speach laws and arbitrary National emergency provisions in the name of protections such as hate speech laws where anyone cen be arrested, jailed or lose their job for saying the wrong thing on social media.

Or like freezing peoples bank accounts if they engage in behaviour the State believes is unlawful. Which could mean anything according to the discretion of the State. Or secretly monitoring certain groups including religious groups suspected of misbehaviour.

When we give up our rights as individuals to privacy and undermine the family then the State steps in and takes over in the form of the Welfare State and dictates how we should live our private lives as well.

 

[BCP1928]

No it had nothing to do with Christianity. It was more a sociological and psychological explanation for how societies can become Totalitarian. How it starts out in small ways and builds and people do realise or are too scared to speak out as what is happening in todays society for fear of saying the wrong thing and being cancelled.

Yes, and you have frequently made the assertion that individuals deciding on their own identities is leading to the collapse of civilization and you advocate for imposing a single identity on everyone.

An ideology is imposed in the name of 'what is best' for society or protection according to the ideologues in charge.

And you advocate imposing the Christian ideology as being best for society. OK.

I think Covid played a big part in fast tracking what was already brewing with Marxist ideas. This allowed the State to bring in emergency laws and restrictions and I think most have just accepted this kind of rule ever since.

The governments have built on those restrictions by implementing more laws and policies that basically reduce freedoms such as speach laws and arbitrary National emergency provisions in the name of protections such as hate speech laws where anyone cen be arrested and jailed for saying the wrong thing on social media.

Or like freezing peoples bank accounts if they engage in behaviour the State believes is unlawful. Which could mean anything according to the discretion of the State.

Is that really happening down there in Oz?

 

[stevevw]

Yes, and you have frequently made the assertion that individuals deciding on their own identities is leading to the collapse of civilization and you advocate for imposing a single identity on everyone.

When have I said this. Thats your reading of things not mine. I have been critical of identity politics but that is not eliminating identity. Its making identity the new reality over all else including objective reality is what most people are objecting to. When identity trumps reality, lived reality it becomes a problem as we have seen in society.

That seems fair enough because it causes conflict between someone who makes their identity reality and when another doesn't. Identity is different to a shared identity as far as a culture, nation or even human race. It is this identity that we need to cultivate and re-establish as it has been lost to individual subjective identity.

Individual and groups identity cannot be the basis for a united society because well its subjective and each person and group will have their own identity and truth and its inevitable that those identitys will conflict because they see the world differently.

Usually whatever united a society is something beyond the society that everyone looks to and upholds. It has to be beyond the society or culture because otherwise it falls back on socially constructed ideas about subjective identity and ideologies for which people won't ever agree on. It use to be people may have identified as American or British or Chinese and these had a fairly defined identity. China still does as it is a communist country.

And you advocate imposing the Christian ideology as being best for society. OK.

Of course but I don't force it on anyone. That should be a given as a right, a freedom in a democracy I would think. Just like someone else can express what they believe is best according to their worldview.

But any belief should be tempered with rationalisty, reality as this is well an objective fact of our lived experience. Belief doesn't suddenly make a person devoid of rationality. Rationality and aligning belief with reality go hand in hand. It also prevent society from allowing ideological beliefs to take over.

Is that really happening down there in Oz?

Not so much in Oz. I was speaking more of the more 'progressive' nation of Canada lol. Australia is usually a couple of years behind with all that stuff as we are a bit more isolated.

But we have our share of State interference such as speech laws. People can be arrested or lose their jobs for saying the wrong thing. I think Oz was judged as having the most stringent covid restrictions which we later found out many were falsely applied. Since then the government has enforced other measures in the name of safety and protection. Seems covid opened the law for a more restrictive form of government.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I like Petersons lectures on this. He has a way of breaking down and explaining the psychology behind how societies breakdown and then relating this to the bible and Christs teachings.

Could you elaborate on this? (I know, I'm sorry everyone else). What is a synopsis of Peterson's hypothesis? What I got from a fast skim of his video was that totalitarians like order and orderliness and are disgusted by disorder. Does that seem a fair description?

Peterson had been preaching to young men to be more orderly. Is he priming them for totalitarianism, or did he not consider the consequences of his advice?

Cheers,

(Keeping my bed unmade to prevent fascism.)

 

[BCP1928]

When have I said this. Thats your reading of things not mine. I have been critical of identity politics but that is not eliminating identity. Its making identity the new reality over all else including objective reality is what most people are objecting to. When identity trumps reality, lived reality it becomes a problem as we have seen in society.

How does identity trump reality?

That seems fair enough because it causes conflict between someone who makes their identity reality and when another doesn't. Identity is different to a shared identity as far as a culture, nation or even human race. It is this identity that we need to cultivate and re-establish as it has been lost to individual subjective identity.

I can imagine identities which would be incompatible with our shared culture, nation or our humanity (A person might identify as a Martian, for instance) but I haven't met anyone who identified as a Martian in real life. If I did, I'm not quite sure of how it would "trump my reality."

Individual and groups identity cannot be the basis for a united society because well its subjective and each person and group will have their own identity and truth and its inevitable that those identities will conflict because they see the world differently.

Usually whatever united a society is something beyond the society that everyone looks to and upholds. It has to be beyond the society or culture because otherwise it falls back on socially constructed ideas about subjective identity and ideologies for which people won't ever agree on.

Culture itself is a socially constructed idea.

It use to be people may have identified as American or British or Chinese and these had a fairly defined identity. China still does as it is a communist country.

They still do. Even American LGBT people identify as Americans and participants in American culture.

Of course but I don't force it on anyone. That should be a given as a right, a freedom in a democracy I would think. Just like someone else can express what they believe is best according to their worldview.

But any belief should be tempered with rationalisty, reality as this is well an objective fact of our lived experience. Belief doesn't suddenly make a person devoid of rationality. Rationality and aligning belief with reality go hand in hand. It also prevent society from allowing ideological beliefs to take over.

Not so much in Oz. I was speaking more of the more 'progressive' nation of Canada lol. Australia is usually a couple of years behind with all that stuff as we are a bit more isolated.

But we have our share of State interference such as speech laws. People can be arrested or lose their jobs for saying the wrong thing. I think Oz was judged as having the most stringent covid restrictions which we later found out many were falsely applied. Since then the government has enforced other measures in the name of safety and protection. Seems covid opened the law for a more restrictive form of government.

Or maybe we are just less tolerant of religion being used as an excuse to say hateful things.

 

[Hans Blaster]

OK, now it's your turn...

Right. But hammering atheists with Biblical tropes isn't going to turn them away, especially when most of them are Ex-Christians who are apparently responding to dogmatic, unloving, dysfunctional "Christian churches" that can't handle really deep issues regarding both epistemology, psychological trauma, and the frayed edges of some idea we all like to call "the Truth."

Did you leave off a question mark in your big sentence? It seems like you are questioning Steve's tactics. If so feel free to ignore the rest of this. If it is not a questioning...

Yes, there are some ex-Christians that left because of problems with unloving churches. That often stems from an overemphasis on the very narrow set of moral issues that have been repeatedly expounded upon here. I really don't know any ex-Christians in person or on this board that fall into that category. Our real reasons for leaving can't be countered by "fixing" any churches or their teachings about "the Truth". Every such person I know who left the church, to the extent that I know, do so as I did -- because we no longer believed, no longer found the claims of Christianity to be true or plausible. It wasn't about trauma or "love".

Finally, about the "Biblical tropes", they absolutely are a turn off. The best way to get me to ignore, disregard, or disengage from an argument is to wrap it in biblical quotes and invocation of doctrine. Such things are not meaningful to us or useful as evidence depending on the case. I was never interested in biblical tropes and they were always a "turn off".

 

[2PhiloVoid]

OK, now it's your turn...

Did you leave off a question mark in your big sentence? It seems like you are questioning Steve's tactics. If so feel free to ignore the rest of this. If it is not a questioning...

No, I was making a statement to Steve. So, despite the various grammatical, syntactical and punctuation errors I not infrequently make, I didn't leave off a question mark.

Yes, there are some ex-Christians that left because of problems with unloving churches. That often stems from an overemphasis on the very narrow set of moral issues that have been repeatedly expounded upon here. I really don't know any ex-Christians in person or on this board that fall into that category. Our real reasons for leaving can't be countered by "fixing" any churches or their teachings about "the Truth". Every such person I know who left the church, to the extent that I know, do so as I did -- because we no longer believed, no longer found the claims of Christianity to be true or plausible. It wasn't about trauma or "love".

Finally, about the "Biblical tropes", they absolutely are a turn off. The best way to get me to ignore, disregard, or disengage from an argument is to wrap it in biblical quotes and invocation of doctrine. Such things are not meaningful to us or useful as evidence depending on the case. I was never interested in biblical tropes and they were always a "turn off".

I appreciate that you have your own reasons for letting go of the Christian Faith, Hans, but I've talked to, and read, a lot of atheists who are Ex-Christians, and there are likely a lot of Ex-Christians, of whatever kinds, who left for the fact that they weren't acknowledged, treated well, understood, claim they experienced trauma from Christian Doctrines, as well as the usual one that they left Christianity behind because of homophobia and other, similar, issues.

But I hear what you're saying. Your case is a bit different, and I get that.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I appreciate that you have your own reasons for letting go of the Christian Faith, Hans, but I've talked to, and read, a lot of atheists who are Ex-Christians, and there are likely a lot of Ex-Christians, of whatever kinds, who left for the fact that they weren't acknowledged, treated well, understood, claim they experienced trauma from Christian Doctrines, as well as the usual one that they left Christianity behind because of homophobia and other, similar, issues.

Ahh, millenials. It does seem that the anti-gay stance of the church does lead a lot of the younger ones to disconnect from the church. Even if that is the triggering event for non-belief, it doesn't mean they didn't stop believing or that "scripture" is what they need to hear to come back.

But I hear what you're saying. Your case is a bit different, and I get that.

The comment was about "atheists" and we're not just those who have dropped the religious label or participation. We don't believe in the god claims at all. Many of the "nones" have god beliefs and those are often quite Christian derived. Being "spiritual but not religious" because you find the organized church to be hateful isn't the same as not believing in a god. Those of us here on CF that use the label "atheist" (and frankly most using "agnostic") are more like me than the typical "none". Your scriptural "Jedi mind tricks" don't work on us.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ahh, millenials. It does seem that the anti-gay stance of the church does lead a lot of the younger ones to disconnect from the church. Even if that is the triggering event for non-belief, it doesn't mean they didn't stop believing or that "scripture" is what they need to hear to come back.

I wasn't precisely referencing the Millennials, even though what I was saying surely applies to them in good number.

The comment was about "atheists" and we're not just those who have dropped the religious label or participation. We don't believe in the god claims at all. Many of the "nones" have god beliefs and those are often quite Christian derived. Being "spiritual but not religious" because you find the organized church to be hateful isn't the same as not believing in a god. Those of us here on CF that use the label "atheist" (and frankly most using "agnostic") are more like me than the typical "none". Your scriptural "Jedi mind tricks" don't work on us.

Yes, I know. I've read plenty of 19th and 20th century Atheism----it was a central part of Logical Positivism. I think you're underestimating all that I've read and digested when I make comments applied to Ex-Christians/Atheists. For me, today's atheism, in all it's varieties, is the outcome of ongoing historical developments that have been taking place with the onset of the Enlightenment, not simply a 21st century social amplification set off by 9/11 or the current surge of left politics.

Anyway, again, I hear what you're saying. I was attempting to to suggest to Steve that making a display of theories regarding the fall of empires isn't going to convince anyone of much of anything.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Anyway, again, I hear what you're saying. I was attempting to to suggest to Steve that making a display of theories regarding the fall of empires isn't going to convince anyone of much of anything.

His arguments sure haven't worked yet.

 

[stevevw]

Could you elaborate on this? (I know, I'm sorry everyone else). What is a synopsis of Peterson's hypothesis? What I got from a fast skim of his video was that totalitarians like order and orderliness and are disgusted by disorder. Does that seem a fair description?

They are some of the traits or psyche that controlling thinking and behaviour would display. He also mentions conscientiousness as a trait which would seem contradictory considering its often seen as something positive. But these are normal human traits that have been cognitively distorted.

Peterson is explaining the psychology behind how Totalitarian thinking develops and then relating it to society. He has other pod casts that may go into how this relates to todays society and also how this all fits in with the evolution of societies.

I guess his overall hypothesis is revealing the psychology and to a lesser extent the evolution of human behaviour and relating it into todays context and how this can help people understand themselves and society better.

Peterson had been preaching to young men to be more orderly. Is he priming them for totalitarianism, or did he not consider the consequences of his advice?

I know he can get controversial but what psyche with insight into human behaviour wouldn't speak out if they seen negative behaviour in society that may cause harm and can offer some therapy. The 12 Rules for Life which is mainly aimed at young males is just common sense stuff. Rule one is standup straight with your shoulders back and eyes up looking at the world.

The second is clean up your room or space. The idea is that posture can reflect mindset and that you can't cleanup the mess in your head or other peoples problems until you start with cleaning up your own backyard. Pretty simple psychology.

But the rest of his Rules or principles are about thinking rationally, spotting negative thinking and beliefs like Totalitarianism that will lead to negative behaviour. Free speech and the right to speak the truth as that is important for self and society and reality for that matter.

Cheers,

(Keeping my bed unmade to prevent fascism.)

Lol, if thats avoiding facism then I'm a liberal.

But it does work. Sorting out stuff sorts out your head or at least puts you in that frame of mind. When its all too hard start with the simple stuff and that will help you get your head into some order as well lol.

 

[stevevw]

How does identity trump reality?

Well for example when someone believes they are overweight when they are grossly thin, or believe parts of their body should be removed because they think its dysfunctional or diseased. Or how some believe they are a Furrie, that seems to be the most recent where people identify as animals or toys. This type of deluded thinking happens throughout history as a social contagion. For example eating disorders like Bulimia or self cutting. Usually known as mass hysteria.

I can imagine identities which would be incompatible with our shared culture, nation or our humanity (A person might identify as a Martian, for instance) but I haven't met anyone who identified as a Martian in real life. If I did, I'm not quite sure of how it would "trump my reality."

It would trump reality because we have no evidence for aliens actually in society. We know theres no life on Mars. But what if some say 25 year old identified as a 45 or 65 year old. Would you go along with their identity, make it real in the world so that it trumps the facts. Allow then to say compete in senior competitions against older people.

People can identify with whatever they want but this should not trump reality our lived reality.

Culture itself is a socially constructed idea.

Not completely. Culture is also influenced by common human thinking and behaviour. For example all cultures have a belief and moral system. Belief and a moral sense are natural to humans. Many of the core aspects of culture are universal. Even genered behaviour has a natural basis.

The idea that males play with trucks and girls dolls is reflected in other species especially primates. The sex hormones associated with mascullinity and femine cognitions influence thinking where males think more spatially about things and females more socially about relations and emotions.

But culture can build on this and will express this in different ways. Even reconstructing things into the opposite. But studies have shown if you try to raise a boy as a girl playing with dolls they will still be inclined to play with things like trucks and tools ect.

They still do. Even American LGBT people identify as Americans and participants in American culture.

It doesn't seem to be that way for many young people who attack their own nations as colonialist oppressors. Or want to disrupt everyone else to undermine the system.

I don't see the US as the same as it was when it had a clear unified nation. It has weakened a lot over the last couple of decades. I am talking about where the culture has the same belief and worldview. As nations have allowed many more immigrants into the mix and have not integrated them we are seeing conflicts and a fracturing of national identities and a growing instability.

You say LGBTIQ+ are participants in American culture. Yet it seems that it is these minorities that are siding with Hamas against the US and our way of life. Like they have a completely different ideological belief about the world, about the west.

Not just LGBTIQ+ but other groups like environmentalist like Greta who now has switched from chastizing the boomers to backing the Palestinians. There are many young people thinking this way today. Its subversive and going back to the radical days of the Campus civil rights conflicts.

Or maybe we are just less tolerant of religion being used as an excuse to say hateful things.

Ah yes we are a much more tolerant society today. Have you seen social media, the trolls, the shaming, the cancel culture aiming to absolutely detroy others who think and believe differently in the name of DEI. We are less tolerant today than ever.

The problem with identity politics is that there will always be a conflict of identity rights because one groups rights is another groups denial of rights. That is the very nature of identity politics or making identity the truth and reality.

If we are to be tolerant and inclusive of all then you should not be saying that expressing religious beliefs is hateful as that is being intolerant of anothers belief and conscience. Or is the determination of what is hateful in the eye of the beholder and subjective.

See how it works, or doesn't work for that matter. Its unreal to think we can have tolerance and inclusion and be united at the same time toleranting everything without some basis beyond ourselves to unite us.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Well for example when someone believes they are overweight when they are grossly thin, or believe parts of their body should be removed because they think its dysfunctional or diseased. Or how some believe they are a Furrie, that seems to be the most recent where people identify as animals or toys. This type of deluded thinking happens throughout history as a social contagion. For example eating disorders like Bulimia or self cutting. Usually known as mass hysteria.

None of those things are mass hysteria. Why do you write such things?

 

[Hans Blaster]

They are some of the traits or psyche that controlling thinking and behaviour would display. He also mentions conscientiousness as a trait which would seem contradictory considering its often seen as something positive. But these are normal human traits that have been cognitively distorted.

Peterson is explaining the psychology behind how Totalitarian thinking develops and then relating it to society. He has other pod casts that may go into how this relates to todays society and also how this all fits in with the evolution of societies.

I guess his overall hypothesis is revealing the psychology and to a lesser extent the evolution of human behaviour and relating it into todays context and how this can help people understand themselves and society better.

You guess? I thought maybe you'd know what it was about before linking it Oh, well.

I know he can get controversial but what psyche with insight into human behaviour wouldn't speak out if they seen negative behaviour in society that may cause harm and can offer some therapy. The 12 Rules for Life which is mainly aimed at young males is just common sense stuff. Rule one is standup straight with your shoulders back and eyes up looking at the world.

The second is clean up your room or space. The idea is that posture can reflect mindset and that you can't cleanup the mess in your head or other peoples problems until you start with cleaning up your own backyard. Pretty simple psychology.

Simplistic more like.

But the rest of his Rules or principles are about thinking rationally, spotting negative thinking and beliefs like Totalitarianism that will lead to negative behaviour. Free speech and the right to speak the truth as that is important for self and society and reality for that matter.

"10. Be precise in your speech." Jordan could really use this one. (Also brevity. He does so ramble.)

His rules seem to value order over other things. Frankly I don't see anything in his rules about avoiding rational thinking or free speech.

Lol, if thats avoiding facism then I'm a liberal.

But it does work. Sorting out stuff sorts out your head or at least puts you in that frame of mind. When its all too hard start with the simple stuff and that will help you get your head into some order as well lol.

Pass.

 

[stevevw]

In that video, Peterson presents some useful points, but those points aren't the whole ball of wax and not every society (or empire) in history has clearly fallen.

I agree. But I don't think its a case of total collapse due to Totalitarianism or any other political or ideological worldview. Its also about identifying the different manifestations of that thinking and how it develops, how a society can cultivate such ideas despite them inevitably leading to self destruction. How they decieved themselves into such positions.

Peterson is revealing the thinking behind how this happens so we can then identify it within society. Just as we can identify the mindset of a controller or psychopath but on a societal level. In that sense society as a whole can become deluded and detached from reality. In some ways that is evidenced by the high level of psychological disorders today. In some ways modern society can make people mentally ill.

 

[stevevw]

None of those things are mass hysteria. Why do you write such things?

Its a social contagion and similar to mass hysteria. Here are the definitions

Social contagion is an ubiquitous process by which information, such as attitudes, emotions, or behaviors, are rapidly spread throughout a group from one member to others without rational thought and reason.

Mass hysteria (mass psychosis) is a social phenomenon where a group of people develop similar symptoms that do not have an identifiable physical cause (such as an illness). Instead, the symptoms stem from psychological causes. In mass hysteria events, the symptoms occur in two or more people who also share a common belief about what might cause the illness.1

So both involve the rapid spread of unreal ideas, symptions, mindsets, psyches throughout a group that have no rational basis. The point is its socially caused and can be believed as being real to those who experience it even though its unreal whether thats a phsyical or mental manifestation.

Sometimes entire cultures or at least those of influence can have a form of Groupthink where they truely believe that what they are doing or advocating is the right thing to do, is the truth that we should all abide by. But their thinking is insular and unreal.

 

[J77077]

It is a repeat in that we can look back and see this pattern of rising and falling empires or groups who moved away from God or even the life principles we know keep everything in order such as those of the West for example like 'Made in the image of God".

Which is basically the idea that humans themseves are weak and fallible and need something beyond themselves which is uncorruptable to guide us. When we move away from this we start to believe in our own feelings and desires as being god.

This was seen when the Pharaoh refused to acknowledge God and then they experienced the plagues and the deterioration of their society. Or even when the Isrealites rejected God and began to worship the Caananite idols where they began to suffer and their society broke down.

So we can see the signs that lead to this. In some ways the entire western civilisation is moving away from God and we are seeing the undermining of these long held truths and life principles like being made in Gods image and sacricing for others and the better good of all are breaking down.

People are becoming individualistic and more concerned with self, self pleasuring and hedonism. We see a rise in mental illness and people identifying with delusions based on subjective feelings that are made the basis for what is real and good. Hense rather than being united under one GOd and order we are divided into identity groups pitted at each other.

We become more tribal and that is when we become antagonistic and radical professing all sorts of lies as truths and dictating how everyone should be ordered. In other words we lose our moral compass and decend into whatever can be justified according to subjective feelings. If you look below the surface we will find a whole lot of debortuary and all sorts of crazy and horrible stuff going on.

So if this is the case then just like in the past when the majority of people moved completely away from God and Gods wrath came down I would expect the same to happen again as we move further and further away from God. I think we passed the tipping point around 20 years ago in most western societies. A concerted effort to reject God really began around the 60's.

Now most nations are pasing the 50% against God and this is reflected in the morals and ideology we are governed by which is rather quickly turning radical and unreal. So I think this is a repeat of past collapses but just on a much bigger scale because I think the West is so influential.

Whether the fall will come by self destruction and/or from outside forces such as conflicts with other cultures and the forces of nature brought on by destablizing things or from God Himself it's getting closer rather to that situation and will happen.

Funny you should say that. “God’s image” their likeness in our image.. etc.. whatever version of the Bible you might read. We all know the line. Everything spoken into existence. All evil is forgotten and isn’t written. Like it never existed. Those who are like children will enter the kingdom. Childlike, likeminded. Imagine that. Imagination. Forming an image. Forgiveness. I don’t know. I suppose it wouldn’t be that crazy to believe that we’re all just a figment of Gods own imagination. Something he created in his mind. The all knowing. The truth that we seek might be just that. Humility. We’re just thoughts in Gods head just like they’re just thoughts in our heads. When I have a bad thought I like to forget it. I imagine God is the same. Since all of this is only in his mind I guess once he forgets something, there’s nothing to remind him so it’s like it never existed. I guess that’s why he judges the heart not the mind. We all have bad thoughts even God. What happens when thoughts become self aware? That’s crazy. Or is it?

 

[stevevw]

You guess? I thought maybe you'd know what it was about before linking it Oh, well.

I understand what he is talking about. I just don't understand what you mean by 'His Hypothesis'.

Simplistic more like.

"10. Be precise in your speech." Jordan could really use this one. (Also brevity. He does so ramble.)

Thats because he often thinks on his feet which I think is a good quality as your not being contrived. He is thinking out loud and if you follow that thinking makes sense to the point he makes. He is not just giving you the answer but telling you how we get to that answer.

You will notice he corrects himself as he 'makes things more precise'. That takes thinking things through which is exactly what Peterson we known for.

His rules seem to value order over other things. Frankly I don't see anything in his rules about avoiding rational thinking or free speech.

I think you mean you don't see anything in the 12 Rules that support rational thinking and free speech. You would have to go into more detail on the Rules to see how they relate to rational thinking and free speech. This is inherent in Rules as they are really common sense and make sense. I mean the title of the book is '12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos'. So its implies rationality as the antidote to chaos as far as lived reality is concerned.

12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos by Jordan B Peterson – digested read

Man up and receive the words of advice John Crace has gleaned from this provocative self-help guide

www.theguardian.com

 

[stevevw]

Funny you should say that. “God’s image” their likeness in our image.. etc.. whatever version of the Bible you might read. We all know the line. Everything spoken into existence. All evil is forgotten and isn’t written. Like it never existed. Those who are like children will enter the kingdom. Childlike, likeminded. Imagine that. Imagination. Forming an image. Forgiveness. I don’t know. I suppose it wouldn’t be that crazy to believe that we’re all just a figment of Gods own imagination. Something he created in his mind. The all knowing. The truth that we seek might be just that. Humility. We’re just thoughts in Gods head just like they’re just thoughts in our heads. When I have a bad thought I like to forget it. I imagine God is the same. Since all of this is only in his mind I guess once he forgets something, there’s nothing to remind him so it’s like it never existed. I guess that’s why he judges the heart not the mind. We all have bad thoughts even God. What happens when thoughts become self aware? That’s crazy. Or is it?

Lol I think you covered just about every transcedental religion and consciousness as well. Which is sort of the truth. What you are describing, the 'Thought', the 'Mind' of God or of humans is what is the only real thing we can know. All things go through our minds. It seems humans also have this awareness of morality which is also something that stems from Mind and Consciousness.

John does speak about the Word in the beginning and that all things that were made stem from the Word. More an idea or thought than something solid and material. Yet it has power to change an individual or nation.

Thats one thing we have in common, a mind that can go beyond this world and into a higher plane where the qualities of humility, empathy and justice live. Humans understand reality through meaning and not objective reality. The more we can live within this plane the more we can get along.