Since this thread is all about the decline from the "golden age" of Christian dominance of the culture (1960), I will try to keep that in mind or steer the convo back that way.
Thankyou, I need all the help I can get
I thought it was kind of obvious, and even if it wasn't I am not hiding it from anyone. My country is clearly indicated in the dropdown below my avatar in every post I make. (The writing error I am most likely to make on here is to omit the ? at the end of a question, so I get it.)
Ok I didn't look at the drop down but quickly clicked on your profile which was blocked. I sort of gathered you may be from the US when you were mentioning the religious history but then your name Hans sort of threw me off a bit. Didn't want to assume.
When I think of oppressors of other, I tend to think of current oppressors of others like Russia or Israel, but sure, lets talk about the US and some other countries.
Most nations have oppressed, it seems to be human nature once power comes into it. You forgot the Muslim nations probably the biggest oppressors of all that people don't seem to consider.
You could say that Isreal is an oppressor but then look at what happened to the Jews throughout history, probably one of the most oppressed nations on earth. Now anti semetism is raising its ugly head again. Of all nations people want to be upset with why is it always the Jews.
But what I do know is that this hatred for the Jews is also applied to the west especially the US and with passion. It seems more than just about oppression and rights but deeper. More an ideology then reality. Why not the same passion against others who have done as bad if not worse. Seems biased.
There were communist revolutions in 1919 in Bavaria and other places. East Germany and other central European states which might be classified as "western Christendom" lived under communism for 45 years. Fascism is very western in its origins and symbols. Democracy does have long roots in "the West", but it isn't very Christian.
I think its more about the morals than politics. As the Stae took more power politics came into it. I remember the US held congressional hearings about communist sympathizers. It seems the 2nd WW is what brought the west together in a common cause for peace and Human Rights.
Since then they have become the allied forces so they are at least fighting for the same things which I think is democracy and the freedoms we have come to know.
Currently, but that is not the long history of the west. Spain and Portugal were undoubtedly in the west, but 50 years ago were just about to move out of decades of (fascist) dictatorship. France is on their 5th republic. The first 3 fell to dictatorship and monarchy. Britain was hardly a democracy until parliamentary reform in the early 19th century, Ireland until about 1920, and Hungary isn't one now.
You could say western culture has evolved into what it is today. It seems the US style of democracy has spread. Britain like Australia follow the Westminister parliamentary system and it seems to work well for democracy. I know Britain has the Monarchy but that deminished in power a long time ago.
But this is our history, it was a jostling between church and state as well as the monarchy. Sometimes a blend of all. The church lost more sway and was relegated to moral matters. The same with the Monarchy. Its more a token representation today though still has its worth as far as another voice of the people. Queen Elizabith was great at this, at bringing Brits together during the hard times. But they are losing relevance today.
And France supported one in war against the other. This is not relevant. It has no bearing on being western or Christian. (The US, France, and Britain all have numerous, non-western and non-Christian allies.)
Ok so maybe the idea of the West has become more Americanised as this seems to be the idea most people have, most immigrants who want to leave their own nations to seek the American dream.
But not just the US, nations like Britain, Australia and Canada are the most sought out nations for immigrants and refugees to come to. I mean many actually risk their lives to come to find a better life. So we can't be that bad.
Now we move on to the parts about if the US was Christian and how Christian and unified as such it was.
Do all Christians all think they are separated from the "secular world" (it was nice of you to recognize such a thing exists) and its ideologies? I don't recall ever being told that we should cast away the political ideologies of the two mainstream political parties and separate ourselves from politics. What I do remember was messages from the archbishop telling us to consider the positions of politicians on "life issues".
The point is as I said some people take the same biblical teaching and literally seperate themselves from the world. The bible verses that mention this say that we should not be conformed to this world so some may choose to create a seperate community so they are not conformed to this world. More or less taking the temptation away.
The point is itt the same bible verse that all Christians follow whether seperating self from the world literally or spiritually.
1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
No, not like political squabbles inside parties. These were people setting up whole colonies to avoid certain other types of Christians. Certainly many of these groups were called non-Christians by other who did call themselves Christians. This is as problem for your very-Christian claim. The more you accept that these divisions existed and classify some groups as not properly Christian, the smaller this majority is. If you want to lump them together, then the disputes of major doctrines make it hard to call it all unified.
Your not seeing the forest through the trees. Yes there were disputes as to what is the truth, what is the proper way to be a Christian. But in each community though different in their views they all practiced the core beliefs of Christianity. The had Christian values, didn't believe in abisrtion, homosexuality, adultery, sex before marriage though it happened.
Church on Sundays, prayers in public forums, referring to God and Godly upright citizens. They had a Christian worldview and these were the social norms and not just confined to sunady church.. This was the same when I was growing up where pray was in parliament, presidents utters God bless America and most people attended church. So its not too long ago that we still had God and Christian values as social norms.
And here I thought I need to show 10% outside the unified Christian sphere in the US, but "nearly 100%" seems a lot higher than 90%.
When you take all your seperatists groups who were after all squabling over Christianity yes it was all about Christianity at one stage. Enough anyway that it influenced the public square and social norms, which is enough compared to modern times.
Wow, just wow. I don't know what this law you speak of is, but non attendance was rampant in most of American history. Not really all that different than say the 1980s when 85-90% of Americans identified as Christians, but not even close to that many went to church on Sundays. Large amounts have been once/twice per year Christians for most of American history. (And frankly in the Middle Ages too, in Europe.) As I stated in the prior post, the 1950s & 60s represent a period of *increased* church attendance in the US. It is the anomaly, not the other way around.
Ok so I read different. But even dependening on which nation there were laws (Blue laws) preventing work on Sundays to encourage church going even as recent as a few decades ago.
Blue laws, also known as Sunday laws, Sunday trade laws, and Sunday closing laws, are laws restricting or banning certain activities on specified days, usually Sundays in the western world. The laws were adopted originally for religious reasons, specifically to promote the observance of the Christian day of worship, but since then have come to serve secular purposes as well.
en.wikipedia.org
Sunday Laws in America
Other colonies besides Virginia had their own Sunday laws, requiring attendance at services and forbidding everything from working to sports and recreation to swearing and "tippling" at the taverns.
www.libertymagazine.org
Not only was divorce and family abandonment common, there were also (small) Christian utopian communities that practice free love founded in the mid 19th century. This one in New York state spawned one of the biggest silverware companies in the world.
I am sure there has always been strange and alternative interpretations of Christianity. I mean look at the persecution of the church, look at the child abuse.
I am not sure divorce and family abandonment was common, well not as common as it became after mid 20th century. More marriages lasted a long time. There was more respect and value for the institution of marriage.
I only have to read the first few lines to know that though these people may have believed they were Christians (as did Charles Mason and his followers) they broke a fundemental Christian truth in believing that Christ has already come back in 70AD. It is clear core Christian truth that this is not the case and goes against other fundemental Christian doctrines like Christs future return and judgement, all of Revelations and may other scriptures.
There have been mant groups claiming to represent Christ and Christ even points this out that many will come in HIs name. Look at Jones Town, Waco the list goes on. Look at the modern day versions of TV Evangelists and Celeb churches lol.
Nobody thinks man created the world/universe. It's best you stay away from these claims. As you say you don't know US religious history.
I was referring to how todays society believes man, the human is god as compared to the Declaration and its acknowledgement for society of the creator God and supreme judge of all. This was certainly a different worldview, a God centred one. The language of that day shows that God and Christian values played a big role in peoples consciousness and conscience for thatmatter.
Secular enlightenment principles and deism are far more obvious in the DofI than Christian thought.
Not really. If you look at the other language around the use of God it clearly shows it was more than some mystical force or uninterested and impersonal God. For example later in the last paragraph of the DofI it says
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions.”
That's not just some uninterested creator God, this is a God as judge who doesn't seem to be just leaving the people or the world to themselves. Also look at Jeffersons draft of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom act. Its full of references to more than some Deistic and impersonal God.
Jefferson mentions God as the Almighty God the Holy and God the Lord both of body and mind. There are other examples which clearly are referring to the Christian God or at least the Old Testament God. They personalise God and are speaking in reverence to a God who is present in people’s lives, and not just one who made the world a long time ago.
An external influence on the West, just as I would categorize it.
But thats what I find interesting, that such a foreign religion should have such an impact.
Did it peak in the Enlightenment? It doesn't seem that way. Given there were confessional wars for a century prior to Enlightenment it would seem that Enlightenment represents a decline in church power, a secularization of power. The state was always the more powerful entity and I recall something about your predecessors having a king who split his church off to control it better.
Yeah I sort of thought Enlightenment was the pivotal point but yes the decline had already started with the great Schism within the church. But the church still influenced the moral aspects of society.
Australia today doesn't relate to British history as our own. We look at to our pioneers which were mainly settlers and convicts. We relate to the convicts lol. But we are very multicultural and have been for a long time. We have gradually moved away from British culture and people are now calling for a republic.
Perhaps in your country, but in mine the church was shoved out of the state centuries ago. Nothing about that "relationship" changed in the 20th century.
But the influence of the church in the public square and on social norms was still strong and its only been in the 20th century that we have moved away from this. Like I said it was only in the 70's that we brought in divorce and abortion laws. I think anti Gay laws changed around 1925. As mentioned there were still laws prohibiting trading on Sundays as recent as the 80's.
Sex before marriage, out of wedlock pregnacies and adultery was frowned upon. Presidents mentioned God a lot, great speakers like Dr King united people under God, prayer was allowed in the public square lol. Now its not.
I know of no watershed in marriage law in the US in 1975. Marriage law is and always has been controlled by the states. If you are thinking about things like no-fault divorce that goes back before 1975, especially in California where it was advocated for by notorious liberal Ronald Reagan.
Yeah not fault divorce laws. It happened around 75 in Australia so probably a bit earlier in the US. But this came after the wave of the cultural revolutions in the 60's and 70s.
Were these "social revolutions" ever religious? How do you measure this secularization of social norms and public discussion in the 50s and 60s?
Well obviously the cultural revolutions of the 60's and 70's was being births before that. Its a gradual evolution of society. I think post war came peace and everyone wanted to enjoy life and there was a new sense of freedom. The social or cultural revolutions were the civils rights, womens liberation and the sexual revolution that followed. These are well documented.
Not religious movements but cultural movements, more from the secular side of things. In fact it was in part a counter culture and a response to traditional social norms, to religion.
