Interesting verse

[LouisBooth]

Just thought I would share considering the title of the forum

 

Genesis 8:21 "The LORD smelled the pleaseing aroma and said in his heart:"Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though ever incination  of his heart is evil from childhood..."

 

Hmmm...total deprav??

 

[LouisBooth]

Oh, I'm posting this in relation to salvation, and how it happens...if too many people think I should move it, just say so.

 

[seebs]

I don't think that implies *total* depravity, merely *universal* depravity. In other words, all people have evil in them, and some inclination in that direction. That doesn't mean there can't be anything else to us.

 

[LouisBooth]

"In other words, all people have evil in them, and some inclination in that direction"

Actaully according to that verse it does. I made a type-o its EVERY inclination of the heart... I Jerimah it also states that the heart is a decetful thing. Seebs that's exactly what that verse says. No wiggle room, sorry.

 

[seebs]

Interesting! Now I have one for that side of the argument. *sigh*. I could collect evidence for both sides of that argument for years, and not know.

 

[LouisBooth]

True, but in the case of this verse, nope, its clearly saying total deprav.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hmmm. Total depravity, mankind could not in any wayshapeorform come to God. Not allbyhimself at any rate...

So, God created man, man fell (that was predestined also?), fallen man populated the Earth. God knew all this would happen, it was His plan.

Fallen man-on-the-Earth was so evil God regretted creating him.

But, WAIT, that was God's PLAN! God was surprised by His own plan? God made man totally depraved, then lamented because man was so sinful? (And I thought MY memory was faulty---poor God!)

I guess Noah was God's "IRRESISTABLY-SAVED". I wonder why God chose to redeem-and-purify (unilaterally) only one man (and his family)? Maybe, could it be, that while God was watching Noah, THAT'S why man's evilness snuck up on God? Just trying to make sense of it...

God made men, and fallen men are too depraved to follow Him. God irresistably saves Noah & family, and God laments creating mankind because mankind was so evil---so God saves Noah, and destroys evil-man.

Yet what happened after Adam & Eve, the "multiplying/populating-the-Earth", the exact same thing happened after Noah. Some of Noah's children seem to also be evil. Why do you suppose that is? We all descended from Noah---if Noah was God's CHOSEN-IRRESISTABLY-SAVED, why would some of us, Noah's offspring, why would some of us be evil again?

The evil men were destroyed. Those that God CREATED EVIL and then lamented BECAUSE they were evil.

The righteous family was SAVED, even though it was God who INSTALLED that righteousness ON them. God installed Noah's righteousness, and then chose a worldwide-flood as the vehicle of destroying evil-men, whose EVILNESS was ALSO intalled-by-God. (Well, if the only way for man to NOT-be-evil is for God's forceful interference, then their-being-evil is absolutely God's CHOICE!)

And yet some of Noah's family became evil again. If God lamented about men being evil BEFORE Noah, and of course it was God's CHOICE that they were evil, how then could men-being-evil-AFTER-Noah still be God's CHOICE?

Why do you think there was a flood?

Uhhmmmm, tell me again how this supports "Sovereign-Predestined-Election" over "Free Will"???

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Just thought I would share considering the title of the forum

 

Genesis 8:21 "The LORD smelled the pleaseing aroma and said in his heart:"Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination  of his heart is evil from childhood..."

 

Hmmm...total deprav??

Yeah I think it supports total depravity pretty well.  Because why would man be universally evil at a very early age.  Without total depravity the universality of  evil in man is hard to fathom and understand how it occurs but this is stating man is universally evil in their youth.  So it gives man very few years (if any) to get so corrupt and to do so universally without total depravity is hard to comprehend.  I mean why wouldn't atleast 1% of man live a sinless life in their youth if there is no TD?  I would expect atleast one person to do it but this verse is all inclusive.  All men are evil in childhood and not just a little bit but "every inclination  of his heart is evil from childhood."  The breadth and the inclusiveness of evil at such an early age is too incredible for me to believe without TD. 


 

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hmmm. Total depravity, mankind could not in any wayshapeorform come to God. Not allbyhimself at any rate...

So, God created man, man fell (that was predestined also?), fallen man populated the Earth. God knew all this would happen, it was His plan.

Fallen man-on-the-Earth was so evil God regretted creating him.

But, WAIT, that was God's PLAN! God was surprised by His own plan? God made man totally depraved, then lamented because man was so sinful? (And I thought MY memory was faulty---poor God!)

I guess Noah was God's "IRRESISTABLY-SAVED". I wonder why God chose to redeem-and-purify (unilaterally) only one man (and his family)? Maybe, could it be, that while God was watching Noah, THAT'S why man's evilness snuck up on God? Just trying to make sense of it...

God made men, and fallen men are too depraved to follow Him. God irresistably saves Noah & family, and God laments creating mankind because mankind was so evil---so God saves Noah, and destroys evil-man.

Yet what happened after Adam & Eve, the "multiplying/populating-the-Earth", the exact same thing happened after Noah. Some of Noah's children seem to also be evil. Why do you suppose that is? We all descended from Noah---if Noah was God's CHOSEN-IRRESISTABLY-SAVED, why would some of us, Noah's offspring, why would some of us be evil again?

The evil men were destroyed. Those that God CREATED EVIL and then lamented BECAUSE they were evil.

The righteous family was SAVED, even though it was God who INSTALLED that righteousness ON them. God installed Noah's righteousness, and then chose a worldwide-flood as the vehicle of destroying evil-men, whose EVILNESS was ALSO intalled-by-God. (Well, if the only way for man to NOT-be-evil is for God's forceful interference, then their-being-evil is absolutely God's CHOICE!)

And yet some of Noah's family became evil again. If God lamented about men being evil BEFORE Noah, and of course it was God's CHOICE that they were evil, how then could men-being-evil-AFTER-Noah still be God's CHOICE?

Why do you think there was a flood?

Uhhmmmm, tell me again how this supports "Sovereign-Predestined-Election" over "Free Will"???

I thought Louis said that it was to support Total depravity.  Also this post shows some misconceptions about predestined election and what the people who hold to such a view believe about God.  I see them as saying that everything occurs based upon His sovereign will but not that He made man sin or that He caused man to be evil.  No He allows the evil to occur because He chose to let man sin instead of making man a puppet.  (which is what is commonly accused of by non 5 point calvinists) I won't go on but I think that you might want to rethink what your oppononents believe because I do not feel you have repersenated them accurately. 

blackhawk

 

 

[Ben johnson]

Yeah I think it supports total depravity pretty well. Because why would man be universally evil at a very early age. Without total depravity the universality of evil in man is hard to fathom and understand how it occurs but this is stating man is universally evil in their youth.

Blackhawk, there is a difference between "DEPRAVITY" and "TOTAL DEPRAVITY". Depravity says that our nature, inheritted from Adam, is inclined towards sin and rebellion. Total depravity says that God does NOT "draw all men to Himself", that not-EVERY-man can RECEIVE Christ (for NO ONE can seek God or even CONSIDER receiving Him/believing, without some Divine and selective intervention on God's part---this flies in the face of all the verses that say, "You will seek Me, and you will FIND Me when you seek Me with all your heart...). This is the belief that I do not find represented in Scripture. Romans 1 says "God is revealed to all men, they are without excuse". Scripture says all men are called, all are given a choice. Those who receive Jesus through their OWN faith are saved.

It's not that "mankind is less-than-totally-depraved-so-he-can-save-himself", it's that "God calls EVERY man (woman & accountable child) to salvation and allows enough faith that each CAN receive salvation". John8:43-44 very clearly, in Jesus' words, says "some won't believe because they don't WANT to believe---they prefer to follow their evil father-of-lies".

I think that you might want to rethink what your oppononents believe because I do not feel you have repersenated them accurately.

I think I represent them accurately---I do not think they represent themselves accurately.

They say that mankind perishes because of each one's OWN evil nature and actions. So it's each person's OWN fault. And it is by grace that God rescues/saves only a FEW. But the reality is that, in that view, the SAVED would ALSO have perished except for God's forceful interference.

Thus it is GOD who CHOOSES both salvation and reprobation FOR us---each man is but a helpless pawn in the machinations of a sovereign all-determining-God.

I just don't see that represented in Scripture. Yes we are all depraved---yet Scripture says that God allows each person to MAKE a choice---and it has been so from the start. "I have set before you the blessing and the curse, life and death---so choose life, loving the Lord your God, walking in His statutes and commandments, holding fast to Him".

Scripture supports depravity---but it does not support total depravity. This is not a "Pelagian-self-righteous" concept (where man possesses a side of goodness all-by-himself), simply a recognition that "God CALLS (the Greek is 'Helkuo-DRAGS') ALL MEN to Himself". God overcomes our "total depravity" in enough measure that we CAN choose Him---or reject Him. This choice, Scripturally, persists throughout our saved life...

If I am wrong, show me so with Scripture, as I have shown my position with Scripture...

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by seebs
I don't think that implies *total* depravity, merely *universal* depravity. In other words, all people have evil in them, and some inclination in that direction. That doesn't mean there can't be anything else to us.

Nope.  To mean that it would say, "even though the inclination of every heart is evil from childhood..."

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hmmm. Total depravity, mankind could not in any wayshapeorform come to God. Not allbyhimself at any rate...

Correct.

So, God created man, man fell (that was predestined also?), fallen man populated the Earth. God knew all this would happen, it was His plan.

Correct. 

Fallen man-on-the-Earth was so evil God regretted creating him.

No.  God's foreordained plan was righteously motivated and sovereignly executed.  God does not make mistakes. 

The thing you continually want to ignore is that the interaction of God's elect and unregenerate man's sinfulness is one of God's methods of conforming His chosen to the image of His Son.

Also, when reading of emotional responses by God, such as repenting and weeping and lamenting, remember that it is man's limited ability to describe the unlimited sovereignty of a Divine being.  It is not that God ever "regrets" anything He does because everything He does is righteously motivated and sovereignly executed according to His Will with the counsel of no one.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Romans 1 says "God is revealed to all men, they are without excuse".

That is the general revelation of God through His creation.  The is not the same as God bringing someone to an intimate knowledge of the truth in an undeniable fashion.

Scripture says all men are called, all are given a choice.

Those who believe in predestined election don't discount this.  The difference in viewpoints on this issue is a difference in viewpoints on the issue of depravity.  Regeneration is the process of making certain recipients responsive by the power of His Divine grace.  He just doesn't extend that grace to all.  It doesn't relinquish their responsibility.

It's not that "mankind is less-than-totally-depraved-so-he-can-save-himself", it's that "God calls EVERY man (woman & accountable child) to salvation and allows enough faith that each CAN receive salvation".

If that is the case why is there such emphasis put upon "those who can come to the Christ being only those whom the Father gives Him?  If everyone could, why make a distinction?

John8:43-44 very clearly, in Jesus' words, says "some won't believe because they don't WANT to believe---they prefer to follow their evil father-of-lies".

The only reason every single one of us doesn't "follow our evil father of lies" is because God extends His grace to those that He selects to redeem, according to His own counsel, not our ability to believe. 

I think I represent them accurately---I do not think they represent themselves accurately.

I think it's pretty obvious how you're representing yourself here. 

God bless

 

[LouisBooth]

"So, God created man, man fell (that was predestined also?), fallen man populated the Earth. "

Noooo..Adam was without sin, he had free will and could choose not to sin, He was not totally deprived.

 

[Ben johnson]

Also, when reading of emotional responses by God, such as repenting and weeping and lamenting, remember that it is man's limited ability to describe the unlimited sovereignty of a Divine being. It is not that God ever "regrets" anything He does because everything He does is righteously motivated and sovereignly executed according to His Will with the counsel of no one.

"And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart." Gen6:6 Which shall I believe, your words or those of Scripture?

That is the general revelation of God through His creation. The is not the same as God bringing someone to an intimate knowledge of the truth in an undeniable fashion.

This is based on your preconception of "limited atonement", or "specific election". The verse says, "they are without excuse"---If all are called and all are given enough revelation to overcome depravity and CHOOSE Jesus (or not), then-and-only-then do they have no excuse. If it is as you believe, that GOD is the one who saves or reprobates, then they most definitely DO have an excuse. Black-and-white.

He just doesn't extend that grace to all.

Show me in Scripture where He doesn't extend saving-grace to all. Meanwhile, I will show you: "I will HELKUO-DRAG-CALL all men to Myself". Jn12:32

And, "Let whosoever WILL take of the water of life freely". Rev22:17

"And He Himself is the propitiation (appeasement) for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the WHOLE WORLD." 1Jn2:2 Please tell me---if atonement is LIMITED, how can Jesus be the "propitiation for the sins of the HOLOS COSMOS ENTIRE HUMAN WORLD"? How can this verse exist in "predestined-election"?

"God our Savior desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim2:4 How is this possible if most people are left reprobate? If God desires ALL to be saved, how then can He ignore MOST?

And, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to PAS ANTHROPOS ALL MEN, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to PAS ANTHROPOS ALL MEN." Let's discuss this a moment---PE contends that the FIRST "pas anthropos" doesn't mean the same as the SECOND "pas anthropos". Yet, the structure of the verse precludes this:
SO then as through ONE sin came condemnation to ALL MEN,
EVEN SO through one ...came justification to ALL MEN.

The problem with saying "The two ALL MEN's are not the SAME", is the connection! "SO AS, EVEN SO". The meaning is that they are exactly the same! Condemnation came to ALL MEN through ONE ACT, Adam, and EVEN SO (in exactly the same way) came justification by ONE ACT! It just doesn't work to engage in "eisegesis", writing your own theology into Scripture where it IS NOT. The two statments are the SAME. Condemnation came by the one to ALL, justification came by one to ALL. Universal. No partiality. No excuse. No selection. ALL can be saved. No other way to "take" this...

If that is the case why is there such emphasis put upon "those who can come to the Christ being only those whom the Father gives Him? If everyone could, why make a distinction?

OK, this is obviously from John chapter 6. We've discussed this, but happy to discuss it again. Most of that chapter is Jesus asserting His deity. This in response to their, "Who does He think He is? Do we not know His father and mother? Did we not watch this little kid grow UP?!" Now, Jesus speaks of one group of people, the group that He will RAISE UP. This group is mentioned TWICE:

1. The will (desire) of Him who sent Me, that all He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up the last day.

2. The will (desire) of My Father, that everyone who beholds & believes in the Son may have eternal life and I Myself will raise him up the last day.

Whom are the "raised up"? They are those who are given to Jesus by the Father.

Whom are the "raised up"? They are those who saw Jesus and believed.

Whom are they-who-believed? They are those God gave Jesus.

Whom are those that God gave Jesus? They are THOSE WHO BELIEVED.

Do you understand, Reformationist? Nothing in this passage presents believing, as SUCCEEDING giving. Both verses (39 & 40) are presented as parallel, not sequential. At the TIME of them being given-to-Jesus, they ARE BELIEVERS!!! As I said before, most of the passage is Jesus asserting His deity---so that He is saying, "If you COME to GOD, He will give you to ME!" (Because He was/is the Messiah! John14: "Why do you want to see the Father? Do you not know that I am IN the Father, and the Father is IN ME? If you have SEEN ME, you have seen the FATHER!")

Jesus clearly says, "EVERYONE who believes in the Son, MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE"! There is no selectivity here, none at all! EVERYONE! And everyone who believes, is given by the Father to the Son! Everyone. Universal. Not limited. There is not one word here that even implies that one-must-first-be-given-by-God-to-Jesus-before-he-can-believe!

The only reason every single one of us doesn't "follow our evil father of lies" is because God extends His grace to those that He selects to redeem, according to His own counsel, not our ability to believe.

Show me this concept in Scripture, Reformationist! Anywhere. Meanwhile, I can show you real Scriptures about apostasy, true believers who lose salvation. Real Scriptures about perseverance, our ability to "abide-in-Him-or-NOT", real Scriptures that say "we will reign/be-presented-to-God/receive-the-GATES-of-Heaven, IF (and ONLY if) we persevere, abide, endure, remain steadfast, keep ourselves in His love, walk in Him, on and on and on. Whom shall I believe, reformationists, or Scriptural writers? All the Scriptural writers agree---they all say the same thing...

I think it's pretty obvious how you're representing yourself here.

Please tell me---how am I representing myself? I stated that "Predestined-Election" proponents claim that any man who perishes, does so of his own fault---I point out, that in PE view, only God's willfull interference overcomes "total-depravity", so that SOME can be saved, those whom God CHOOSES. Thus, it is GOD who saves, and it is GOD who reprobates. Entirely God's choice, we are but helpless pawns in the machinations of an all-controlling God. Am I misrepresenting someone?

Can we deal with Scriptures? Can anyone of "PE" bent, show me ANY supporting Scriptures? I have shown you many Scriptures that support "free will".

I will be happy to show more, and/or repeat.

I am open to changing to "Predestined-Election"---if it is supported in Scripture.

I have yet to see that support.

I see lots & lots of support for "Free Will".

For "Responsible Grace"...

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"So, God created man, man fell (that was predestined also?), fallen man populated the Earth. "

Noooo..Adam was without sin, he had free will and could choose not to sin, He was not totally deprived.

Right Louis.  However, the concept of "total depravity" has never been applied to pre-Fall Adam.  I would not go so far as to say, "Adam had free will."  But, I will say, He's as close to it as any human has ever been, excepting the human nature of Jesus, of course.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
"And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart." Gen6:6 Which shall I believe, your words or those of Scripture?

You've never believed me before.  Why should I think you would now?   I will say that I find it odd that so analytical of a mind (that would be your's) could envision God weeping over something that He knew would happen before it happened.

 

If it is as you believe, that GOD is the one who saves or reprobates, then they most definitely DO have an excuse. Black-and-white.

Okay.

Show me in Scripture where He doesn't extend saving-grace to all. Meanwhile, I will show you: "I will HELKUO-DRAG-CALL all men to Myself". Jn12:32

Couple things.  First, "HELKUO" doesn't mean "call" as in "send out a request."  I'm not even sure that it means "call" in any sense.  Secondly, in what parallel universe are all men "dragged" to God.  That denotes salvation.  Obviously, not all men are saved.  Lastly, the verse also says, "if I am lifted up from the earth."  Since you like to concentrate on single words sooooo much, do you think Jesus was saying "if" as if there was the off chance that He wouldn't?

And, "Let whosoever WILL take of the water of life freely". Rev22:17

Never denied this.  All I've ever said is that those who will "take of the water of life freely" are those whom God has regenerated.  The non-elect will never do so. 

"And He Himself is the propitiation (appeasement) for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the WHOLE WORLD." 1Jn2:2 Please tell me---if atonement is LIMITED, how can Jesus be the "propitiation for the sins of the HOLOS COSMOS ENTIRE HUMAN WORLD"? How can this verse exist in "predestined-election"?

Well Ben, we have discussed this exact verse more times than I care to address.  Didn't do anything to change either of our positions before.  Do you think it will now?  Do you really understand what an appeasement is?  If you did, you wouldn't be saying that Christ was the appeasement for all mankind.  Are the sins of all mankind paid for?  If not, then Jesus obviously didn't appease God's wrath for the sins of "all mankind." 

"God our Savior desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim2:4 How is this possible if most people are left reprobate? If God desires ALL to be saved, how then can He ignore MOST?

As I've said before, what kind of god is it that you believe is so impotent, so powerless, that he could truly desire one thing to happen and not make it so?  I do not believe that God delights in the death of the wicked.  However, He knows that their wickedness is a tool that He uses to conform His children.  How else can you appreciate that which you've been saved from?  How else can you learn patience except that you be in a position to have to exercise it?  How else can you learn compassion except you be shown compassion?

And, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to PAS ANTHROPOS ALL MEN, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to PAS ANTHROPOS ALL MEN." Let's discuss this a moment---PE contends that the FIRST "pas anthropos" doesn't mean the same as the SECOND "pas anthropos". Yet, the structure of the verse precludes this:
SO then as through ONE sin came condemnation to ALL MEN,
EVEN SO through one ...came justification to ALL MEN.

The problem with saying "The two ALL MEN's are not the SAME", is the connection! "SO AS, EVEN SO". The meaning is that they are exactly the same! Condemnation came to ALL MEN through ONE ACT, Adam, and EVEN SO (in exactly the same way) came justification by ONE ACT! It just doesn't work to engage in "eisegesis", writing your own theology into Scripture where it IS NOT. The two statments are the SAME. Condemnation came by the one to ALL, justification came by one to ALL. Universal. No partiality. No excuse. No selection. ALL can be saved. No other way to "take" this...

See.  This is exactly what I'm talking about.  You go on, and on, and on, and on about how "pas anthropos" mean all men and since the same word is used it means the same thing.  Do you know what "justification of life" means?  Apparantly not.  It doesn't mean that they were entitled to have a life.  It means their lives were justified, as in made just, as in made righteous in God's eyes by the act of Jesus' propitiatory death.  Unless of course you think all men are going to Heaven.  Oh, that's right, you're one of those that think all Jesus' death did was give you an opportunity.  It didn't actually save you.  What saved you was your decision, right?

Do you understand, Reformationist? Nothing in this passage presents believing, as SUCCEEDING giving. Both verses (39 & 40) are presented as parallel, not sequential. At the TIME of them being given-to-Jesus, they ARE BELIEVERS!!!

Oooooh, I see now.  Why didn't I see that God, whose plan was complete long before you or I came into existance is giving us to Christ at the same time as I came to believe?  Oh wait.  First you say they're parallel, then you say that at the time of them being given to Jesus they're already believers?  Doesn't sound very "parallel."  One thing though, Ben.  Here we have Jesus going to Capernaum and the people say, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"  Here's Jesus' reply: "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."  Whose work was it they believe in Him whom He sent?  Were these people already believers of their own wellspring of internal belief?  Or was it God's work that they believe?  Then, in v. 44 Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."  Now Ben, if everyone "can come" as you so readily attest, why does Jesus make a statement clarifying who can come.  You say everyone can come.  He says only those the Father draws to Him may come.  If the "only those the Father draws" means everyone, why not say something to the effect of "everyone can come because my Father draws everyone."  Simple, to the point.  Then, in v. 45 it says, "And they shall all be taught by God.  Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."  Now wait a minute.  You say, everyone can come to Christ.  He says, not everyone, but only those whom the Father draws.  Then He says that "everyone" who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.  Tell me Ben, do you think that means that the only thing standing in our way from bringing every single soul to Christ is that they haven't had the opportunity to "hear and learn?"  Christ says, "everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."  Not "can" come to me.  He said "comes to Me."

Can we deal with Scriptures? Can anyone of "PE" bent, show me ANY supporting Scriptures? I have shown you many Scriptures that support "free will".

Shown.  Numerous times. 

I am open to changing to "Predestined-Election"---if it is supported in Scripture.

You're right Ben.  This topic has only been being debated for God knows how long.  Who are these looney toons that have studied the Bible, I'm sure, many more times than you and I put together and continue to believe in predestination.  How dare they?  Maybe we should find all these people and just tell them that all they needed to do was talk to Ben Johnson.

God bless.