Forgiveness...

[TrustAndObey]

Part of the Investigative Judgment concerns the REWARDS the righteous receive....it isn't just about the punishment of the wicked.

Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and THEN he shall reward every man according to his works.

Revelation 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly: and my reward is WITH me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[SassySDA]

Part of the Investigative Judgment concerns the REWARDS the righteous receive....it isn't just about the punishment of the wicked.

Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and THEN he shall reward every man according to his works.

Revelation 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly: and my reward is WITH me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Nice background!!

 

[PaleHorse]

You are missing what I am saying. I have not said that there is no IJ. I have asked if the believer is covered by the righteousness of Christ (and adventists do believe in Righteousness by faith) and confessed sins are forgiven, what is there to review?

In an investigation something has to be reviewed, if the believer is covered, and forgiven then there can't be anything on the "record."

As for the unfallen worlds, they would know that God is just, and such is a non issue....

I'm going to have to agree with Cliff's answer on this; there is still an issue. Neither the angels nor other created beings of the universe have mind-reading/heart-reading powers - they also have not, as a whole, been keeping score (if you will) of each person here on earth. As such, they cannot possibly know who should have been raised in the first resurrection and who shouldn't have. You see, the judgment, in my view, is not as much about determining who are the wheat and who are the tares as much as it is about God's justice. Let me make a blanket statement; God knows everything - He knows right now who will be lost and who will be saved; He knows the end from the beginning (Is 46:10). The judgment will not be to inform God of things He already knows, see what I mean? The judgment is to show the rest of creation (the before-mentioned angels and universal beings) that God is being just in His judgment.
Remember, Satan has accused God of basically being a tyrant - God's justice demands that every single one of Satan's accusations be PROVEN false. There can be no lingering thought after the new earth is established that God may have been too harsh on the wicked, that He should have given some of them a second chance, etc. No, the Bible tells us that sin will be forever destroyed! How is that done though, how can sin be forever destroyed when we are free-thinking creations who can reason, evaluate, and make determinations on our own? How does God accomplish this? Well, it isn't by magic or brainwashing - it is through an investigative judgment that shows all creation that God was fair, long-suffering, and had provided the wicked many "second chances".
Maybe it's the phrase "Investigative Judgment" that throws people off, for judgment implies that a determination is being made about the person. Personally, I think the phrase "The Showing of the Evidence" might be more clear to some.

Was this clear as mud or what?

 

[SassySDA]

I'm going to have to agree with Cliff's answer on this; there is still an issue. Neither the angels nor other created beings of the universe have mind-reading/heart-reading powers - they also have not, as a whole, been keeping score (if you will) of each person here on earth. As such, they cannot possibly know who should have been raised in the first resurrection and who shouldn't have. You see, the judgment, in my view, is not as much about determining who are the wheat and who are the tares as much as it is about God's justice. Let me make a blanket statement; God knows everything - He knows right now who will be lost and who will be saved; He knows the end from the beginning (Is 46:10). The judgment will not be to inform God of things He already knows, see what I mean? The judgment is to show the rest of creation (the before-mentioned angels and universal beings) that God is being just in His judgment.
Remember, Satan has accused God of basically being a tyrant - God's justice demands that every single one of Satan's accusations be PROVEN false. There can be no lingering thought after the new earth is established that God may have been too harsh on the wicked, that He should have given some of them a second chance, etc. No, the Bible tells us that sin will be forever destroyed! How is that done though, how can sin be forever destroyed when we are free-thinking creations who can reason, evaluate, and make determinations on our own? How does God accomplish this? Well, it isn't by magic or brainwashing - it is through an investigative judgment that shows all creation that God was fair, long-suffering, and had provided the wicked many "second chances".
Maybe it's the phrase "Investigative Judgment" that throws people off, for judgment implies that a determination is being made about the person. Personally, I think the phrase "The Showing of the Evidence" might be more clear to some.

Was this clear as mud or what?

It was crystal clear to me.

 

[StormyOne]

Thank you for your response....

 

[StormyOne]

One more question if I may ask.....

Since you believe that God has to show the evidence to the unfallen beings does this mean that they need to be convinced that God is just? Would this also mean that even now heaven exists in an atmosphere of distrust as the unfallen beings wait to see how God is dealing with earth?

 

[PaleHorse]

One more question if I may ask.....

Since you believe that God has to show the evidence to the unfallen beings does this mean that they need to be convinced that God is just?

No, God doesn't have to do anything - He is sovereign. But He is also a God of justice. The accusations made by Satan must be answered.

Would this also mean that even now heaven exists in an atmosphere of distrust as the unfallen beings wait to see how God is dealing with earth?

No. Consider these two points; 1) God is going to do something that even the Bible calls His "strange act" (Is. 28:21) - He is going to utterly destroy (for all time) part of His creation. 2) How do you think this is going to be viewed by all the rest of creation? You see, this is the point of the judgment. If God is the tyrant that Satan makes Him out to be and this destruction takes place (which it will), how is the rest of creation going to determine that it was required or that it was just? If God shows them (the rest of creation) no explaination then He is the tyrant and Satan was correct.

Does that help?

 

[statrei]

[/font]
No. Consider these two points; 1) God is going to do something that even the Bible calls His "strange act" (Is. 28:21) - He is going to utterly destroy (for all time) part of His creation. 2) How do you think this is going to be viewed by all the rest of creation? You see, this is the point of the judgment. If God is the tyrant that Satan makes Him out to be and this destruction takes place (which it will), how is the rest of creation going to determine that it was required or that it was just? If God shows them (the rest of creation) no explaination then He is the tyrant and Satan was correct.

Does that help?

The problem with that argument is the fact that Lucifer used to be the covering cherub. You are suggestinig that one day he suddenly disappeared without explanation and that caused not a stir among these unfallen beings. However, when it comes to this earth suddenly they have a rush of empathy. The explanation raised more questions than it answers.

BTW, the strangness of the act is that in destroying part of the Creation He is destroying part of Himself. Which explains quite a few things that we tend to ignore.

 

[NeverADullMoment]

The problem with that argument is the fact that Lucifer used to be the covering cherub. You are suggestinig that one day he suddenly disappeared without explanation and that caused not a stir among these unfallen beings. However, when it comes to this earth suddenly they have a rush of empathy. The explanation raised more questions than it answers.

I would imagine that the unfallen beings absolutely knew what was happening with Lucifer. God doesn't just tell us that He's fair, He proves it. He's proving it right now, but judgment will leave absolutely no question as to His love and justice.

 

[PaleHorse]

The problem with that argument is the fact that Lucifer used to be the covering cherub. You are suggestinig that one day he suddenly disappeared without explanation and that caused not a stir among these unfallen beings. However, when it comes to this earth suddenly they have a rush of empathy. The explanation raised more questions than it answers.

It makes no difference that he USED to be the coverig cherub - he fell and the Bible tells us that God threw him to earth. The rest of creation, those unfallen, were not affected by Satan's wrath and for us to assume it did would be adding information to the scriptures that simply isn't there. The Bible answers your question very clearly here.

BTW, the strangness of the act is that in destroying part of the Creation He is destroying part of Himself. Which explains quite a few things that we tend to ignore.

I agree.

 

[statrei]

I would imagine that the unfallen beings absolutely knew what was happening with Lucifer. God doesn't just tell us that He's fair, He proves it. He's proving it right now, but judgment will leave absolutely no question as to His love and justice.

I'm getting very concerned that so many members still don't understand that this is not our judgement; it is God's judgment. No charges have been filed against us. Charges have only been filed by Satan and they were filed against the Creator. I have to wonder what the pulpit is preaching.

 

[Cliff2]

I would imagine that the unfallen beings absolutely knew what was happening with Lucifer. God doesn't just tell us that He's fair, He proves it. He's proving it right now, but judgment will leave absolutely no question as to His love and justice.

The unfallen beings had never seen or heard of sin before. They had no idea just what was going on and could only look from the outside and hope that their belief in God was sure and true.

It is true that God does prove He is fair by what He does.

 

[Cliff2]

One more question if I may ask.....

Since you believe that God has to show the evidence to the unfallen beings does this mean that they need to be convinced that God is just? Would this also mean that even now heaven exists in an atmosphere of distrust as the unfallen beings wait to see how God is dealing with earth?

I doubt that there is too much doubt in heaven now that the Son of God was crucified on the cross of calvary.

What does remain though is that there will be many surprises as to who is in heaven and who is not there.

The record will be there for all to see why, then Jesus will wipe away every tear from their eyes and the memory of them will be no more about that person in question.

I believe PaleHorse has explained this very well already.

 

[Cliff2]

I'm getting very concerned that so many members still don't understand that this is not our judgement; it is God's judgment. No charges have been filed against us. Charges have only been filed by Satan and they were filed against the Creator. I have to wonder what the pulpit is preaching.

Revelation 12:10 (King James Version)

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

What does the Bible say here?

They are being accused day and night before God by the "accuser of our brethren" (Satan)

 

[statrei]

Revelation 12:10 (King James Version)

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

What does the Bible say here?

They are being accused day and night before God by the "accuser of our brethren" (Satan)

You should also have quoted from the "Three Angels' Message," "the hour of his judgement is come." The charge against God is that humans should be saved while Lucifer is not, essentially denying his claim to the human race. This is the basis of his accusation against us. He says we are the same as he is. That accusation does not lead to a trial.

It does not help that so many Christians misuse this text in accusing others in the body of Christ of being Accusers of the Brethren. How pleased the devil is when we make his case for him.

 

[statrei]

I doubt that there is too much doubt in heaven now that the Son of God was crucified on the cross of calvary.

What does remain though is that there will be many surprises as to who is in heaven and who is not there.

There will be no surprises in heaven. I wonder who was that brilliant theologian who came up with that idea. If you find yourself surprised after the Resurrection you can bet that you are not in heaven.

 

[Cliff2]

There will be no surprises in heaven. I wonder who was that brilliant theologian who came up with that idea. If you find yourself surprised after the Resurrection you can bet that you are not in heaven.

We will just have to wait and seee on that one.

 

[statrei]

We will just have to wait and seee on that one.

Think about it. If you are in heaven it is because you understand the love and justice of God. How can you be surprised?

 

[Cliff2]

Think about it. If you are in heaven it is because you understand the love and justice of God. How can you be surprised?

Romans 2 (King James Version)

"14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel"


These people are going to be surprised, they are Gentiles who do not even have the law and never heard of it but will be in heaven followed their conscience. We maybe even surprised that who will be in that group. I have no prior knowledge as to who they are, it will be full of surprises for everyone.

 

[statrei]

Romans 2 (King James Version)

"14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel"


These people are going to be surprised, they are Gentiles who do not even have the law and never heard of it but will be in heaven followed their conscience. We maybe even surprised that who will be in that group. I have no prior knowledge as to who they are, it will be full of surprises for everyone.

Let's just say we have different ideas as to what is involved in the element of surprise, not to mention the person of the Creator.