Forgiveness...

[StormyOne]

Some texts to think about:

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Psa 103:10-13 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. (11) For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. (12) As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. (13) Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jer 50:20 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Lastly these:

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Rom 3:21-25 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Questions: (these are not asked to start a debate because I am not permitted to debate, just to ponder/think about)

If God has promised to forgive our sins, and remember them no more, and because our righteousness is like filthy rags, thus we are covered by the righteousness of Chirst, what is there to review in the life of the follower of Christ in the pre-advent judgment?

There are no sins, because they have been forgiven, not to be remembered. There are no works (by the believer) because Christ's righteousness is covering our righteousness so what is being reviewed?

 

[nixxnaxx1]

If God has promised to forgive our sins, and remember them no more, and because our righteousness is like filthy rags, thus we are covered by the righteousness of Chirst, what is there to review in the life of the follower of Christ in the pre-advent judgment?

There are no sins, because they have been forgiven, not to be remembered. There are no works (by the believer) because Christ's righteousness is covering our righteousness so what is being reviewed?

Stormy, I sit here in a little shock. Maybe a big shock, because I have never looked at those verses before. I mean I have read them over and over and claimed I believe them, but in light of this question, it seems that I was seeing through a glass darkly.
I would have no idea what then is being reviewed. If those are gone, why would they be brought back to rememberance?

 

[SassySDA]

Stormy, I sit here in a little shock. Maybe a big shock, because I have never looked at those verses before. I mean I have read them over and over and claimed I believe them, but in light of this question, it seems that I was seeing through a glass darkly.
I would have no idea what then is being reviewed. If those are gone, why would they be brought back to rememberance?

PAST sins are the ones that won't be remembered. Christ promises NOT to remember them.

But to say that because we are covered by His righteousness means there is no more sin, is a very scary thing. There are people out there who believe just that.

I believe that we are covered by His righteousness, absolutely. But that doesn't mean that what is underneath that covering is any less human. I attempt everyday to love Him, and obey Him, but as I AM human, I stumble and fall. I don't know of anyone who doesn't. Because He died for me, and paid for my sins, doesn't mean I don't have to ask His forgiveness when I stumble. To think otherwise is dangerous. For people to believe that because they are covered in his righteousness they don't have to worry about any future sins they commit, would give them the thought that they have absolutely NOTHING to worry about no matter what they do. There's too much of that going around as it is.

To believe that my Lord came here, as a human, allowed Himself, (yes, allowed for He could have stopped it at any time had He chosen to do His will instead of His father's) to experience the most horrific beating a human could ever attempt to withstand, and die one of the most hideous deaths to cover us in His righteousness, only to say, "flee before me, go forth and do whatever you wish because the law exists no more. The commandments were nailed to that cross with me", to me, is to spit in His face.

I am one who not only wants her Savior, she wants her Lord. I obey Him because I AM saved, and I do so willingly and joyfully. His law is not grievous to me.

His law is a "mirror" for me to see my sin in. Before I was saved, I would look at something my neighbor had, and I would want it, I would covet it. To do so didn't bother me in the least. That was BEFORE. Now that I am a saved, follower of Jesus Christ...the minute that old habit creeps in to my head/heart, I see it for the sin that it is. I immediately feel badly and ask for His forgiveness, and strength to overcome that habit. Without His law, I'm not sure it would bother my conscience enough to acknowledge it.

Yes, I am covered in His righteousness, praise God, but this human is STILL responsible for her actions.

 

[StormyOne]

When we stumble and fall, we ask for forgiveness, He forgives. Even our best we come up short His righteousness covers us.

I did not write anything about sinning without asking for forgiveness, or disregarding the commandments, or that since Christ covers us there is no more sin. The very first verse I posted 1 John 1:9 states it clearly....

If we confess He forgives and remembers them no more. If they are not remembered they cannot be held against us. Thus those sins do not surface in any judgment...

 

[honorthesabbath]

Here are also some scriptures that we should carefully consider.

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


There IS a pre-advent judgement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[HoneyDew]

I am going to prayerfully approach this one. Get back to the Bible and weigh it all. I see there is much to learn, and relearn. Thanks, guys!

 

[SassySDA]

When we stumble and fall, we ask for forgiveness, He forgives. Even our best we come up short His righteousness covers us.

I did not write anything about sinning without asking for forgiveness, or disregarding the commandments, or that since Christ covers us there is no more sin. The very first verse I posted 1 John 1:9 states it clearly....

If we confess He forgives and remembers them no more. If they are not remembered they cannot be held against us. Thus those sins do not surface in any judgment...

I have no idea what your point is then...it may have been the print and the font size, I don't know. I do admit to struggling greatly trying to read it.

The message I got was what I answered to.

 

[SassySDA]

I have no idea what your point is then...it may have been the print and the font size, I don't know. I do admit to struggling greatly trying to read it.

The message I got was what I answered to.

Oh and thanks for changing the layout. Much easier to read.

 

[StormyOne]

The point was when we ask for forgiveness of our sins we are forgiven. Because our righteousness is not worthy, Christ covers us with His righteousness. If in the pre-advent judgment the believer is reviewed, what is there to review? Christ's righteousness has covered our inadequate righteousness, and there are no sins because they have been forgiven per our asking.... so a believers record contains nothing except Christ's sacrifice, righteousness, and forgiveness... that was my question/point.....

 

[honorthesabbath]

The point was when we ask for forgiveness of our sins we are forgiven. Because our righteousness is not worthy, Christ covers us with His righteousness. If in the pre-advent judgment the believer is reviewed, what is there to review? Christ's righteousness has covered our inadequate righteousness, and there are no sins because they have been forgiven per our asking.... so a believers record contains nothing except Christ's sacrifice, righteousness, and forgiveness... that was my question/point.....

Stormy--keep in mind that the pre-advent is not only to determine destinies--but REWARDS as well. Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[smooze]

Philippians 3:1-11
No Confidence in the Flesh
1Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you.

2Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

 

[Cliff2]

The point was when we ask for forgiveness of our sins we are forgiven. Because our righteousness is not worthy, Christ covers us with His righteousness. If in the pre-advent judgment the believer is reviewed, what is there to review? Christ's righteousness has covered our inadequate righteousness, and there are no sins because they have been forgiven per our asking.... so a believers record contains nothing except Christ's sacrifice, righteousness, and forgiveness... that was my question/point.....

The issue of the Investigative Jedgement is the greatest issue that faces the Seventh-day Adventist Church today.

If that is shown to be wrong and cannot be supported by Scripture and Scripture alone then we are no different to any other Sabbath keeping Christian Church.

Then it also comes down to, why even keep the Sabbath?

If we are wrong on the Investigative Judegement then we may also be wrong on lots of other doctrines.

Well I just happen to believe that we are right and all else does will not fall because we have been wrong on the IJ.

One has to go back to the Children of Israel and even before that, back to Eden.

When Adam & Eve sinned and God came down to see them. God asked them questions. Does that mean that God did not know what they had been doing?

No.

When Cain killed Able God also asked Cain some questions. Does that mean God did not know what had happened to Able?

No.

So what does it all mean.

When God passes judgement, God always investigates before judgement is passed.

So why does God follow this procedure?

there are unfallen beings, angels and being on other worlds that need to see that God is just. This process can only be done with an investigation.

Now God does know the end from the beginning. So God could have a judgement where He says "saved" or "lost" for everyone that has ever lived.

God would not make a mistake but would that solve the sin problem?

No, people would always obey but not with love.

It has all to do with the sin problem.

Now going back to the Children of Israel we need to look at the sacrificial system.

When did the sinner receive forgiveness? Was it when the animal was killed or was it when the priest apllied the blood?

It was not at the death of the animal but when the blood was applied.

Were the sins dones away with right the?

No.

At the day of atonement they were transfered to the animal that was taken out into the wilderness where it died.

That also represents Satan. The sins of the righteous are placed unpon Satan and he is punished for the sins of the righteous.

That is when they go to the bottom of the sea as it were.

In heaven Jesus will wipe away tears and it says the memory of them is no more. People will ask what happened to Mr or Mrs so and so, they were leaders in the Church. God has a record and the tears are wiped away again.

Each generation has always had someone that thinks there is no judegment or investigative judgement. There is going to be one and it starts at the house of God. That is the "Church".

 

[Cliff2]

Click here for more info on the Judgement

 

[SassySDA]

The issue of the Investigative Jedgement is the greatest issue that faces the Seventh-day Adventist Church today.

If that is shown to be wrong and cannot be supported by Scripture and Scripture alone then we are no different to any other Sabbath keeping Christian Church.

Then it also comes down to, why even keep the Sabbath?

If we are wrong on the Investigative Judegement then we may also be wrong on lots of other doctrines.

Well I just happen to believe that we are right and all else does will not fall because we have been wrong on the IJ.

One has to go back to the Children of Israel and even before that, back to Eden.

When Adam & Eve sinned and God came down to see them. God asked them questions. Does that mean that God did not know what they had been doing?

No.

When Cain killed Able God also asked Cain some questions. Does that mean God did not know what had happened to Able?

No.

So what does it all mean.

When God passes judgement, God always investigates before judgement is passed.

So why does God follow this procedure?

there are unfallen beings, angels and being on other worlds that need to see that God is just. This process can only be done with an investigation.

Now God does know the end from the beginning. So God could have a judgement where He says "saved" or "lost" for everyone that has ever lived.

God would not make a mistake but would that solve the sin problem?

No, people would always obey but not with love.

It has all to do with the sin problem.

Now going back to the Children of Israel we need to look at the sacrificial system.

When did the sinner receive forgiveness? Was it when the animal was killed or was it when the priest apllied the blood?

It was not at the death of the animal but when the blood was applied.

Were the sins dones away with right the?

No.

At the day of atonement they were transfered to the animal that was taken out into the wilderness where it died.

That also represents Satan. The sins of the righteous are placed unpon Satan and he is punished for the sins of the righteous.

That is when they go to the bottom of the sea as it were.

In heaven Jesus will wipe away tears and it says the memory of them is no more. People will ask what happened to Mr or Mrs so and so, they were leaders in the Church. God has a record and the tears are wiped away again.

Each generation has always had someone that thinks there is no judegment or investigative judgement. There is going to be one and it starts at the house of God. That is the "Church".

Great post, cliff. Now I finally understand what he was getting at.

 

[Believer-in-Christ]

I think God remembers alright but such is his great love for us that he will cast our sins away so they will not hinder us. Once sin is forgiven it is no longer an issue and we should not worry about it anymore. I know that's easier said than done. Personally I really have trouble not worrying about things.

 

[Cliff2]

I think God remembers alright but such is his great love for us that he will cast our sins away so they will not hinder us. Once sin is forgiven it is no longer an issue and we should not worry about it anymore. I know that's easier said than done. Personally I really have trouble not worrying about things.

You also have to take into account that if every record of ones sin was put aside and God did not remember them again, then what happens when one accepts Christ as their Lord and Saviour and is converted.

This happens all the time and then that person chosse to no longer walk with the Lord.

What happens to the persons previous sins if God has got rid of them now?

There are many problems with that type of reasoning.

The sins go forever, but not right now. You do not have to be concerned with them now. You are covered and saved right now. Your sins are right out of the way as far as you are concerned.

They will be cast to the bottom of the sea as it were to be remembered no more.

Here is another thing to think about. God knows each heart, I do not, other church members do not.

 

[StormyOne]

You are missing what I am saying. I have not said that there is no IJ. I have asked if the believer is covered by the righteousness of Christ (and adventists do believe in Righteousness by faith) and confessed sins are forgiven, what is there to review?

In an investigation something has to be reviewed, if the believer is covered, and forgiven then there can't be anything on the "record."

As for the unfallen worlds, they would know that God is just, and such is a non issue.


So either we are covered, or we aren't. Either we are forgiven or we aren't...


EGW suggests that Christ's character takes the place of our character and we are accepted before God just as if we had not sinned... if that is the case, the only thing on our record is Christ... but, I could be wrong...

 

[Cliff2]

As for the unfallen worlds, they would know that God is just, and such is a non issue.

That is an issue, the angels and the unfallen need to know that God is just beyond all doubt. As well as the righteous that will go to heaven.

So either we are covered, or we aren't. Either we are forgiven or we aren't...


EGW suggests that Christ's character takes the place of our character and we are accepted before God just as if we had not sinned... if that is the case, the only thing on our record is Christ... but, I could be wrong...

Correct, that does not take away from anything I have stated.

 

[Believer-in-Christ]

We must cast aside our fears because God will protect us from evil. We only need to fear God Himself. He has complete control and ownership over our lives. We must try our best not to abuse our free will. God will not stop us from doing what we like but he will let us experience the consequinces of our actions.

 

[Cliff2]

We must cast aside our fears because God will protect us from evil. We only need to fear God Himself. He has complete control and ownership over our lives. We must try our best not to abuse our free will. God will not stop us from doing what we like but he will let us experience the consequinces of our actions.

There is far more truth in the last sentance than many would would acknowledge.

God will not stop us from doing what we like but he will let us experience the consequinces of our actions.

Click here for more info about the "Results of Disobedience"