Fallen

[oioimoi]

I feel that religion offers life of righteous hardships in the name of "higher goals". Its nice and perfect.But it drains all the joy from current life, to fuel this idealistic lifestyle.

Seeing it, I guess I know why Lucifer had fallen. He couldn't bare the hardships of service to the divine goals, so he commited a spiritual suicide.

I myself am ex an believer and I feel that religion is a voluntary "mini hell" I cannot accept.

 

[Shempster]

You do well to look at religion that way. Look at it like government. Their #1 goal is ultimately to control you.
This does not necessarily apply to any group or person. Its more of the formal organization.
You probably resent the harsh code of behaviors that were imposed on you. I have been there. The first protestant church I ever went to were holiness folks. No matter what one did, you were breaking some sort of rule. It got real old real fast.

The biggest issue is that the organized church misrepresents the Creator. Its really strange how there are thousands of views of God (41,000 denominations right now) and all are obtained from the same book...the bible.
What may take you a lifetime to figure out is that the bible allows for all sorts of misuse. It allows for murder, incest, slavery, racism, judgementalism, and a wide host of other sins IF you are looking for it. If you are looking for a God of vengeance that will smite your enemies and throw them into a cauldron of oil to burn for all eternity then you will find it.

If you read the bible and sense the kind, benevolent, forgiving nature of God then you will find that as well.
Don't be too hard on folks. Many of them just repeat what they are told.
Look for the real spirit of Christ. Don't worry about what another person dumps on you.
Ask the Father to reveal Himself to you and He will....provided you are "tuned in" to the right frequency.

We are radios. There are many stations broadcasting in the airwaves of the words in the word. All you have to do is "tune in" to the LOVE channel and you'll be on your way.

Bless up.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I feel that religion offers life of righteous hardships in the name of "higher goals". Its nice and perfect.But it drains all the joy from current life, to fuel this idealistic lifestyle.

Seeing it, I guess I know why Lucifer had fallen. He couldn't bare the hardships of service to the divine goals, so he commited a spiritual suicide.

I myself am ex an believer and I feel that religion is a voluntary "mini hell" I cannot accept.

Sure, at times we find that we have to "bear the Cross" in order to move ahead in our spiritual lives. But, in my own life, I don't perceive that anything I have had to give up was something that I really needed for my peace and wellbeing.

So, oioimoi, what things bring you "joy" which religion asks you to forgo?

2PhiloVoid

 

[J. Elias]

I feel that religion offers life of righteous hardships in the name of "higher goals". Its nice and perfect.But it drains all the joy from current life, to fuel this idealistic lifestyle.

Seeing it, I guess I know why Lucifer had fallen. He couldn't bare the hardships of service to the divine goals, so he commited a spiritual suicide.

I myself am ex an believer and I feel that religion is a voluntary "mini hell" I cannot accept.

Humm...interesting. Could you elaborate on that a little more? What exactly do you feel religion robs us of? By "religion" do you mean "belief in a God, and one's expression of it" or "an organized, congregational system of beliefs and rituals associated with belief in a particular deity?"

 

[The Cadet]

You do well to look at religion that way. Look at it like government. Their #1 goal is ultimately to control you.

Wut

 

[DogmaHunter]

So, oioimoi, what things bring you "joy" which religion asks you to forgo?

Critical thinking.
And being free from the clutches of unquestionable dogma.

 

[miknik5]

I feel that religion offers life of righteous hardships in the name of "higher goals". Its nice and perfect.But it drains all the joy from current life, to fuel this idealistic lifestyle.

Seeing it, I guess I know why Lucifer had fallen. He couldn't bare the hardships of service to the divine goals, so he commited a spiritual suicide.

I myself am ex an believer and I feel that religion is a voluntary "mini hell" I cannot accept.

Lucifer was supposed to be a covering angel. He didn't do his initial work of covering. Because he was more interested in serving and exalting himself

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Critical thinking.
And being free from the clutches of unquestionable dogma.

That's interesting. I don't find that Christianity hampers my enjoyment of critical thinking in the least. Although I do have to admit that there are certain 'styles' of Christian belief that cause me to cringe due to their "unquestionable dogma."

2PhiloVoid

 

[DogmaHunter]

That's interesting. I don't find that Christianity hampers my enjoyment of critical thinking in the least. Although I do have to admit that there are certain 'styles' of Christian belief that cause me to cringe due to their "unquestionable dogma."

2PhiloVoid

I don't know of a single "version" of christianity (or any other theistic religion, for that matter) that doesn't include unquestionable dogma.

And the presence of unquestionable dogma, always stands in the way of critical thinking.

 

[oioimoi]

Humm...interesting. Could you elaborate on that a little more? What exactly do you feel religion robs us of? By "religion" do you mean "belief in a God, and one's expression of it" or "an organized, congregational system of beliefs and rituals associated with belief in a particular deity?"

You cant really persue pleasure being religious. Firstly it is a sin and secondly if you believe religion its punishable by torture. Almost all religions have hell temporary or not. By religion I mean all existing ones. They are extremely similar. Hell, heaven, saints and demons.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't know of a single "version" of christianity (or any other theistic religion, for that matter) that doesn't include unquestionable dogma.

And the presence of unquestionable dogma, always stands in the way of critical thinking.

So, does this mean that I'm not a Christian since I don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve, or a literal Hell, or the typical Rapture Theory, or in the use of a Rosary and the Hail Mary Prayer? Somehow, I don't think so.

Does this mean that as a Christian, I have to throw away my books on evolution, cosmology, or philosophy and argumentation? Somehow, I don't think so.

Does this mean that my chasing and earning a degree in Philosophy was a sinful mistake, since I opt to be a Christian? Somehow, I don't think so.

Does this mean that having sex with my wife is an unwarranted form of enjoyment in life? Somehow, I don't think so.

Does this mean that I have to forgo the use of Porn, visitation to Stripclubs, or casual Hook-ups? Well...yes, it kind of does? But I didn't really find any "joy" in those things anyway.

The fully dogmatic approach to Christian faith is a choice, one unfortunately made by various people who claim to be Christian, and who by chance happen to be leaders in the various Christian denominations and movements. But, I dare to question their authority (as Jesus and the Apostles said that I should).

2PhiloVoid

 

[miknik5]

So, does this mean that I'm not a Christian since I don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve, or a literal Hell, or the typical Rapture Theory, or in the use of a Rosary and the Hail Mary Prayer? Somehow, I don't think so.

Does this mean that as a Christian, I have to throw away my books on evolution, cosmology, or philosophy and argumentation? Somehow, I don't think so.

Does this mean that my chasing and earning a degree in Philosophy was a sinful mistake, since I opt to be a Christian? Somehow, I don't think so.

Does this mean that having sex with my wife is an unwarranted form of enjoyment in life? Somehow, I don't think so.

Does this mean that I have to forgo the use of Porn, visitation to Stripclubs, or casual Hook-ups? Well...yes, it kind of does? But I didn't really find any "joy" in those things anyway.

The fully dogmatic approach to Christian faith is a choice, one unfortunately made by various people who claim to be Christian, and who by chance happen to be leaders in the various Christian denominations and movements. But, I dare to question their authority (as Jesus and the Apostles said that I should).

2PhiloVoid

Do you believe in The Gospel?
Do you believe that Christ is The Foundation and Head of His Body and there is only salvation in His Name?

 

[miknik5]

2Philovoid, in your testimony of yourself, you used the word "Unfortunately" for others?

Anyone who chooses to follow Christ will Not be disappointed!

Even those who believe in His Name

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Do you believe in The Gospel?
Do you believe that Christ is The Foundation and Head of His Body and there is only salvation in His Name?

Sure. Why wouldn't I? And... in relation to the OP, by my believing in these things, how would that curtail my "joy" in life?

Believing that Christ is identified as the Foundation and Singular Head of our faith doesn't seem to encroach directly upon my "joy"; rather, in some way, it enhances it. But, this psychosomatic response will likely be different for each individual. Some people might actually find the most "joy" by being atheistic and racking up a sexual body count. Sad, but true.

2PhiloVoid

 

[2PhiloVoid]

2Philovoid, in your testimony of yourself, you used the word "Unfortunately" for others?

Anyone who chooses to follow Christ will Not be disappointed!

Even those who believe in His Name

Well, the ratio of joy/disappointment might depend on a person's willingness, and preparedness, to "Carry their Cross" as a portion of living one's Christian faith. This is not a light undertaking, miknik5, and it isn't something many people count on really having to do.

...And yes, "unfortunately," various Christians, whether they be licensed leaders or not, can still make epistemological, ethical, and even theological mistakes when attempting to "teach the sheep."

As for myself, I don't claim to be "mistake free"; there are always further evaluations that can be made in life about a great many things.

2PhiloVoid

 

[miknik5]

Sure. Why wouldn't I? And... in relation to the OP, by my believing in these things, how would that curtail my "joy" in life?

Believing that Christ is identified as the Foundation and Singular Head of our faith doesn't seem to encroach directly upon my "joy"; rather, in some way, it enhances it. But, this psychosomatic response will likely be different for each individual. Some people might actually find the most "joy" by being atheistic and racking up a sexual body count. Sad, but true.

2PhiloVoid

Have that to yourself. Thst really isn't the Joy (of salvation) which He was speaking of sir.

All things Are permissible. That certainly is true. But it's all food for the body

There's another FOOD He pointed us to. Seek that alone and all these other little "joys" will be given as well

 

[DogmaHunter]

So, does this mean that I'm not a Christian since I don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve, or a literal Hell, or the typical Rapture Theory, or in the use of a Rosary and the Hail Mary Prayer? Somehow, I don't think so.

I don't seem to remember saying any of this.

Does this mean that as a Christian, I have to throw away my books on evolution, cosmology, or philosophy and argumentation? Somehow, I don't think so.

I don't seem to remember saying any of this either.

Does this mean that my chasing and earning a degree in Philosophy was a sinful mistake, since I opt to be a Christian? Somehow, I don't think so.

Nope, didn't say that either.

Does this mean that having sex with my wife is an unwarranted form of enjoyment in life? Somehow, I don't think so.

Once more, I don't remember saying that either.

Does this mean that I have to forgo the use of Porn, visitation to Stripclubs, or casual Hook-ups? Well...yes, it kind of does? But I didn't really find any "joy" in those things anyway.

The fully dogmatic approach to Christian faith is a choice, one unfortunately made by various people who claim to be Christian, and who by chance happen to be leaders in the various Christian denominations and movements. But, I dare to question their authority (as Jesus and the Apostles said that I should).

2PhiloVoid

I don't seem to remember to make a distinction between "fully" dogmatic and "partially" dogmatic either.


I think it's rather obvious that there are a few general central themes / claims that every christian MUST believe. Otherwise, the term "christian" is rather meaningless, isn't it?

Don't tell me that you need me, an atheist, to inform you what those central themes/claims are.


Obviously, the more fundamentalistic the approach, the more dogmatic it will get.

 

[miknik5]

Well, the ratio of joy/disappointment might depend on a person's willingness, and preparedness, to "Carry their Cross" as a portion of living one's Christian faith. This is not a light undertaking, miknik5, and it isn't something many people count on really having to do.

...And yes, "unfortunately," various Christians, whether they be licensed leaders or not, can still make epistemological, ethical, and even theological mistakes when attempting to "teach the sheep."

As for myself, I don't claim to be "mistake free"; there are always further evaluations that can be made in life about a great many things.

2PhiloVoid

Whst are you teaching HIS SHEEP sir

That is what you should concern yourself with alone

HE will judge between the full and fat and fed sheep from the baby lambs who trail behind those fat and filled and fed sheep

Let's make sure that the fat and filled and fed sheep are feeding babies what is pure and needed and not things that are things

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Whst are you teaching HIS SHEEP sir

That is what you should concern yourself with alone

HE will judge between the full and fat and fed sheep from the baby lambs who trail behind those fat and filled and fed sheep

Let's make sure that the fat and filled and fed sheep are feeding babies what is pure and needed and not things that are things

You're missing the point of the OP, miknik5. That is what we are here to discuss on this thread.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't seem to remember saying any of this.

I didn’t say that you said any of those things. I’m merely drawing out some various ideas which some Christians actually do hold on a dogmatic level, even to the point of accusing other Christians of being heretical if not adhered to.

I don't seem to remember saying any of this either.

Again, I’m not saying that you did say any of these things. But my point, even though it is in response to you, is also being made in relation to the OP.

Nope, didn't say that either.

Well, then. Does your view of “critical thinking” not involve some philosophy and/or argumentation (logic). And you implied in your previous posts that religion seems to curtail critical thinking by its very nature. If I’m not correct here, do you care to elaborate in relation to what the OP is talking about (i.e. a person's having joy or not)?

Once more, I don't remember saying that either.

And once more, I’m not saying ‘you did’; I’m throwing examples out there that have historical significance. Some Christians in past history have thought that enjoying sex with one's spouse is, if not sinful, then nearly so.

Does this mean that I have to forgo the use of Porn, visitation to Stripclubs, or casual Hook-ups? Well...yes, it kind of does? But I didn't really find any "joy" in those things anyway.

I don't seem to remember to make a distinction between "fully" dogmatic and "partially" dogmatic either.

What distinction(s) about Christian dogmatism would you like to make then?

I think it's rather obvious that there are a few general central themes / claims that every christian MUST believe. Otherwise, the term "christian" is rather meaningless, isn't it?

Sure. But the central element of evaluation here is in considering which of those specific ‘dogmas’ actually tear into a person’s having “joy” in this life. Does believing Jesus rose from the dead inhibit my lifestyle or my joy? I don’t think so. Does Jesus/God’s command to live a holy life inhibit my lifestyle? Yes, I think so. Does this also inhibit my joy? That depends on what kinds of things are presently bringing a person joy. Some things that bring some people joy are socially problematic, at best.

Don't tell me that you need me, an atheist, to inform you what those central themes/claims are.

Which one’s do you think are indispensable? I’d like to know your perception about this.

Obviously

, the more fundamentalistic the approach, the more dogmatic it will get.

Yes, obviously. And much of that dogmatism is a choice made by Christians. Some of it unnecessarily, I might add.

2PhiloVoid