Can you be good without God?

[Hikarifuru]

No, see my post to Todd, if the Christian God exists then there is objective morality based on His objectively existing moral character. I didn't say it was necessary to have personal morals but it is necessary to have universal morals that apply to everyone.



No, God has never tortured, burned, raped or starved people. He has allowed evil people and beings to do such things but He has never directly done those things.



Where?




No, that is a prophecy or prediction of what is going to happen to them. God did not command it. He just allowed the evil Persians to do that to Babylon because of their evil deeds especially to His representatives on earth, ie the hebrews.



No, read the Declaration of Independence, the USA was founded as a theistic nation based on the Biblical God's moral laws. Most of the most important principles of our government are derived from biblical principles such as human rights, equality, freedom of conscience and etc. I never said all religions are good, I said primarily only Christianity is good, though some religions have some good teachings most of them fall far short of Christianity in producing good in the world.

That the gods character is moral and that anyone should care what the god is or thinks merely another opinion, just like my moral system is my opinion. But because my opinion exists it doesn't require god.

The god of bible SENT plagues, struck people down, sent snakes, caused floods, commanded fathers to burn their daughters, sent armies to kill. Yes he did cause those things.

If you actually read Isaiah 13 for yourself you repeatedly hear the prophet saying for god "I am doing this" "my army" "my day" "my wrath" "I will bring" " I will cause" on and on.

The Declaration of independence is not a founding document, it only separated us from england. The Constitution is our founding document and it has nothing to do with god, much less the Christian one and it actually built a wall between religion and the state.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Really? Those millions of children who perish terribly every year, while he stands idly by? If you or I could save even one of those children from a horrible death, we would do so.

Because we aren't indifferent about their plight.

"But it's all part of the plan!"

 

[Hikarifuru]

No, it is not God's opinion. His moral law is based on His objectively existing moral character which exists outside of humanity. God has never raped, murdered, or burned people. And you do not have any objective standard by which to judge what is actually good. What you think is good is just based on your feelings, just like Stalins. So there is no real difference between your morality and his other than you may allow more homo sapiens to survive.

Yes it is god's opinion, it is only your opinion that his character is actually good at all or that his ideas even matter. The bible god repeatedly raped killed burn and starved. Yes I am using my feelings and objective morality does not exist and is not necessary. The difference between me and you is that I actually have my own reasons for not killing like Stalin did, you see no reason to without a god or some authority figure, that makes you like Stalin.

 

[SteveB28]

"But it's all part of the plan!"

Yes, that will be one of the bleating excuses offered, I'm sure.

But it stands as an example of a comment I made elsewhere to the effect that religious dogma is frequently anathema to human morality.

 

[MennoSota]

I do. Don't you?



Did it ever occur to you that "getting the most out of life" might include caring about those around you!?



You religious folk certainly have a dread of death, don't you?

The molecules that make up you, don't care.

The fact that you care is a proof of God's existence.

 

[FireDragon76]

But it stands as an example of a comment I made elsewhere to the effect that religious dogma is frequently anathema to human morality.

Are you saying Christians are OK with indifference to suffering? At the churches I have attended, there are always prayers for those who suffer, and priests or pastors commend works of mercy for those who are suffering or who face economic problems.

In Orlando, at many of the downtown churches, in the winter when it gets cold, homeless people are free to sit in the pews... and nobody asks them to leave. I know of a lot of Christians that run food pantries, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and provide counselling to low-income people. I don't know of any secular organizations that do these things- if anything the city opposes many of these activities. It's all churches downtown providing it. It seems to me "religious" morality is pretty good, much better than a city's secular morality that says making money for businesses is the bottom line.

 

[MennoSota]

Really? Those millions of children who perish terribly every year, while he stands idly by? If you or I could save even one of those children from a horrible death, we would do so.

Because we aren't indifferent about their plight.

What are the odds you support abortion?

Should God exact his justice on every person who supports such a heinous act of savagery?

God is Sovereign and His choice of action is above our judgment. The fact that He pardons and reconciles anyone is an act of amazing grace. Yet, you pine for his immediate judgment on sin. Do you not see how you condemn yourself?

 

[Hikarifuru]

Are you saying Christians are OK with indifference to suffering? At the churches I have attended, there are always prayers for those who suffer, and priests or pastors commend works of mercy for those who are suffering or who face economic problems.

In Orlando, at many of the downtown churches, in the winter when it gets cold, homeless people are free to sit in the pews... and nobody asks them to leave. I know of a lot of Christians that run food pantries, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and provide counselling to low-income people. I don't know of any secular organizations that do these things- if anything the city opposes many of these activities. It's all churches downtown providing it. It seems to me "religious" morality is pretty good, much better than a city's secular morality that says making money for businesses is the bottom line.

The religious dilemma provided here, that such suffering is not important unless gods exist does provide an indifference to the suffering itself and prayers are not help, but rather an inclination to the opposite of help.

I do think religion causes an indifference to suffering because they support suffering when it's caused by the god and the commonly blame the suffering person for the suffering.

 

[Davian]

Are you saying Christians are OK with indifference to suffering? At the churches I have attended, there are always prayers for those who suffer, and priests or pastors commend works of mercy for those who are suffering or who face economic problems.

And what do prayers accomplish?

In Orlando, at many of the downtown churches, in the winter when it gets cold, homeless people are free to sit in the pews... and nobody asks them to leave. I know of a lot of Christians that run food pantries, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and provide counselling to low-income people. I don't know of any secular organizations that do these things- if anything the city opposes many of these activities. It's all churches downtown providing it. It seems to me "religious" morality is pretty good, much better than a city's secular morality that says making money for businesses is the bottom line.

It's good to see the religion machine take a tiny portion of the billions of tax-free dollars that it takes in every year and use it for something other than to perpetuate itself.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I didn't say God's morality is external to Him, but it is external to us. It exists as His moral character which is the state or quality of being true even outside of humanity's biases, interpretations, feelings and imaginings.

You don't seem to be understanding what objective morality is.

Every being with morals bases those morals on either objective or subjective principals, such as "stealing for personal gain is wrong because it causes suffering". If those principals are objective, they exist outside any being's opinion, i.e. if any being, god or man, says that stealing for personal gain is a good thing, they're wrong by definition. Again, that's what objective means.

"Character" is just the set of opinions we hold about moral principles. So a person's character is internal, but that's not what we are talking about in regards to objective morality. We're talking about the principals, which are necessarily external if morality is objective. Because again, that's what objective means.

This is true because ALL humans are created in the image (which includes a moral conscience) of the Christian God so it is expected that there would be an underlying commonality of human morality similar to God's moral laws.

Or not, if there isn't a god or gods. Evolution seems sufficient to explain intersubjectivity in regards to morals.

See above, my statement about atheists not having an objective morality stands.

While I believe all morality is subjective, there are those who claim a secular objective morality exists.

I am not denying the reality of opinions in a subjective sense. But they do not exist in an objective sense. Ie they are influenced by your various bias and etc. See your own definition above.

You said that if morality is not objective it doesn't exist. I'm pointing out that your statement is demonstrably false, because opinions objectively exist. As in, opinions exist whether or not people believe they exist. Again, and hopefully for the last time, that's what objective means...

 

[Eudaimonist]

You've assigned something "meaning" in the here and now, but we know that once we and the universe cease to exist, it won't have any meaning whatsoever (probably long before then, actually).

You have not shown that life is meaningless (or that meaning is illusory) right now. You keep talking about the distant future, as if that matters somehow. It doesn't matter if life doesn't have meaning after life ceases to exist. That is utterly irrelevant.

So actually the "meaning" that you've assigned to it here and now is an illusion that you've created. The event really has no meaning whatsoever. That is reality.

There is a step missing in your argument. How does meaninglessness in a future context make meaning "an illusion" in the present context? If that "is reality", you have not actually made a proper case to draw that conclusion.

You won't have a mind after you're dead, according to your worldview. So you can't permanently conclude anything.

If I will never have any reason to change my mind, that is a permanent decision in a human context. You are just engaging in sophistry here by trying to apply the non-human to the human.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

You are missing the point. It is not about "length" of life. It is about the fact that after you die. Everything about you cease to exist. Your consciousness, memories, personality, including your precious little experiences. Why worry about your experiences when they will cease to exist along with your consciousness after you die?

Because they exist now. And for the rest of time, I will have existed and led a human life. That is enough.

Why are you such an ardent nihilist?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

The molecules that make up you, don't care.

Yes, they do care. They care collectively as a living, thinking, feeling human being.

These properties emerge from a complex, dynamic molecular order. There is nothing divine about that. It's just something that happens in our amazing godless natural universe.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ToddNotTodd]

The fact that you care is a proof of God's existence.

You seriously need to pick up a basic book on logic.

 

[SteveB28]

The molecules that make up you, don't care.

The fact that you care is a proof of God's existence.

And who cares about my 'molecules'!?

I am the sum of my molecules. And that sum is a cogent, functioning organism with a brain, a memory, an intellect, an emotional framework.

And the 'caring' is evidence of those cerebral traits, plus the fact that I belong to a species that owes allegiance to the other members of that species with which it shares its life.

I understand that it's in your interest to try to reduce that truth to a very simplistic analysis ("you're nothing more than molecules without God")

But you're just wrong.

Very wrong. I feel a little bit sorry for you.

But only a little. Because you are an adult, so your ignorance is preserved wilfully......

 

[SteveB28]

Are you saying Christians are OK with indifference to suffering?

If you followed the lead of your God, you certainly would be.

At the churches I have attended, there are always prayers for those who suffer, and priests or pastors commend works of mercy for those who are suffering or who face economic problems.

Prayers achieve nothing, other than making the person involved feel that they are doing something helpful.

In Orlando, at many of the downtown churches, in the winter when it gets cold, homeless people are free to sit in the pews... and nobody asks them to leave. I know of a lot of Christians that run food pantries, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and provide counselling to low-income people. I don't know of any secular organizations that do these things- if anything the city opposes many of these activities. It's all churches downtown providing it. It seems to me "religious" morality is pretty good, much better than a city's secular morality that says making money for businesses is the bottom line.

What you are describing is secular morality - human beings caring for other human beings. There is nothing about that behaviour that requires a religious belief of any kind.

 

[SteveB28]

What are the odds you support abortion?

Should God exact his justice on every person who supports such a heinous act of savagery?

God is Sovereign and His choice of action is above our judgment. The fact that He pardons and reconciles anyone is an act of amazing grace. Yet, you pine for his immediate judgment on sin. Do you not see how you condemn yourself?

Who said anything about retribution for sin??

Your God stands idly by, every second of every day, while children die horrible deaths. He is supposed to be the all-powerful creator of the universe. He is supposed to be able to perform any feat by just 'speaking' it into action.

Yet he does nothing for these children. Ever.

You have two likelihoods - either he isn't concerned.....or he just isn't.

 

[MennoSota]

Who said anything about retribution for sin??

Your God stands idly by, every second of every day, while children die horrible deaths. He is supposed to be the all-powerful creator of the universe. He is supposed to be able to perform any feat by just 'speaking' it into action.

Yet he does nothing for these children. Ever.

You have two likelihoods - either he isn't concerned.....or he just isn't.

Nothing?

You, a finite person who can barely see past your nose, arrogantly say God does nothing, while you likely support the death and dismemberment of children in the womb.

There are many things that we do not comprehend or understand about God's plan, however, doing nothing is a foolish claim on your part. It is better if you state: "I cannot see" what God is doing. That would be more accurate. I would then ask you to share what you are doing to help these young ones. God calls people to work as His servants. Failure to work at what God calls you to do is an act of disobedience. If you know what to do and do not do it, this is a sin of omission. What are you doing?
I have a niece who is actively working to rescue children from sex slavers. She's in Germany working with the new refugees who are being kept in bondage. You arrogantly say "nothing" while God is actively working. Oh how I wish you weren't so blind.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Nothing?

You, a finite person who can barely see past your nose, arrogantly say God does nothing, while you likely support the death and dismemberment of children in the womb.

There are many things that we do not comprehend or understand about God's plan, however, doing nothing is a foolish claim on your part. It is better if you state: "I cannot see" what God is doing. That would be more accurate. I would then ask you to share what you are doing to help these young ones. God calls people to work as His servants. Failure to work at what God calls you to do is an act of disobedience. If you know what to do and do not do it, this is a sin of omission. What are you doing?
I have a niece who is actively working to rescue children from sex slavers. She's in Germany working with the new refugees who are being kept in bondage. You arrogantly say "nothing" while God is actively working. Oh how I wish you weren't so blind.

Actually what your god does is send the rapists to rape (sex slaves) kill the babies and the fathers Isaiah 13. Your god isn't worth the paper that book is printed on, please stop talking about how arrogant one would be for dismissing such nonsense.

 

[JCFantasy23]

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