Can anyone explain how the moth got it's owl eyes?

[Yttrium]

What word selection system? Remember, no goal

Something analogous to natural selection. No goal.

We see natural selection causing changes to population in nature. It's observable. We can hit populations with selection pressures in laboratory conditions and watch the population change a little over generations. The process of evolution is the change of frequency of genetic traits in a population over time/generations. Mutations and selection. It happens. Populations can change slightly. Give it a lot of time and many generations, and the changes can add up.

But frankly, your monkeys analogy is inappropriate in the first place. If you already had a script and the monkeys were just making a few copy errors each time, and various different selection pressures came in every now and then, you'd be a bit closer.

 

[AV1611VET]

Mutations and selection. It happens. Populations can change slightly. Give it a lot of time and many generations, and the changes can add up.

But frankly, your monkeys analogy is inappropriate in the first place. If you already had a script and the monkeys were just making a few copy errors each time, and various different selection pressures came in every now and then, you'd be a bit closer.

1. If they're so beneficial, why are they called "copy errors"?

2. Why did you call them "changes" in one paragraph, and "copy errors" in another?

 

[BCP1928]

1. If they're so beneficial, why are they called "copy errors"?

Because that's what they are, whether they are beneficial or not.

2. Why did you call them "changes" in one paragraph, and "copy errors" in another?

Because copy errors are changes, but not all changes are copy errors.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Do you stand by this?
“if we needed them, we would get them.”

Why is this a sticking point for you?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

They would?
Mutations are random, remember? Lol

Mutations are random... until the necessary mutation is selected by natural selection.

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

Something analogous to natural selection. No goal.

We see natural selection causing changes to population in nature. It's observable. We can hit populations with selection pressures in laboratory conditions and watch the population change a little over generations. The process of evolution is the change of frequency of genetic traits in a population over time/generations. Mutations and selection. It happens. Populations can change slightly. Give it a lot of time and many generations, and the changes can add up.

But frankly, your monkeys analogy is inappropriate in the first place. If you already had a script and the monkeys were just making a few copy errors each time, and various different selection pressures came in every now and then, you'd be a bit closer.

But What word selection system are you talking about?
The monkeys need to come up w one legible page which is what coming up with a single useful protein by chance would be.

 

[BCP1928]

But What word selection system are you talking about?
The monkeys need to come up w one legible page which is what coming up with a single useful protein by chance would be.

By chance? Doesn't happen. It comes about through an orderly series of chemical reactions, in an environment rich in peptides.

 

[Yttrium]

But What word selection system are you talking about?
The monkeys need to come up w one legible page which is what coming up with a single useful protein by chance would be.

Okay, I've been a bit confused about what you're trying to do here. Why are you trying to come up with a peptide again? Why is the legible page equivalent to the peptide? What part of the evolutionary process (mutations/selection) are we talking about here?

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

By chance? Doesn't happen. It comes about through an orderly series of chemical reactions, in an environment rich in peptides.

I’m talking about the sequence of nucleotides that are in a very very specific order that gets translated and comprises the protein, which is the monkey analogy. What put the sequence in place?

 

[Yttrium]

I’m talking about the sequence of nucleotides that are in a very very specific order that gets translated and comprises the protein, which is the monkey analogy. What put the sequence in place?

The parents' DNA had sequences in place. The child's DNA has some copy errors from those sequences. Not sure what you're imagining here.

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

The parents' DNA had sequences in place. The child's DNA has some copy errors from those sequences. Not sure what you're imagining here.

I’m talking about the origination of the sequence when the protein came into existence. Did you really think I was asking about child parent inheritance, are you for real?

 

[Yttrium]

I’m talking about the origination of the sequence when the protein came into existence. Did you really think I was asking about child parent inheritance, are you for real?

Well, yeah, because I'm not getting how a protein coming into existence relates to biologic evolution. The proteins are basically already there.

If you're talking about abiogenesis, that's a different topic. The process of evolution and the Theory of Evolution need a population of organisms to work with, by definition. Doesn't matter where that population came from. God, nature, aliens, time travel, whatever, you have a population of organisms, you have biologic evolution.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I’m talking about the origination of the sequence when the protein came into existence. Did you really think I was asking about child parent inheritance, are you for real?

In a post on the previous page (#454) I linked a video that discusses (about halfway through) a study where random protein sequences (truely random) a hundred amino acids long or so got selected for partial functionality. Purely random.

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

Well, yeah, because I'm not getting how a protein coming into existence relates to biologic evolution. The proteins are basically already there.

If you're talking about abiogenesis, that's a different topic. The process of evolution and the Theory of Evolution need a population of organisms to work with, by definition. Doesn't matter where that population came from. God, nature, aliens, time travel, whatever, you have a population of organisms, you have biologic evolution.

DNA is directly involved with evolution, you claim mutations in DNA are what create new mammals and body parts. I want to know how the nucleotide sequences got their order

 

[Yttrium]

DNA is directly involved with evolution, you claim mutations in DNA are what create new mammals and body parts. I want to know how the nucleotide sequences got their order

The sequences were already in order from the parents' DNA. New body parts and new mammals aren't born from parents. They come about from many generations of slight tweaks. You seem to think that evolution expects a parent to give birth to something very different at some point, and that's not the case. Evolution produces small changes that add up.

 

[AV1611VET]

Evolution produces small changes that add up.

Serious question:

Is lactose intolerance one of those small changes?

 

[BCP1928]

DNA is directly involved with evolution, you claim mutations in DNA are what create new mammals and body parts. I want to know how the nucleotide sequences got their order

It's still going to be by that action of natural forces. I wish you would give up on the faux incredulity and make your point, whatever it is.

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

The sequences were already in order from the parents' DNA. New body parts and new mammals aren't born from parents. They come about from many generations of slight tweaks. You seem to think that evolution expects a parent to give birth to something very different at some point, and that's not the case. Evolution produces small changes that add up.

“The sequences were already in order from the parents' DNA”
Really now, tell me something else that not everyone in the world already knows.
So the sequence just appeared one day out of thin air? How did the nucleotides get arranged to begin with?

 

[BCP1928]

“The sequences were already in order from the parents' DNA”
Really now, tell me something else that not everyone in the world already knows.
So the sequence just appeared one day out of thin air? How did the nucleotides get arranged to begin with?

Is there a point to all this? Do you think you are asking a trick question? What's the trick supposed to be?

 

[Ophiolite]

Serious question:

Is lactose intolerance one of those small changes?

You seem confused. Lactose intolerance is the norm in most mammals once they have weaned. Lactose tolerance evolved quite recently, possibly as an adaptation to periods of famine. I asked ChatGPT how many mutations were involved in this development. This is the response:

The development of lactose tolerance in humans is primarily due to a genetic mutation known as lactase persistence. Normally, the production of lactase, the enzyme responsible for breaking down lactose (the sugar found in milk), decreases after infancy. However, in populations with a long history of dairy farming, certain mutations have arisen that allow the production of lactase to continue into adulthood.

One of the most well-studied mutations associated with lactase persistence is the -13,910*T (rs4988235) variant located upstream of the lactase gene (LCT). This mutation is common in populations with a history of dairy farming, such as those of European descent. Other mutations, such as -13915*G and -22018*A, have also been associated with lactase persistence in different populations around the world.

These mutations result in the continued production of lactase, allowing individuals with lactase persistence to digest lactose throughout their lives. This adaptation likely provided a significant evolutionary advantage in populations where dairy farming was a major part of the diet.

I would call these small changes, but terms like large and small are qualitative and context sensitive. i.e. of limited value in a technical discussion.