Belief is belief is belief

[starbuck55]

Hi!
I'm an Agnostic and an atheist and the other day I did something I haven't done in a while... Go to church! (I was visiting family over the weekend and I usually go with them, to be nice and enjoy their company ect...)
Anyways, the pastor was discussing a particular parable where Jesus was talking about believers.

He talks about how some believers say "Sure God, I'll do what you ask", but then they don't because they don't actually believe.
Then others say "No way God", but later they do, because they realize they were wrong, and God should be believed.

What struck me as interesting was how Jesus used the word "belief". I realized that the modern idea of an "unbeliever" is different than how Jesus was using it. His use of belief, was actually closer to our word "trust".

I don't call myself an "unbeliever" because I don't trust him, but instead that I don't think the God of the Bible exists. Some may say that is the same, but I think to say that would be cheating. There is a difference between the two concepts.

1) Do you think that Jesus (and others that used the word belief in the Bible) aren't actually about belief in existence, but more like belief that God is right/good/powerful/merciful/everything he says he is.

It's intriguing to me, and makes me want to read the scripture in a new context.

2) Are there verses out there that address someone like me? I know about the "No God = fool" verse , but that's the only one that comes to mind. Anything in the New Testament? Any verses regarding the existence vs. non-existence of God?

A long question I know. Hope it made sense.

 

[Emmy]

Dear starbuck55. I believe the time comes for each of us, when we start seeking for answers. It seems to me that you are looking, perhaps searching for something that makes sense to you. Since we are all different, and think differently, I can only tell you how I found what I was looking for. If I may propose, starbuck? Read one of the Gospels, but sincerely and thoroughly, learn about Jesus, how He loves you, how He lovingly gave His life, that we might find life. And as you get to know Him, talk to Him, tell Him about yourself, about your wishes, your fears, and your doubts. Ask Him to help you see, and listen to the still, small voice inside you. Jesus has promised, " ask and you will be answered." I say this humbly and with love, starbuck. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[salida]

First I would be asking why mankind needs a savior? Well, have you kept all the 10 Commandments 100% of the time? Only Jesus did. I would go to: http://www.livingwaters.com/good/ We need a savior because mankind has fallen. Other religions think you can get to God by works alone - its impossible because no one can keep the 10 Commandments like Jesus did. So, God has given us the gift of salvation. We are saved through grace by faith. Good works is a byproduct of saving faith. If a christian doesn't have the fruits - good fruits then are they really a christian? Probably not. Jesus told us to be a fruit inspector, Matthew 12:33 - a tree is known by its fruit - the metaphore - a christian is the tree - the fruit is their works.

I'm a christian spiritually first and intellectually second. Read, The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (this evidence would stand up in court without a reasonable doubt). The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel(a former athiest). Examine the Evidence by Muncaster(a former athiest).

Biblical Evidence – This is a very small amount of information
out of large amounts of information out there.

Internal Evidences-Prophesies that are confirmed with Bible;

mentioning only a few – but there are hundreds.

Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen. 49:10, Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke’s time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5, Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 – four kingdoms are described in the interpretation
of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek – Daniel 8:21, 10:20/ and a fourth great kingdom to follow which was part iron and clay – which is the
Roman Empire – during this empire, Christ came and the church was established – Daniel 2:44.

Historical Accuracy

The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events of hundreds of years ago, yet
none of them has been proven to be incorrect.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents)
New Testament – starts at 25 years – between the original and surviving copies
Homer- starts at 500 years/Demosthenes – at 1400 years/Plato – at 1200 years/
Caesar – at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies

New Testament – 5,686/Homer – 643/Demosthenes – 200/Plato – 7/Caesar – 10

Consistency – Written by 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no
Internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration- It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences

(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never to be built again- and they haven’t.
Niveveh – Nahum 1:10, 3:7, 15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon – Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre -Ezekiel 26:1-28

Bible before Science

He hangs the earth on nothing – Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago – some scholars think it could have been even 3000
years ago)
Note: Man only knew the above for 350 years.
Earth is a sphere – Isaiah 40:22/Air has weight – Job 28:25/
Gravity – Job 26:7, Job 38: 31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True

Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogical Evidence (Still adding to this list today- it hasn’t stopped)
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[Chesterton]

I'm an Agnostic and an atheist...

?

2) Are there verses out there that address someone like me? I know about the "No God = fool" verse , but that's the only one that comes to mind. Anything in the New Testament? Any verses regarding the existence vs. non-existence of God?

You might read the 1st chapter of the book of Romans, starting at verse 17.

 

[seashale76]

He talks about how some believers say "Sure God, I'll do what you ask", but then they don't because they don't actually believe.
Then others say "No way God", but later they do, because they realize they were wrong, and God should be believed.

What struck me as interesting was how Jesus used the word "belief". I realized that the modern idea of an "unbeliever" is different than how Jesus was using it. His use of belief, was actually closer to our word "trust".

I don't call myself an "unbeliever" because I don't trust him, but instead that I don't think the God of the Bible exists. Some may say that is the same, but I think to say that would be cheating. There is a difference between the two concepts.

1) Do you think that Jesus (and others that used the word belief in the Bible) aren't actually about belief in existence, but more like belief that God is right/good/powerful/merciful/everything he says he is.

I think it is both as it is used in both ways. It would be interesting to see how it is in the Greek.

In Christianity, faith/belief is an action word. It isn't simply intellectual assent that something may be true. If someone claims to believe and then they don't actually follow the beliefs they claim to believe in, then one must assume that they don't really believe. One who has faith will have works, or else it is a dead faith. There is always, always, always, a physical component to go along with the spiritual.

Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

We are told in Ephesians 2:8-9 that:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

However, in verse 10 it tells us that faith requires something of us:
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

It's intriguing to me, and makes me want to read the scripture in a new context.

2) Are there verses out there that address someone like me? I know about the "No God = fool" verse , but that's the only one that comes to mind. Anything in the New Testament? Any verses regarding the existence vs. non-existence of God?

A long question I know. Hope it made sense.

2 Corinthians 4:4
4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[Stinker]

Hi!
I'm an Agnostic and an atheist and the other day I did something I haven't done in a while... Go to church! (I was visiting family over the weekend and I usually go with them, to be nice and enjoy their company ect...)
Anyways, the pastor was discussing a particular parable where Jesus was talking about believers.

He talks about how some believers say "Sure God, I'll do what you ask", but then they don't because they don't actually believe.
Then others say "No way God", but later they do, because they realize they were wrong, and God should be believed.

What struck me as interesting was how Jesus used the word "belief". I realized that the modern idea of an "unbeliever" is different than how Jesus was using it. His use of belief, was actually closer to our word "trust".

I don't call myself an "unbeliever" because I don't trust him, but instead that I don't think the God of the Bible exists. Some may say that is the same, but I think to say that would be cheating. There is a difference between the two concepts.

1) Do you think that Jesus (and others that used the word belief in the Bible) aren't actually about belief in existence, but more like belief that God is right/good/powerful/merciful/everything he says he is.

It's intriguing to me, and makes me want to read the scripture in a new context.

2) Are there verses out there that address someone like me? I know about the "No God = fool" verse , but that's the only one that comes to mind. Anything in the New Testament? Any verses regarding the existence vs. non-existence of God?

A long question I know. Hope it made sense.

I like how this verse describes worldly belief. The kind of belief commanded in the New Testament demands the person be totally committed to Christ:







John 12:42-43 (King James Version)


42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

 

[Catherineanne]

1) Do you think that Jesus (and others that used the word belief in the Bible) aren't actually about belief in existence, but more like belief that God is right/good/powerful/merciful/everything he says he is.

It's intriguing to me, and makes me want to read the scripture in a new context.

Your point is a very good one. We talk about belief as if it is all that is required, but even Satan and his demons believe in God and Our Lord, far more than most of us do, in fact.

So, yes, there is certainly more than just belief.

You could compare it with politics. We all believe George Bush exists, but believing in him is something else entirely.

2) Are there verses out there that address someone like me? I know about the "No God = fool" verse , but that's the only one that comes to mind. Anything in the New Testament? Any verses regarding the existence vs. non-existence of God?

A long question I know. Hope it made sense.

I think my own view is that whether you believe in God or not is pretty irrelevant. What matters is whether and how you express this belief towards those around you. In Christian terms, this is part of finding God in our brothers and sisters, but in more humanist terms it might be expressed as learning to express altruism; a feature of humanity which supersedes 'survival of the fittest' in human evolution, and is what separates us quite strikingly from the rest of creation. Altruism is not just a Christian concept; all mankind can demonstrate it, at times.

If you read the Beatitudes, and Matthew 25, you will find this point of view expressed by the Lord. He is not obsessed with belief, or with our getting the words right. He centres on how important it is to treat one another as if he himself is present, and to behave towards one another as towards Him. That, imo, is true worship of God made man. Inasmuch as ye have done this unto the least of these, ye have done it unto me.