Belief, faith, doubt

TreasureHunter12

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In my view, there is much misunderstanding of the concept of faith, especially how it relates to belief. This all stems from the fact that we often don't know how our beliefs are formed. We are aware of some influencers on how our beliefs are formed such as our intellect or our upbringing, but we are not aware of all influencers. We overestimate how much we consciously choose our beliefs and underestimate how much our subconscious influences what we believe. This, of course, is inevitable.

Since a lot of religion operates outside of the intellect, you find that people will believe something but they do not have a conscious awareness of why they believe it. This is an uncomfortable feeling so naturally people will consciously investigate a reason for their belief. The popular explanation to satisfy this uncertainty is to attribute it to 'faith' since faith is something that seems to be valued and of high importance, so essentially you can kill two birds with one stone.

However, faith is not a reason for belief. We believe something because we believe it. If we don't consciously understand exactly why we believe something, then that just means we don't know how that belief formed, not that we believe it based on faith. The idea that if we don't intellectually understand why we believe something, then it must be because of faith is a misconception.

What is faith then? Faith is to investigate or pursue something that we don't have a belief in or at least don't completely believe in. Faith is actually oppositional to belief and can only be exercised outside of the bubble of our current beliefs. Doubt, resistance, and uncertainty are requirements for faith because they are indicators that we are operating outside of that bubble, in the darkness of non-belief.

To summarize, we can't have faith in our spiritual/religious beliefs since these beliefs require nothing to preserve them. We can only have faith in what threatens our beliefs. If you never allow yourself to detach from your beliefs, if you don't embrace doubt, then you don't embrace faith, and don't exercise faith. Faith isn't about protecting or preserving your existing, stale and tired hope; it's about trusting that if you allow yourself to feel exposed and step into the darkness of vulnerability, then you will find/be given a better hope. Then, when that new hope becomes stale and doubt shows back up, you exercise faith again.. and again.
 
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Chriliman

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In my view, there is much misunderstanding of the concept of faith, especially how it relates to belief. This all stems from the fact that we often don't know how our beliefs are formed. We are aware of some influencers on how our beliefs are formed such as our intellect or our upbringing, but we are not aware of all influencers. We over-estimate how much we consciously choose our beliefs and under-estimate how much our subconscious influences what we believe. This, of course, is inevitable.

Since a lot of religion operates outside of the intellect, you find that people will believe something but they do not have a conscious awareness of why they believe it. This is an uncomfortable feeling so naturally people will consciously investigate a reason for their belief. The popular explanation to satisfy this uncertainty is to attribute it to 'faith' since faith is something that seems to be valued and of high importance, so essentially you can kill two birds with one stone.

However, faith is not a reason for belief. We believe something because we believe it. If we don't consciously understand exactly why we believe something, then that just means we don't know how that belief formed, not that we believe it based on faith. The idea that if we don't intellectually understand why we believe something, then it must be because of faith is a misconception.

What is faith then? Faith is to investigate or pursue something that we don't have a belief in or at least don't completely believe in. Faith is actually oppositional to belief and can only be exercised outside of the bubble of our current beliefs. Doubt, resistance, and uncertainty are requirements for faith because they are indicators that we are operating outside of that bubble, in the darkness of non-belief.

To summarize, we can't have faith in our spiritual/religious beliefs since these beliefs require nothing to preserve them. We can only have faith in what threatens our beliefs. If you never allow yourself to detach from your beliefs, if you don't embrace doubt, then you don't embrace faith, and don't exercise faith. Faith isn't about protecting or preserving your existing, stale and tired hope; it's about trusting that if you allow yourself to feel exposed and step into the darkness of vulnerability, then you will find/be given a better hope. Then, when that new hope becomes stale and doubt shows back up, you exercise faith again.. and again.

Faith is rewarded when you put your faith in the actual truth. Of course you don't know it's the actual truth before you put your faith in it, but that's the point of faith, it leads to knowledge of truth.
 
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Freodin

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Faith is rewarded when you put your faith in the actual truth. Of course you don't know it's the actual truth before you put your faith in it, but that's the point of faith, it leads to knowledge of truth.
That would make it the same as "guessing".
 
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Chriliman

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That would make it the same as "guessing".

I'd describe it as similar to making a hypothesis. You have a supposition that you're not sure is true, but you see evidence pointing in that direction, so you put your faith in what you think might be true based on the evidence available.

Faith is certainly not about disregarding all evidence just to believe whatever you want to believe. Faith is directed by evidence that we perceive in reality, just like a hypothesis is made when evidence is pointing to something that you think might be true, but you don't know for sure if it's true.

I'd say having faith and making a hypothesis are at least similar if not synonymous.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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I'd describe it as similar to making a hypothesis. You have a supposition that you're not sure is true, but you see evidence pointing in that direction, so you put your faith in what you think might be true based on the evidence available.

What's the "evidence pointing in that direction" in the case of Christianity?
 
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Chriliman

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What's the "evidence pointing in that direction" in the case of Christianity?

Not sure about you, but I see plenty of evidence pointing to the existence of God. Logical explanations being among the evidence.

Not interested in getting into a debate about what constitutes evidence.

Have a great day!
 
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bhsmte

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In my view, there is much misunderstanding of the concept of faith, especially how it relates to belief. This all stems from the fact that we often don't know how our beliefs are formed. We are aware of some influencers on how our beliefs are formed such as our intellect or our upbringing, but we are not aware of all influencers. We overestimate how much we consciously choose our beliefs and underestimate how much our subconscious influences what we believe. This, of course, is inevitable.

Since a lot of religion operates outside of the intellect, you find that people will believe something but they do not have a conscious awareness of why they believe it. This is an uncomfortable feeling so naturally people will consciously investigate a reason for their belief. The popular explanation to satisfy this uncertainty is to attribute it to 'faith' since faith is something that seems to be valued and of high importance, so essentially you can kill two birds with one stone.

However, faith is not a reason for belief. We believe something because we believe it. If we don't consciously understand exactly why we believe something, then that just means we don't know how that belief formed, not that we believe it based on faith. The idea that if we don't intellectually understand why we believe something, then it must be because of faith is a misconception.

What is faith then? Faith is to investigate or pursue something that we don't have a belief in or at least don't completely believe in. Faith is actually oppositional to belief and can only be exercised outside of the bubble of our current beliefs. Doubt, resistance, and uncertainty are requirements for faith because they are indicators that we are operating outside of that bubble, in the darkness of non-belief.

To summarize, we can't have faith in our spiritual/religious beliefs since these beliefs require nothing to preserve them. We can only have faith in what threatens our beliefs. If you never allow yourself to detach from your beliefs, if you don't embrace doubt, then you don't embrace faith, and don't exercise faith. Faith isn't about protecting or preserving your existing, stale and tired hope; it's about trusting that if you allow yourself to feel exposed and step into the darkness of vulnerability, then you will find/be given a better hope. Then, when that new hope becomes stale and doubt shows back up, you exercise faith again.. and again.

Interesting post.

IMO, we all believe certain things, based on our psychological makeup and the personal psychological needs we have as individuals.

It is really fairly complex, since people are motivated by things that are unique to their own psyche. I would agree, we don't really believe things on conscience choice, as we believe things based on the inner working of our psychology, which are not factors we can control very well.

I can't choose to believe my favorite color is blue, if it has always been red, unless I played mind games with myself and then it wouldn't really be a legit belief. Just as Christians, can't choose to believe in Hinduism, based on a simple choice.

If folks want to understand "psychology of belief" google that term and you will interesting psychological studies and works, that discuss how people who are analytical vs intuitive and how many other factors help to determine what we choose to believe or not believe.
 
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TreasureHunter12

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Faith is rewarded when you put your faith in the actual truth. Of course you don't know it's the actual truth before you put your faith in it, but that's the point of faith, it leads to knowledge of truth.

It's about seeking truth.
When you seek truth (maybe in stead of hunting for treasures ;) ) you're most likely to find it.
I would say to seek intuition. Or in Christian terms, seek the Holy Spirit which will lead you to truth. If you seek truth, confirmation bias is all you will get.

Do you guys agree with me? Is seeking the Holy Spirit more important than seeking truth?
 
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TreasureHunter12

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Interesting post.

IMO, we all believe certain things, based on our psychological makeup and the personal psychological needs we have as individuals.

It is really fairly complex, since people are motivated by things that are unique to their own psyche. I would agree, we don't really believe things on conscience choice, as we believe things based on the inner working of our psychology, which are not factors we can control very well.

I can't choose to believe my favorite color is blue, if it has always been red, unless I played mind games with myself and then it wouldn't really be a legit belief. Just as Christians, can't choose to believe in Hinduism, based on a simple choice.

If folks want to understand "psychology of belief" google that term and you will interesting psychological studies and works, that discuss how people who are analytical vs intuitive and how many other factors help to determine what we choose to believe or not believe.
This is what I meant when I said we underestimate the role of our subconscious in forming our beliefs. I agree with you, except I would say these psychological needs are both universal and unique.
 
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bhsmte

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This is what I meant when I said we underestimate the role of our subconscious in forming our beliefs. I agree with you, except I would say these psychological needs are more universal than unique.

Explain what you mean by psychological needs being more universal, than unique.
 
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Hieronymus

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I would say to seek intuition.
Why?
Is our intuition trustworthy?
Maybe it is shaped by the world or by misconceptions, or simply irrational or nonsensical?
Or in Christian terms, seek the Holy Spirit which will lead you to truth.
That's not intuition in Christian terms.
If you seek truth, confirmation bias is all you will get.
How?
Seeking truth means following the evidence, otherwise you're just following yourself or whatever makes the most noise.
Do you guys agree with me? Is seeking the Holy Spirit more important than seeking truth?
It's quite the same.
Lending your ear to the Spirit of Truth will have you find the Truth.
How else can one identify the Spirit of Truth / the Holy Spirit?
Truth is testable, and we should test any claims the world throws at us.

Surely, you can understand that who seeks truth is most likely to find it.
So I don't mean seeking your own identity or confirmations.

About seeking the Holy Spirit though: the only way is praying in humility.
 
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TreasureHunter12

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Why?
Is our intuition trustworthy?
Maybe it is shaped by the world or by misconceptions, or simply irrational or nonsensical? That's not intuition in Christian terms.How?
Seeking truth means following the evidence, otherwise you're just following yourself or whatever makes the most noise.It's quite the same.
Lending your ear to the Spirit of Truth will have you find the Truth.
How else can one identify the Spirit of Truth / the Holy Spirit?
Truth is testable, and we should test any claims the world throws at us.

Surely, you can understand that who seeks truth is most likely to find it.
So I don't mean seeking your own identity or confirmations.

About seeking the Holy Spirit though: the only way is praying in humility.
Following the evidence only applies in the known, in which our intellect and reason can lead. Religious truth is found in the unknown. If you follow the evidence (seek truth) and use your intellect, you will always stay within the boundaries of the known. Only the Holy Spirit can take you into the unknown where religious truths are hidden.
 
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Hieronymus

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Following the evidence only applies in the known,
You don't say? ;)
Why would you assume there is thus no evidence for what's in the Bible?
You think someone who becomes a Christian is just dumb or ignorant?
What would make you think that?
 
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bhsmte

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This is what I meant when I said we underestimate the role of our subconscious in forming our beliefs. I agree with you, except I would say these psychological needs are both universal and unique.

I agree with your edit.

There are fairly decent predictors of certain psychological needs, based on how a person's brain operates; analytical vs intuitive and also based on behaviors and personality.

Some personal needs, are quite complex and much more difficult to understand, like in people who have the ability, to compartmentalize, certain beliefs.
 
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bhsmte

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It's about seeking truth.
When you seek truth (maybe in stead of hunting for treasures ;) ) you're most likely to find it.

What is the best method to seek truth?

How do you know when you have found it?
 
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Chriliman

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I would say to seek intuition. Or in Christian terms, seek the Holy Spirit which will lead you to truth. If you seek truth, confirmation bias is all you will get.

Do you guys agree with me? Is seeking the Holy Spirit more important than seeking truth?

If God has your heart, you'll know it. Doesn't really matter if you call it Holy Spirit or Spirit of Truth, after all it was called Holy Ghost for the longest time. All that matters is than you can clearly feel God transforming the way you view the world and it becomes more clear as you seek him over time.
 
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TreasureHunter12

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If God has your heart, you'll know it. Doesn't really matter if you call it Holy Spirit or Spirit of Truth, after all it was called Holy Ghost for the longest time. All that matters is than you can clearly feel God transforming the way you view the world and it becomes more clear as you seek him over time.
Didn't Jesus say only the Son knows the Father? Didn't he say the Father is in heaven?

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (John 14:26)

Jesus didn't say the Father will guide you personally; he said the Father will send the Holy Spirit to guide you. If someone is here with you, then why would they need to send a guide? If you believe someone is here with you to guide you but they really aren't here, then what are you really being lead by? A belief right? Perhaps this belief is distracting you from seeking the guide that has been sent.
 
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Chriliman

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Didn't Jesus say only the Son knows the Father? Didn't he say the Father is in heaven?

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (John 14:26)

Jesus didn't say the Father will guide you personally; he said the Father will send the Holy Spirit to guide you. If someone is here with you, then why would they need to send a guide? If you believe someone is here with you to guide you but they really aren't here, then what are you really being lead by? A belief right? Perhaps this belief is distracting you from seeking the guide that has been sent.

You're right, the Father is in unapproachable light, Jesus connects us to him through the Holy Spirit, and this is the perfect will of the Father.

The Father and Jesus have the exact same will, in essence they both send the Holy Spirit to purify those that believe in Jesus, but the Father is the head of Christ and Christ is the head of the church. This is why Christianity is monotheistic because we believe the Father is the one true God and he has given Christ authority over creation as Lord in this age.
 
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