4 dead (including a child) 1 critically injured in office complex shooting in Orange, California

[Tom 1]

Well it may be obvious but it is just flat out wrong. I have fired thousands of rounds that did not kill anything.

Well yes, me too. Low thousands anyway. But the entire purpose of a firearm is to kill. That is what it is for. That people also use it for recreation is neither here nor there. Some people like driving around in tanks for kicks, but that is not the purpose of a tank.

 

[disciple Clint]

The same answer as applies to the first. There are all kinds of offensive and defensive uses of weapons, but there is nothing comparable in the world that causes so many pointless and avoidable deaths as the free availability of firearms.

I have yet to see a gun kill anyone, it is the person behind the gun that does the killing, the gun is simply a tool, if that tool was not available another tool would be used.

 

[Tom 1]

I have yet to see a gun kill anyone, it is the person behind the gun that does the killing, the gun is simply a tool, if that tool was not available another tool would be used.

What does that change? That guns are used for recreation does not change the fact that a firearm is a deadly weapon. The giving up of one form of recreation among many others is a small price to pay to bring the murder rate in the US down to levels comparable with other developed nations. Comparisons with knives, or whatever else, miss this basic point. A knife, from the first sharp flint tool to the modern kitchen knife, is a useful tool that is sometimes used to inflict harm. A rifle is a killing tool that is also used for recreation.

 

[disciple Clint]

Well yes, me too. Low thousands anyway. But the entire purpose of a firearm is to kill. That is what it is for. That people also use it for recreation is neither here nor there. Some people like driving around in tanks for kicks, but that is not the purpose of a tank.

Now you are beginning to see the light. the problem is not the gun it is the way a person elects to use the gun. How do we reduce gun violence? Better mental health access for everyone. Enforce criminal statutes that involve the use of a gun. Stop reducing charges and eliminate good time for criminals that use guns. When people know that they are going to spend 10-20 years or more in prison they will find a way to commit the crime without using a gun.

 

[disciple Clint]

What does that change? That guns are used for recreation does not change the fact that a firearm is a deadly weapon. The giving up of one form of recreation among many others is a small price to pay to bring the murder rate in the US down to levels comparable with other developed nations. Comparisons with knives, or whatever else, miss this basic point. A knife, from the first sharp flint tool to the modern kitchen knife, is a useful tool that is sometimes used to inflict harm. A rifle is a killing tool that is also used for recreation.

A gun is a useful tool that is sometimes used by criminals. Criminals do not obey gun laws.

 

[Tom 1]

A gun is a useful tool that is sometimes used by criminals. Criminals do not obey gun laws.

As a tool, what is it useful for?

 

[Tom 1]

Now you are beginning to see the light. the problem is not the gun it is the way a person elects to use the gun. How do we reduce gun violence? Better mental health access for everyone. Enforce criminal statutes that involve the use of a gun. Stop reducing charges and eliminate good time for criminals that use guns. When people know that they are going to spend 10-20 years or more in prison they will find a way to commit the crime without using a gun.

There's little evidence that punishment prevents crime, punishment deters people who are less disposed to commit crime for other, more systemic reasons. Someone prepared to kill can do a lot more damage with a rifle than almost anything else, people with the skill to use explosives are rarer and are killing for an ideology or some other premeditated reason. More jail time, more guns, more tension, more pressure - it's all just more of the same and all it means is more death. Highly restricted access to firearms = less dead bodies.

 

[disciple Clint]

As a tool, what is it useful for?

how about putting food on your table? How about protecting your livestock from predators.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Four people, including a child, were killed in a mass shooting at an office complex in Orange, California

Police responded to a call of shots fired around 5:30 p.m. and encountered gunshots when they arrived on the scene, Amat said. Officers engaged the suspect and "an officer-involved shooting did occur," she said.

The suspect was transported to the hospital after sustaining a gunshot wound, Amat said. It's unclear if the suspect's injury was self-inflicted, she said.

That was literally two blocks down from where I live.

 

[disciple Clint]

There's little evidence that punishment prevents crime, punishment deters people who are less disposed to commit crime for other, more systemic reasons. Someone prepared to kill can do a lot more damage with a rifle than almost anything else, people with the skill to use explosives are rarer and are killing for an ideology or some other premeditated reason. More jail time, more guns, more tension, more pressure - it's all just more of the same and all it means is more death. Highly restricted access to firearms = less dead bodies.

That has not proven to be the case, in fact some of the cities with the most restrictive gun laws have the highest death counts. It requires very little skill to use explosives and the instructions are on the internet.

 

[Tom 1]

how about putting food on your table? How about protecting your livestock from predators.

Sure, as a farmer I could get a licence for a 12 bore or a bolt action hunting rifle, if I really wanted one. I'd have to justify it though, and rightly so. Firearms are dangerous and should not be easily available. There are certain limited uses (all involving killing) for firearms in farming, hunting, culling of wild animal populations etc and those are easily met with the numbers of firearms issued to people who do those things. The obsession with guns in the US goes way beyond anything like what is needed for those purposes.

 

[Tom 1]

It requires very little skill to use explosives and the instructions are on the internet.

Well we'll have to disagree on that, producing anything like the amount of explosive needed to cause large scale death without blowing yourself up in the process isn't as easy as doing a bit of DIY.

 

[Tom 1]

in fact some of the cities with the most restrictive gun laws have the highest death counts.

That's probably true, but could be addressed as a medium term project using amnesties, raids etc. but in the longer term with a move away from the idea of guns as a desirable thing to have around.

 

[High Fidelity]

Drunk drivers are bad, not cars, nor good drivers. And more drunk drivers kill more Americans each year than "mass shooters".

Meanwhile, what about gang-related violence, in "Blue" cities, like Chicago? Anyone care??

• 4 People, Including 2 Children, Hit By Gunfire In Two Chicago Shootings – CBS 2: News, Weather, Sports On All Platforms (cbslocal.com)
  
• Man, 32, Killed In Sunday Logan Square Shooting (blockclubchicago.org)
  
• 6 hurt Monday in citywide shootings (fox32chicago.com)
  
• Chicago mass shooting: Video captures moment gunman opened fire inside Park Manor warehouse party - ABC7 Chicago
  
• Chicago shootings: 6 shot Monday - Chicago Sun-Times
  
• Chicago violence: 1 dead, at least 7 wounded in Southwest Side shooting - Chicago Tribune

Madmen are bad, not nuclear weapons.

Let Americans own nuclear weapons? What about surface-to-air missiles?

 

[Erik Nelson]

move away from the idea of guns as a desirable thing to have around.

Lead by example, you first?

 

[Erik Nelson]

there is nothing comparable in the world that causes so many pointless and avoidable deaths as the free availability of firearms.

Ever refer to facts?

 

[Erik Nelson]

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

In 1994:

• 2-3 million people defensively used guns 4-5 million times (that would be against crime)...
• 1 million crimes-with-guns were committed

4-5 million Defensive Gun Usages (DGUs) vs. 1 million Offensive Gun Usages.

Hence:

millions of attempted assaults, thefts, and break-ins were foiled by armed citizens during the 12-​

month period [of 1994]...guns are used far more often to defend against crime than to perpetrate crime

According to the statistics, people might be surprised just what American women are packing in their purses these days. If so, "gun control" advocates are not as "progressive" as they claim.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I think the conservatives are just mad I didn't title the thread "Orange man bad".

But to get back to the OP.

It appears the murderer was linked to one of the businesses there. His wife had worked at the business in the past. Presumably there was bad blood.

The victims’ names have not been released because their next of kin have not all been notified, Amat said. The suspect is Aminadab Gaxiola Gonzalez, a 44-year-old man last known to be living in Anaheim who police said had a “business and personal relationship” with the victims.

But over the years [a neighbor of the suspect] put together small details of the family. The wife, whom she identified as Aleyda Mendoza, worked as a real estate agent at Unified Homes. She had once told Rosa that whenever she wanted to purchase her own home, to see her and that she would help make it happen.

 

[Tom 1]

Ever refer to facts?

In what way do you see those as being comparable to free access to firearms?

I don't understand any of your arguments. We are talking about shooting deaths and you throw up some stats on deaths from illness and disease. What is your point?

 

[Speedwell]

how about putting food on your table? How about protecting your livestock from predators.

How small a percentage of the population relies on a gun for that? How would a registration requirement interfere with it?