It's Sad That So Many Christians Consider Themselves "New Testament" Christians

[trophy33]

We have gone thru this already and its answered in detail here. It's Sad That So Many Christians Consider Themselves "New Testament" Christians

Where is God's law? Hint Revelation 11:19

In various threads, you are making the same mistake of not using the Scriptures properly. You are creating your own story based upon verses taken out of their context.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Tell that to God. The one commandment that God said "Remember" and uses the word "holy" and blessed".

We can't debate this here, but I would be happy to discuss further in the Sabbath and Law forum.

So let me ask you how you keep the Sabbath Holy. Do you do no work at all? No grass mowing, laundry, or dish washing?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In various threads, you are making the same mistake of not using the Scriptures properly. You are creating your own story based upon verses taken out of their context.

God gave us the context Exodus 20:6. You think God's commandments means something different than the definition God gave. I can prove that they mean the same thing because they are quoted from directly Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17-19, Revelation 22:14-15, Luke 18:20, Mark 10:19, Luke 23:56, Romans 7:7, Ephesians 6:2, James 2:10-12 just a few. I always prefer scriptures over opinions.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So let me ask you how you keep the Sabbath Holy. Do you do no work at all? No grass mowing, laundry, or dish washing?

I would be happy to answer this question in the Sabbath and Law forum. Do you want me to start a thread there? Thanks for engaging.

 

[expos4ever]

Actually you do, when you claim we don't need to keep the commandments.

No. My saying we do not follow the Law of Moses clearly does not imply that we define sin.

Sin is breaking the commandments and Paul quotes directly from the Ten. Romans 7:7 and lawlessness is sin 1 John 3:4 and breaking one commandment is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12

Where does scripture teach that sin is exclusively defined by the Law of Moses?

As to sin being "lawlessness", this is a general statement about law - it is not necessarily specific to the Law of Moses.

The fact that Paul quotes from the 10 does not mean they are still in force - he could be, and I suggest he is, telling us how he came to know what sin was. But, and this is critical, it does not logically follow that the law is still in force.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I would be happy to answer this question in the Sabbath and Law forum. Do you want me to start a thread there? Thanks for engaging.

Might as well, if there is not one already.

 

[trophy33]

God gave us the context Exodus 20:6. You think God's commandments means something different than the definition God gave. I can prove that they mean the same thing because they are quoted from directly Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17-19, Revelation 22:14-15, Luke 18:20, Mark 10:19, Luke 23:56, Romans 7:7, Ephesians 6:2, James 2:10-12.

Again, the simple fact that OT is quoted in the NT or that the OT is in your Bible does not automatically mean we are legally bound to keep the Mosaic Law.

In Gospels, OT was still in place. In other letters, Jewish apostles illustrated various points from books they were used to - OT.

I always prefer scriptures over opinions.

Scriptures must be understood, though. Some opinion can be right even without quotations and thousand quotations may be wrong because somebody misused them or took them out of place.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No. My saying we do not follow the Law of Moses clearly does not imply that we define sin.


Where does scripture teach that sin is exclusively defined by the Law of Moses?

As to sin being "lawlessness", this is a general statement about law - it is not necessarily specific to the Law of Moses.

The fact that Paul quotes from the 10 does not mean they are still in force - he could be, and I suggest he is, telling us how he came to know what sin was. But, and this is critical, it does not logically follow that the law is still in force.

You are ignoring the context, it directly quotes from the Law of God as the example. The Ten Commandments came in Ten, not nine or eight personally written by God. He is the author. If you think you can break these freely, that's your choice. Not one I choose to make based on scriptures.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Again, the simple fact that OT is quoted in the NT or that the OT is in your Bible does not automatically mean we are legally bound to keep the Mosaic Law.

In Gospels, OT was still in place. In other letters, Jewish apostles illustrated various points from books they were used to - OT.


Scriptures must be understood, though. Some opinion can be right even without quotations and thousand quotations may be wrong because somebody misused them or took them out of place.

Sure if you want to ignore a lot of scripture, one is not forced to do anything they don't want to. Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 and John said this IS the love of God that we keep His commandment, and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3 This argument is not surprising as predicted in scripture that only a remnant still keep the commandments of God.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Weird the devil would care if we keep the commandments of God, if it did not matter.

I am happy with the scriptures I have provided in this thread. I think they make a clear case we cannot sin freely without consequences. I don't keep the commandments to be saved, I keep them because I love. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[expos4ever]

Do you think Christians can murder, covet or commit adultery as Christians. Why or why not and if you can please provide scripture references.

This question is misleading. The question is posed in such a way as to imply that to deny that the Law of Moses remains in force is to accept that murder is acceptable.

This is simply not correct reasoning.

If God gives us the indwelling Spirit to prick our consciences about sin, we do not need the law.

But forget about that. Suppose that the Law of Moses is "superceded" by another law - call it "the Law of God". Suppose, also, that this "Law of God" forbids murder.

Does this mean the Law of Moses (with its commandment to not murder) remains in force ?

Of course not - it has been replaced with a new "law" that also forbids murder.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This question is misleading. The question is posed in such a way as to imply that to deny that the Law of Moses remains in force is to accept that murder is acceptable.

This is simply not correct reasoning.

If God gives us the indwelling Spirit to prick our consciences about sin, we do not need the law.

But forget about that. Suppose that the Law of Moses is "superceded" by another law - call it "the Law of God". Suppose, also, that this "Law of God" forbids murder.

Does this mean the Law of Moses (with its commandment to not murder) remains in force ?

Of course not - it has been replaced with a new "law" that also forbids murder.

How can it be misleading to say "not to murder" came from God's commandments when God said this verbatim? Exodus 34:28, Exodus 20 spoken and written by God personally. God is the author of His law so when you see "thou shalt not murder" it came directly from Exodus 20. To think otherwise is writing God out of His own law. I'm not sure why anyone would want to do this.

James 2: 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

The "He" who said is God found in Exodus 20. God writes His laws now in our hearts and minds. Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33

God gives us the Holy Spirit to convict of us sin John 16:8 which is breaking God's laws. 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7, James 2:10-12. The Holy Spirit is given to help us obey God's commandments. John 14:15-18 and to those who obey. Acts 2:38 Acts 5:32.

You seem to want to take God out as the author of His commandments, that God personally wrote with His own finger, personally spoke with His own voice, kept in the ark of the covenant of the Most Holy of God's Temple that is also revealed in Heaven Revelation 11:19. I'm sorry I find this very sad.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Might as well, if there is not one already.

I started one here...

Keeping the Sabbath

 

[trophy33]

Sure if you want to ignore a lot of scripture, one is not forced to do anything they don't want to.

I am not sure what this sentence means. I ignore the command to Noah "go build the ark", because its not said to me.
The same applies to Mosaic Laws.

However, you are right that born again Christians are not forced to do anything they dont want to. Their new heart changes them from inside to want to do what is good.

Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 and John said this IS the love of God that we keep His commandment, and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3 This argument is not surprising as predicted in scripture that only a remnant still keep the commandments of God.

Yes, commandments of Jesus are not hard - believing in Him, loving each other and acting according to it.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Weird the devil would care if we keep the commandments of God, if it did not matter.

The question is what are the commandments of God for us, Christians. You obviously think they are the same as for ancient Jews. No.

I am happy with the scriptures I have provided in this thread. I think they make a clear case we cannot sin freely without consequences. I don't keep the commandments to be saved, I keep them because I love. We will have to agree to disagree.

Even though the Scriptures you provided are not used in the right way, its true that we are not free to sin without consequences.
Christians try to keep the current commandments of the New Covenant. Whatever is against faith or against love, is a sin.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I am not sure what this sentence means. I ignore the command to Noah "go build the ark", because its not said to me.

Are you really going to compare "Thou shalt not murder" that applies to everyone to Noah, build me an ark?

The same applies to Mosaic Laws.

Do you apply this to we should love God with all of our hearts and love our neighbors too- quoted from the law of Moses?

Yes, commandments of Jesus are not hard - beliving in Him, loving each other and act according to it.

Interesting, so lets just ignore Jesus when He says keep the commandments, and when asked which ones He directly quotes from the Ten. Matthew 19:17-19 and all the other scriptures I previously posted is in context to the Ten Commandments. If one believes in Jesus, you believe in His Word and do what He asks.

The question is what are the commandments of God for us, Christians. You obviously think they are the same as for ancient Jews. No.

I guess if you want to delete all of these scriptures. Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17-19, Revelation 22:14-15, Luke 18:20, Mark 10:19, Luke 23:56, Romans 7:7, Ephesians 6:2, James 2:10-12,

Even though the Scriptures you provided are not used in the right way, its true that we are not free to sin without consequences.
Christians try to keep the current commandments of the New Covenant. Whatever is against faith or against love, is a sin.

According to Paul who is an advocate that keeping the commandments of God is what matters 1 Cor 7:19 also states that the law is what establishes faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

I again am going to go with the scriptures. We can agree to disagree.

God bless and take care.

 

[expos4ever]

Sure if you want to ignore a lot of scripture, one is not forced to do anything they don't want to. Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 and John said this IS the love of God that we keep His commandment, and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3 This argument is not surprising as predicted in scripture that only a remnant still keep the commandments of God.

Here is the problem: I could equally well say everything you are saying and still believe that the Law of Moses has been effectively superceded by the teachings of Jesus and the indwelling Spirit.

You appear to simply assume that the Law of Moses (including the 10) is eternal and has not been "replaced" by something else that is just am much the "commandments of God" as the 10 commandments are.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Here is the problem: I could equally well say everything you are saying and still believe that the Law of Moses has been effectively superceded by the teachings of Jesus and the indwelling Spirit.

You appear to simply assume that the Law of Moses (including the 10) is eternal and has not been "replaced" by something else that is just am much the "commandments of God" as the 10 commandments are.

No assuming when Jesus quotes from them directly as do the apostles shown here. Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17-19, Revelation 22:14-15, Luke 18:20, Mark 10:19, Luke 23:56, Romans 7:7, Ephesians 6:2, James 2:10-12,

When God writes His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10 its a pretty big assumption in my opinion to think He doesn't include the Ten Commandments the ones He wrote with His own finger, when each one of the Ten Commandments are repeated, taught and kept by Jesus and the apostles in the New Covenant. The Law of Moses includes Love thy God with all our hearts and love thy neighbor- did those not get written in either despite Jesus quoting them verbatim like He does with the Ten?

 

[expos4ever]

You are ignoring the context, it directly quotes from the Law of God as the example. The Ten Commandments came in Ten, not nine or eight personally written by God. He is the author. If you think you can break these freely, that's your choice. Not one I choose to make based on scriptures.

I am not ignoring context. On the contrary, I am very much accounting for context. In Romans 7, Paul is certainly not arguing that we are to obey the Law of Moses. How can you defend that position considering this from the very context you say I ignore:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Now then, why does Paul quote from the 10? It is not to affirm that they continue to apply - he has just told us the very opposite (above)!

No, he is telling the readers the evolving story. Yes, the Jew learned what sin was from the law:

Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

But, it is obviously does not logically follow that the Law remains in force simply because, in the past, Paul learned what sin was by reading the law.

 

[expos4ever]

....when each one of the Ten Commandments are repeated, taught and kept by Jesus and the apostles in the New Covenant.

Again, the fact that Jesus' teachings duplicate, and expand on, some of the 10 commandments (note that He never affirms the Sabbath explicitly) does not mean we are under the 10 commandments.

The law of Canada forbids murder, as does the Law of the USA. Does that mean that I, as a Canadian, am subject to American law?

Answer: no.

 

[trophy33]

Are you really going to compare "Thou shalt not murder" to Noah, build me an ark?

I am not comparing these two. I am saying that I can ignore everything that is not given to me to keep and its OK.

Do you apply this to we should love God with all of our hearts and love our neighbors too- quoted from the law of Moses?

Loving God and neighbor is also in the New Covenant, because its universal for all times. I do not need to be under the old Law to know it.

Interesting, so lets just ignore Jesus when He says keep the commandments, and when asked which ones He directly quotes from the Ten.

The context! Why are you still ignoring the context?

He did not say that to us for today. He said it to a Jew under the Law.

I guess if you want to delete all of these scriptures. Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17-19, Revelation 22:14-15, Luke 18:20, Mark 10:19, Luke 23:56, Romans 7:7, Ephesians 6:2, James 2:10-12,

You guess wrong again. Understanding the context is not deleting.

According to Paul who is an advocate that keeping the commandments of God is what matters 1 Cor 7:19 also states that the law is what establishes faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

You must read the verses in their context. Then you will see what Paul is actually saying.

I again am going to go with the scriptures.

No, you are going only with single verses which you are taking out of Scriptures.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Again, the fact that Jesus' teachings duplicate, and expand on, some of the 10 commandments (note that He never affirms the Sabbath explicitly) does not mean we are under the 10 commandments.

The law of Canada forbids murder, as does the Law of the USA. Does that mean that I, as a Canadian, am subject to American law?

Answer: no.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

We can't debate the Sabbath here, but Jesus kept all of the commandments including the Sabbath, as our example as did the apostles. Luke 4:16-33, John 15:10, Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44, Acts 18:4 1 Peter 2:21-23

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.