Ye olde anti-vaxxers ...

[Mayflower1]

So in your case at least, the correlation holds. You're pro gun ownership, and anti vaccination mandates.

In other words, people should be allowed to make their own choices, even if it means that innocent people have to die.

But let me guess, you're also anti-abortion. So you're only willing to push that free choice argument so far. I guess the lives of some innocent people matter and some don't.

I'd like to respond to this too...I've heard this over and over. I am pro life. I am also against mandated vaccination. Unlike the unborn, nobody else is attached to a placenta. Everyone needs to take the proper precautions to not get covid. That is wisdom. You cannot blame an unvaccinated person for killing innocent people when not everyone can even get a vaccine or believes in vaccination. I believe some who go the natural way are acting wiser then the vaccinated, even wearing masks, because some of the vaccinated are going out as if they are invincible. The vaccine doesn't guarantee the virus cannot be spread or offer full protection. I believe it offers a good amount of protection, but there is still a majority in America who doesn't feel this way. I think it should be a time to listen and address concerns instead of ad nauseum responses like this that get nowhere except what, cause pride and anger. That is killing innocent lives in my honest opinion.

 

[Mayflower1]

@A_Thinker I do apologize if this is going in a direction you don't want. Why I started blabbing on here Idk. I hate the other sections and I think a torrid of emotions finally burst about this whole thing. LOL. It feels good to finally have a stand since before I felt like I wasn't sure of anything. but anyhow, this just opened my thoughts and thanks for the food for thought. Not sure if you even had today on the mind with this stuff.

 

[partinobodycular]

I'd like to respond to this too...I've heard this over and over. I am pro life. I am also against mandated vaccination. Unlike the unborn, nobody else is attached to a placenta. Everyone needs to take the proper precautions to not get covid. That is wisdom. You cannot blame an unvaccinated person for killing innocent people when not everyone can even get a vaccine or believes in vaccination. I believe some who go the natural way are acting wiser then the vaccinated, even wearing masks, because some of the vaccinated are going out as if they are invincible. The vaccine doesn't guarantee the virus cannot be spread or offer full protection. I believe it offers a good amount of protection, but there is still a majority in America who doesn't feel this way.

But now you're just trying to rationalize your choice, by making excuses. Well the vaccine isn't 100% effective, and people are still gonna act like idiots anyway, so why should the onus be on you? Because you're a human being, and for what it's worth, you're a Christian. So you, above all the other idiots should hold yourself to a higher standard. Your free choice should be as nothing compared to the well being of others. You should sacrifice it willingly and without hesitation.

I know, people think that I'm being too harsh. That I'm being unfair. I'll admit to the harsh part, but not the unfair part. When people are needlessly dying, sometimes harsh is necessary.

 

[A_Thinker]

From ... The Long View: Ye Olde Anti-Vaxxers

"In March 1885, a train from Chicago arrived at Bonaventure Station in Montréal with a particularly dangerous passenger: smallpox. George Longley, train conductor, feverish and boiling with pustules, found a bed and medical care at the Hôtel-Dieu. Longley recovered, but not before a laundry-maid named Pélagie Robichaud caught the disease from his contaminated linens. She died on April 2nd. Her sister soon followed. By late summer, smallpox was everywhere. In November, when the epidemic finally burnt itself out, nearly two percent of Montréal’s population had been killed, and many more had been blinded and scarred. Most of the victims were children.

The vaccine first tested and described by Edward Jenner in 1796 was by now nearly a century old, widespread and well-established. Why did Montréal remain so vulnerable to a reliably preventable sickness with fatality rates of up to 40 percent? The answer is that there was another epidemic taking hold: in Montréal, an outbreak of hesitancy was outpacing the disease. Resistance to vaccination was particularly pronounced in the city’s east, a zone inhabited predominantly by typically poorer French Canadians – at the end of the year, French Canadians would make up 90 percent of the dead."

Of course, ... I knew something of the history of smallpox, that it was one of the great scourges of humanity, ... but I decided to do a little research, and was rather shocked by what I found.

Smallpox is believed to have been the most deadly plague that mankind has encountered, ... which, in its existence since the time of the pharaohs of Egypt, has killed billions of people. There were a couple of viruses which caused different versions of smallpox. The major variant killed almost 100% of its infected, while the minor variant killed 30%. Even those who survived were horribly disfigured with scarring ... and may have been left blind. The attack of the virus was indiscriminate, infecting king, priest, and peasant. Many reigning monarchs died from the disease ... Elizabeth the first, daughter of Henry the 8th, wore heavy white makeup ... to hide her scars.

The attack of the virus was immediately evident in the presence of a rash of small pocks upon the skin surface. If the disease progressed unabated, the skin, itself, would separate from the underlying tissues ... and begin to slough off of the body. When the disease reached this point, death was assured and imminent.

It is no wonder that inoculation was soon discovered to confer some immunity upon those received such a treatment. It was discovered that taking some of the pus from the pocks of those who had survived infection, and exposing it into the bloodstreams of those not yet infected, either through the nose, or scratches in the skin ... would substantially reduce an individual's chance of becoming infected with smallpox for years at a time. But those receiving inoculations ... still had a 3% chance of becoming infected and eventually succumbing to the disease.

It was Edward Jenner who, in the late 1700's, as a doctor in a cattle center in Europe, noted that those that tended cattle would often catch cowpox, a disease similar to smallpox, but which much milder symptoms. Those that caught cowpox would recover quite readily ... and would be left with minimal scarring, at worst.

So ... Jenner inoculated a young boy in his care with cowpox, and after a suitable time, ... exposed the boy to active smallpox. The cowpox vaccination worked with almost 100% efficacy, and the road toward modern vaccination advanced mightily.

The world experienced that last active case of smallpox in 1974, after a furious effort was mounted to eliminate it from the presence of humanity. Some billions were vaccinated. The live virus is now kept in isolation at two locations in the world, one in the US, and one in Russia.

Active vaccination against smallpox only occurs now for US servicemen ... as there is a fear that the virus might someday be used as a biological weapon.

I daresay that if COVID presented like smallpox, ... we wouldn't even be having this discussion ...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Of course, ... I knew something of the history of smallpox, that it was one of the great scourges of humanity, ... but I decided to do a little research, and was rather shocked by what I found.

Smallpox is believed to have been the most deadly plague that mankind has encountered, ... which, in its existence since the time of the pharaohs of Egypt, has killed billions of people. There were a couple of viruses which caused different versions of smallpox. The major variant killed almost 100% of its infected, while the minor variant killed 30%. Even those who survived were horribly disfigured with scarring ... and may have been left blind. The attack of the virus was indiscriminate, infecting king, priest, and peasant. Many reigning monarchs died from the disease ... Elizabeth the first, daughter of Henry the 8th, wore heavy white makeup ... to hide her scars.

The attack of the virus was immediately evident in the presence of a rash of small pocks upon the skin surface. If the disease progressed unabated, the skin, itself, would separate from the underlying tissues ... and begin to slough off of the body. When the disease reached this point, death was assured and imminent.

It is no wonder that inoculation was soon discovered to confer some immunity upon those received such a treatment. It was discovered that taking some of the pus from the pocks of those who had survived infection, and exposing it into the bloodstreams of those not yet infected, either through the nose, or scratches in the skin ... would substantially reduce an individual's chance of becoming infected with smallpox for years at a time. But those receiving inoculations ... still had a 3% chance of becoming infected and eventually succumbing to the disease.

It was Edward Jenner who, in the late 1700's, as a doctor in a cattle center in Europe, noted that those that tended cattle would often catch cowpox, a disease similar to smallpox, but which much milder symptoms. Those that caught cowpox would recover quite readily ... and would be left with minimal scarring, at worst.

So ... Jenner inoculated a young boy in his care with cowpox, and after a suitable time, ... exposed the boy to active smallpox. The cowpox vaccination worked with almost 100% efficacy, and the road toward modern vaccination advanced mightily.

The world experienced that last active case of smallpox in 1974, after a furious effort was mounted to eliminate it from the presence of humanity. Some billions were vaccinated. The live virus is now kept in isolation at two locations in the world, one in the US, and one in Russia.

Active vaccination against smallpox only occurs now for US servicemen ... as there is a fear that the virus might someday be used as a biological weapon.

I daresay that if COVID presented like smallpox, ... we wouldn't even be having this discussion ...

It only takes a couple of generations for people to forget the horrors that vaccination effectively eliminated - consider the era of polio, up to as recently as 70 years ago, when iron lungs were mass-produced, and children were the main victims...

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'd like to respond to this too...I've heard this over and over. I am pro life. I am also against mandated vaccination. Unlike the unborn, nobody else is attached to a placenta. Everyone needs to take the proper precautions to not get covid. That is wisdom. You cannot blame an unvaccinated person for killing innocent people when not everyone can even get a vaccine or believes in vaccination. I believe some who go the natural way are acting wiser then the vaccinated, even wearing masks, because some of the vaccinated are going out as if they are invincible. The vaccine doesn't guarantee the virus cannot be spread or offer full protection. I believe it offers a good amount of protection, but there is still a majority in America who doesn't feel this way. I think it should be a time to listen and address concerns instead of ad nauseum responses like this that get nowhere except what, cause pride and anger. That is killing innocent lives in my honest opinion.

Everyone in the US can get a vaccine. They are free. There are a very very few immunocompromised people that should not get the vaccination and it is because of those people that those of use that are not need to take up the slack. It is quite the opposite of basic Christian principles not to get the vaccination. Since one can have this disease up to a week and pass it on during that time saying "I am healthy and will stay at home if sick" does no good at all. By the time that one realizes that one is sick the damage is very likely already done.

Now if a person is willing to lock themselves up in their basement until this threat is over or at least well controlled, then have at it. Don't get vaccinated. You would only be putting yourself at risk. But if you refuse to get a vaccination that brings on only mild discomfort at the most and choose to put others at risk then you are going against the basic idea of "Love your brother as yourself".

 

[Subduction Zone]

It only takes a couple of generations for people to forget the horrors that vaccination effectively eliminated - consider the era of polio, up to as recently as 70 years ago, when iron lungs were mass-produced, and children were the main victims...

And let's not forget smallpox. If you are old enough you have a scar on an upper arm. If you don't have that scar you can thank all of the people that got vaccinated before your time.

 

[Mayflower1]

Everyone in the US can get a vaccine. They are free. There are a very very few immunocompromised people that should not get the vaccination and it is because of those people that those of use that are not need to take up the slack. It is quite the opposite of basic Christian principles not to get the vaccination. Since one can have this disease up to a week and pass it on during that time saying "I am healthy and will stay at home if sick" does no good at all. By the time that one realizes that one is sick the damage is very likely already done.

Now if a person is willing to lock themselves up in their basement until this threat is over or at least well controlled, then have at it. Don't get vaccinated. You would only be putting yourself at risk. But if you refuse to get a vaccination that brings on only mild discomfort at the most and choose to put others at risk then you are going against the basic idea of "Love your brother as yourself".

To say it is against Christian principles is unbiblical, because the Bible is not for or against vaccination. There is definitely more then one way to be unselfish and think of one another rather then just getting a vaccine. Just food for thought.

This is what love is:

1 Corinthians 13:4-7

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 

[Mayflower1]

Of course, ... I knew something of the history of smallpox, that it was one of the great scourges of humanity, ... but I decided to do a little research, and was rather shocked by what I found.

Smallpox is believed to have been the most deadly plague that mankind has encountered, ... which, in its existence since the time of the pharaohs of Egypt, has killed billions of people. There were a couple of viruses which caused different versions of smallpox. The major variant killed almost 100% of its infected, while the minor variant killed 30%. Even those who survived were horribly disfigured with scarring ... and may have been left blind. The attack of the virus was indiscriminate, infecting king, priest, and peasant. Many reigning monarchs died from the disease ... Elizabeth the first, daughter of Henry the 8th, wore heavy white makeup ... to hide her scars.

The attack of the virus was immediately evident in the presence of a rash of small pocks upon the skin surface. If the disease progressed unabated, the skin, itself, would separate from the underlying tissues ... and begin to slough off of the body. When the disease reached this point, death was assured and imminent.

It is no wonder that inoculation was soon discovered to confer some immunity upon those received such a treatment. It was discovered that taking some of the pus from the pocks of those who had survived infection, and exposing it into the bloodstreams of those not yet infected, either through the nose, or scratches in the skin ... would substantially reduce an individual's chance of becoming infected with smallpox for years at a time. But those receiving inoculations ... still had a 3% chance of becoming infected and eventually succumbing to the disease.

It was Edward Jenner who, in the late 1700's, as a doctor in a cattle center in Europe, noted that those that tended cattle would often catch cowpox, a disease similar to smallpox, but which much milder symptoms. Those that caught cowpox would recover quite readily ... and would be left with minimal scarring, at worst.

So ... Jenner inoculated a young boy in his care with cowpox, and after a suitable time, ... exposed the boy to active smallpox. The cowpox vaccination worked with almost 100% efficacy, and the road toward modern vaccination advanced mightily.

The world experienced that last active case of smallpox in 1974, after a furious effort was mounted to eliminate it from the presence of humanity. Some billions were vaccinated. The live virus is now kept in isolation at two locations in the world, one in the US, and one in Russia.

Active vaccination against smallpox only occurs now for US servicemen ... as there is a fear that the virus might someday be used as a biological weapon.

I daresay that if COVID presented like smallpox, ... we wouldn't even be having this discussion ...

For sure.... I had no idea about small pox like in that picture. Something to be grateful for. Vaccination really is a God given gift.

 

[partinobodycular]

To say it is against Christian principles is unbiblical, because the Bible is not for or against vaccination. There is definitely more then one way to be unselfish and think of one another rather then just getting a vaccine. Just food for thought.

I do have to hand it to you though, you stick to your principles. Years ago the place where I worked mandated that every employee had to take a class on CPR. It was either take the class or be fired. I REALLY didn't appreciate being forced to do something, but I took the class.

However, I told myself that if I was ever in a situation where someone was depending upon me to use my knowledge of CPR to save them, that they'd be out of luck, because I wouldn't. I would just stand by and let them die. My boss could force me to learn CPR, but he couldn't force me to use it.

Now do I really think that I could do that, stand by and let somebody die, probably not.

So I have to hand it to you, you're more committed to your principles than I am to mine. You really are willing to stand by and let people die. All that you're being asked to do is get a vaccination and wear a mask, it's rather trivial actually. But no, you've got your principles, and your revered bible to stand behind. So by all means, go ahead and let them die.

But don't think that you can EVER again preach to me about loving thy neighbor, because it doesn't matter what 1 Corinthians says, I've seen your "love" first hand, and if that's what it means to be a Christian, then I'm glad that it says "Agnostic" under my name.

I'll continue to wear this cross around my neck, as I have for forty-six years now. But I'll also continue to be reticent about calling myself a Christian. Because I've seen what Christians can do, and in spite of them, there are still some Christian principles that I won't abandon.

 

[Subduction Zone]

To say it is against Christian principles is unbiblical, because the Bible is not for or against vaccination. There is definitely more then one way to be unselfish and think of one another rather then just getting a vaccine. Just food for thought.

This is what love is:

1 Corinthians 13:4-7

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Not true. The Bible does not have to be pro or con. That is almost as bad as saying that the Bible is not anti-death by shooting since guns did not exist at that time. The Bible does clearly say to love your brother. Does it not?

 

[Mayflower1]

Not true. The Bible does not have to be pro or con. That is almost as bad as saying that the Bible is not anti-death by shooting since guns did not exist at that time. The Bible does clearly say to love your brother. Does it not?

To say it is against Christian principles to not get vaccinated is unbiblical.

Where we disagree is I do not believe getting a vaccine is mandatory for loving your brother. Who are any of us to judge that? There are people just as much in sin getting the vaccine as to not getting the vaccine because of their motives. Attitudes also. Name calling/finger pointing and blame/etc, how is that love? Or backing people into corners? Political discussion too. It has really got out of hand.

 

[Subduction Zone]

To say it is against Christian principles to not get vaccinated is unbiblical.

Where we disagree is I do not believe getting a vaccine is mandatory for loving your brother. Who are any of us to judge that? There are people just as much in sin getting the vaccine as to not getting the vaccine because of their motives. Attitudes also. Name calling/finger pointing and blame/etc, how is that love? Or backing people into corners? Political discussion too. It has really got out of hand.

if what a person selfishly does endangers the life of others is that a Christian action?

 

[Mayflower1]

if what a person selfishly does endangers the life of others is that a Christian action?

But who determines if a person is selfish. You or God?

Matthew 7:3

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I think both sides need to listen to one another as to the concerns of the vaccination. I had genuine concerns about taking it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But who determines if a person is selfish. You or God?

Matthew 7:3

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I think both sides need to listen to one another as to the concerns of the vaccination. I had genuine concerns about taking it.

Poor excuse. I can find verses where you in effect did not feed your brother.

It is pretty hard to find a bigger beam than not caring about the lives of your fellow man. Something that comes at so little cost and provides so much benefit.

Do you think that you have a valid reason not to get a vaccination?

 

[Mayflower1]

Poor excuse. I can find verses where you in effect did not feed your brother.

It is pretty hard to find a bigger beam than not caring about the lives of your fellow man. Something that comes at so little cost and provides so much benefit.

Do you think that you have a valid reason not to get a vaccination?

I am fully vaccinated. But I am against mandated vaccination. Someone coerced to take the vaccine by either words or mandate cannot truly do something out of love for one thing.

If you want to feed your brothers and sisters, feed them the gos "pill" and encourage them in prayer. Feed the sick, lay hands on them, visit them. Love is action. Not fear or blame. I'm just trying to say think when you are talking to people. Not everyone thinks/processes/or feels the same way you do. Millions see this as a threat. I have a couple hundred word of faith friends who are anti vax completely. They are the most unselfish loving people and I will take up for them and my husband.

 

[Danthemailman]

Constitution allows Biden to mandate COVID vaccine. Federal government can do even more.

 

[Mayflower1]

I do have to hand it to you though, you stick to your principles. Years ago the place where I worked mandated that every employee had to take a class on CPR. It was either take the class or be fired. I REALLY didn't appreciate being forced to do something, but I took the class.

However, I told myself that if I was ever in a situation where someone was depending upon me to use my knowledge of CPR to save them, that they'd be out of luck, because I wouldn't. I would just stand by and let them die. My boss could force me to learn CPR, but he couldn't force me to use it.

Now do I really think that I could do that, stand by and let somebody die, probably not.

So I have to hand it to you, you're more committed to your principles than I am to mine. You really are willing to stand by and let people die. All that you're being asked to do is get a vaccination and wear a mask, it's rather trivial actually. But no, you've got your principles, and your revered bible to stand behind. So by all means, go ahead and let them die.

But don't think that you can EVER again preach to me about loving thy neighbor, because it doesn't matter what 1 Corinthians says, I've seen your "love" first hand, and if that's what it means to be a Christian, then I'm glad that it says "Agnostic" under my name.

I'll continue to wear this cross around my neck, as I have for forty-six years now. But I'll also continue to be reticent about calling myself a Christian. Because I've seen what Christians can do, and in spite them, there are still some Christian principles that I won't abandon.

I do stand by my principles and the Bible. Love is not coercion. God is not pro or con vaccination. People are.

God is not going to force you to love him either. But He does love you.

 

[Bobber]

I take my second dose today... When you are surrounded by two hundred or so loved ones who are anti vax, it is easy to be hesitant.

Are you sure that they're anti vax or do they just have reservations about his particular vaccine.

I do not know the right answer here. I'm doing what I sense is right.

And ultimately that's what you should be doing.

 

[Mayflower1]

Are you sure that they're anti vax or do they just have reservations about his particular vaccine.



And ultimately that's what you should be doing.

Anti vax. Pastor for sure. Some are just reservations about this particular one, but most then not at this church are anti vax completely.