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WWJD Did Jesus Pray to Mary?

jamiec

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If we are to model ourselves after Jesus Christ and imitate His life by doing what He did while He was alive, would praying to Mary be something we would do?
It doesn't matter:
  1. Jesus did not read any of the NT books
  2. Jesus did not preach salvation by faith alone
  3. Jesus did not pray to Jesus
  4. Jesus did not wear trousers
  5. Jesus did not speak English
  6. Jesus did not use an iPhone
  7. Jesus did not vote in elections
  8. Jesus did not do, or say, or believe, a great deal of stuff Christians of all sorts have done, said, or believed;
yet Christians did not and do not infer that they couldn't and cannot
  1. have central heating
  2. write commentaries on Galatians
  3. edit the Greek and Latin Classics
  4. keep dogs as pets
  5. have birthday cakes
  6. use mixed fabrics in their clothes
  7. live in Australia
  8. speak in tongues
  9. write hymns
  10. join political parties
  11. marry and have children
  12. work as bankers, architects, lawyers, surgeons, gardeners, bakers
That "Jesus did not do X" would be an argument only if following Christ meant that His followers had to limit themselves to copying all the externals of His earthly Life.

Most of what Christians do or say, was not done or said by Jesus. Because hardly any Christians were 1st-century AD Palestinian Jews from Galilee.

Pauline Christianity, even, is significantly different from the preaching of Jesus. By the end of the NT period, Christianity has become very different from the religion preached by Jesus - and recognisably like post-Apostolic Christianity.
 
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The Liturgist

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You're assuing that those in Heaven are bound by time as we are. I don't think so.

Indeed, if God were subject to time it would mean he was a mere demiurge with Time being the real God. It would also violate General Relativity, which we know is correct on macroscopic scales based on experimental evidence.

Furthermore, Scripture, specifically John 1:1-3, and also Genesis 1:1, teaches us that God created all things, which logically includes spacetime.
 
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FredVB

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Indeed, if God were subject to time it would mean he was a mere demiurge with Time being the real God. It would also violate General Relativity, which we know is correct on macroscopic scales based on experimental evidence.

Furthermore, Scripture, specifically John 1:1-3, and also Genesis 1:1, teaches us that God created all things, which logically includes spacetime.

God is certainly beyond time as we know it, and beyond spacetime. But eternity we come to after this life, and even in heaven, would not be that, with experience of times still.
 
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David Lamb

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It doesn't matter:
  1. Jesus did not read any of the NT books
  2. Jesus did not preach salvation by faith alone
  3. Jesus did not pray to Jesus
  4. Jesus did not wear trousers
  5. Jesus did not speak English
  6. Jesus did not use an iPhone
  7. Jesus did not vote in elections
  8. Jesus did not do, or say, or believe, a great deal of stuff Christians of all sorts have done, said, or believed;
yet Christians did not and do not infer that they couldn't and cannot
  1. have central heating
  2. write commentaries on Galatians
  3. edit the Greek and Latin Classics
  4. keep dogs as pets
  5. have birthday cakes
  6. use mixed fabrics in their clothes
  7. live in Australia
  8. speak in tongues
  9. write hymns
  10. join political parties
  11. marry and have children
  12. work as bankers, architects, lawyers, surgeons, gardeners, bakers
That "Jesus did not do X" would be an argument only if following Christ meant that His followers had to limit themselves to copying all the externals of His earthly Life.

Most of what Christians do or say, was not done or said by Jesus. Because hardly any Christians were 1st-century AD Palestinian Jews from Galilee.

Pauline Christianity, even, is significantly different from the preaching of Jesus. By the end of the NT period, Christianity has become very different from the religion preached by Jesus - and recognisably like post-Apostolic Christianity.
Yes, that's all true. Perhaps a better question to ask is, "Did Jesus ever teach His followers that they should pray to Mary?"
 
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concretecamper

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Yes, that's all true. Perhaps a better question to ask is, "Did Jesus ever teach His followers that they should pray to Mary?"
Not everything Jesus taught is recorded in Scripture. Scripture itself doesn't teach that Scripture contains all that is necessary.

I'm not saying that Jesus did teach His followers to Pray to Mary. I'm just highlighting that it really doesn't matter.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The idea that only what is proscribed in Scripture is permissible is an idea known as the Regulative Principle. In the Reformed tradition of Protestantism the idea of the Regulative Principle has been a cornerstone for how the Reformed have tended to operate. It's why, as an example, in many historically Reformed churches hymns were not sung, but instead only the psalms were permitted. Not all Reformed churches, or all groups whose pedigree goes back to the Reformed tradition (which is most of Protestantism) follows the Regulative Principle in the same ways, or in an always consistent manner.

But the principle of "Where does the Bible say X?" as a per-requisite for something to be permissible is, in essence, the Regulative Principle in action. It is a unique feature of the Reformed Tradition to want explicit biblical proscriptions in order for something to be permissible.

Not all Protestants, let alone all Christians, follow the Regulative Principle.

Lutherans, for example, do not have the Regulative Principle. We have what is known as the Normative Principle, which rather than requiring Scripture to proscribe something in order for it to be permissible, we instead ask "Does Scripture forbid X?" What Scripture forbids is not permissible.

Under the Normative Principle there are three categories of things:

What Scripture commands, which must be done.
What Scripture forbids, which must never be done.
What Scripture neither commands nor forbids, which is adiaphora.

The word adiaphora is Greek (singular adiaphoron), and literally means "thing of indifference".

Scripture does not command that we have pews in our churches, Scripture does not forbid that we have pews in our churches; so can we have pews in our churches? It doesn't matter one way or the other, so it's okay to have pews, but it would be totally okay to not have pews as well.

Under the Normative Principle we have to look at things in a more nuanced way to decide if something is good and beneficial, or bad and harmful; if something is not forbidden, but not commanded, that does not necessarily make it okay, in the same way that it doesn't make something not okay.

That means we have to ask: Does this thing encourage faith in Christ? Does it edify and build up the Church? Does it point us to Jesus, does it provide a net good in the hearing of God's Word and the celebration of His Holy Sacraments? Does this thing harm the preaching of the Gospel, does it encourage and strengthen the preaching of the Gospel, does it do nothing either way?

So when the Lutheran Confessions caution against the Invocation of the Saints, it does not do so by using the Regulative Principle, but the Normative Principle; and it looks at the matter by asking, "Does this practice lead us to Jesus? Does it encourage and strengthen faith in the Gospel?" And the Lutheran Confessions come down negatively, looking at the ways in which Invocation of the Saints has been abused, and how the Faithful have, rather than benefited by the practice, been harmed by the practice.

Scripture does not command us to ask the Saints for their prayers; neither does Scripture forbid it. So the question of whether the Bible commands or forbids the practice is that Scripture does neither. So the follow-up question is: If we encourage the Faithful to invoke and seek out the saints in heaven for their prayers, is this practice something that benefits, encourages, strengthens faith in Christ? In the context of the practices and experiences of Christian life in the 16th century, the Lutheran Confessions conclude that it doesn't, and that it probably shouldn't be done. The position is not a particularly hard-line one, but rather it takes on a pastoral character counseling against it because there are certain unanswerable questions concerning it (e.g. we can't even know whether or not the saints in heaven can hear us, let alone respond), and abuses and abusive practice which can lead one to turn to the invocation of the saints rather than trust in Christ would be a detriment to faith, rather than a boon to faith. The practice, in and of itself, isn't forbidden in Scripture--but the Lutheran tradition has argued that asking the departed saints to pray for us is probably not worth the effort.

On the other hand, the Lutheran tradition has always maintained that the saints in heaven, and holy angels, do in fact pray for us. They pray for us even without our having to ask them to. This is because we actually see, in Scripture, the citizens of heaven praying for us, such as the angel who prays for God's people in the book of the Prophet Zechariah, or as we see those in heaven praying for those on earth in the book of St. John's Apocalypse. So the saints and angels do indeed pray for us here on earth. That's not in doubt, but the practice of seeking out their prayers by invoking them in our prayers is seen as, at best, probably unfruitful and at worse could lead us away from good and healthy faith in Christ.

To that end, while I do not ask the Blessed Virgin mother of our Lord Jesus Christ to pray for me, I do believe that she--and all God's precious saints above--do indeed pray for me as they pray for all of us. For in the Communion of Saints, both in heaven and one earth, God's People are united together in our Savior in faith, hope, and love. Our unity is found in Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit, under the Fatherhood of God who is bringing all things toward His good purposes in Christ our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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concretecamper

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I said "venerate", not worship. Do you think veneration is the same as worship?
Venerating Buddha or any pagan entity would be a violation of the first commandment. Ugh
 
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Carl Emerson

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Venerating Buddha or any pagan entity would be a violation of the first commandment. Ugh

Especially when Paul states they are in fact Demon Sprits.

1 Corinthians 10:20
No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.
 
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timothyu

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Mark 3: 33And He answering them says, "Who are My mother and My brothers?" 34
And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
 
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concretecamper

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Mark 3: 33And He answering them says, "Who are My mother and My brothers?" 34
And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Mary is exalted precisely because she does the will of God. Great verse!
 
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Carl Emerson

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Is that what the first commandment says?

Yes - loving a demon is not loving God.

Matt 22

“‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
 
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Carl Emerson

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Mark 3: 33And He answering them says, "Who are My mother and My brothers?" 34
And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Looking at the context...

31 Then His mother and His brothers *arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they *said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.” 33 Answering them, He *said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” 34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He *said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

Does this not imply that His mother and brothers were not in God's will at that time ?
 
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