Would you prefer it if “Five point Calvinism” were true?

[John Mullally]

Like Diogenes I search the night looking for one honest man that will at least hate Calvinism for what it actually teaches, so I can blow out my lamp and go to bed.

Calvinists teach that God decides who will and will not be saved. This is contrary to 1 Timothy 2:4 & 2 Peter 3:9 because God desires all to be saved - so it is not decided purely on God's desire. 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires "all men" to be saved. Based upon the verses preceding 1 Timothy 2:4, this "all men" cannot be referring to those who ultimately inherit salvation (i.e. the elect).

Paul uses the object "all men" and "all" in 1 Timothy 2:1, 4 and 6. Due to their proximity, Paul must be referring to the same object in all three instances. Paul could not be referring to the elect in 1 Timothy 2:1 because he expands upon that verse with 1 Timothy 2:2 which emphasizes praying for all who were in authority - many of whom in Paul's time were evil men who did not inherit salvation - such as Herod and Nero. If Paul was not referring to the elect in 1 Timothy 2:1, he was not referring to the elect in 1 Timothy 2:4 and 1 Timothy 2:6. Other translations read similarly.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NKJV​

Another way to look at things is that the elect are the ones who act on the promise of Acts 2:38-39.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

 

[Cormack]

I offered a relevant response to this topic at the start.

Actually you refused to contribute an on topic response, attempted to castigate the users who were accurately interacting with Calvinism as dishonest then implied Arminians were Satan and ought to get behind you. You’ve shared nothing on topic. You’ve tried to defend your soft social manipulation in an effort @ propping up the TULIP, rather than simply writing why you’d prefer that the 5 points of Calvinism were true.

which carefully avoids the critical core issue of the biblicity of the Doctrines of Grace.

I’ve written more than enough critiquing the “doctrines of grace” in this topic and elsewhere, so I’ve got no problem engaging with those views and zero reason to “carefully avoid” them. Instead I’ve engaged with those views on the basis of what they say. Read the topic.

So Merry Christmas and leave me out of your monologue.

Merry Christmas to you too.

 

[Cormack]

Let all things be established by a couple of witnesses. Anyone who reads from me can testify I LOVE writing about the “doctrine of grace.” All five points of the tulip, love them too

 

[Cormack]

Calvinists teach that God decides who will and will not be saved. This is contrary to 1 Timothy 2:4 & 2 Peter 3:9 because God desires all to be saved - so it is not decided purely on God's desire. 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires "all men" to be saved. Based upon the verses preceding 1 Timothy 2:4, this "all men" cannot be referring to those who ultimately inherit salvation (i.e. the elect).

Paul uses the object "all men" and "all" in 1 Timothy 2:1, 4 and 6. Due to their proximity, Paul must be referring to the same object in all three instances. Paul could not be referring to the elect in 1 Timothy 2:1 because he expands upon that verse with 1 Timothy 2:2 which emphasizes praying for all who were in authority - many of whom in Paul's time were evil men who did not inherit salvation - such as Herod and Nero. If Paul was not referring to the elect in 1 Timothy 2:1, he was not referring to the elect in 1 Timothy 2:4 and 1 Timothy 2:6. Other translations read similarly.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NKJV​

Another way to look at things is that the elect are the ones who act on the promise of Acts 2:38-39.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

Great Scott! Another poor lost soul who doesn’t understand Calvinism. . .

 

[Fervent]

No.

I once thought it was Biblical, and I nearly lost my faith by trying to live consistent with its entailments. There is no true way to love as Christ loves while holding to a Calvinistic frame of mind. It leads to exclusion of those not in the fold, because it entails a God who despises the unrepentant. Trying to live in that frame of mind, hating what God hates and loving what God loves, will create cognitive dissonance.

Eventually I got to a place where I couldn't in good conscience endorse such a faith. This crisis of faith led me on a long and winding path, but eventually I did what I wish I had done in the first place. I started reading the Bible as if I knew nothing about systematic theology and instead tried to understand each book or sub-section in its own light before drawing conclusions about what books that refer to it mean. Which meant a lot of studying in the Old Testament before reading the New Testament again. And I found that most of the ideas that I found so repugnant were foreign to the context instead relying on a mode of building doctrine that largely ignores what the author was trying to convey with given statements.

 

[SkyWriting]

Calvinists teach that God decides who will and will not be saved.

God decides everything. Though it feels like we have free will.

 

[SkyWriting]

No.

I once thought it was Biblical, and I nearly lost my faith by trying to live consistent with its entailments. There is no true way to love as Christ loves while holding to a Calvinistic frame of mind.

Absurd and unsubstantiated claim. Jesus followed the will of the law to His death and claimed it was His Fathers will in charge of what people even said. So while Jesus gave His Father credit for everything that ever happened, he managed to not let that stop Him from action.

 

[John Mullally]

God decides everything. Though it feels like we have free will.

If by God decides everything you mean God saves those who repent per Acts 2:38-39, I agree.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

If you mean that God predestines some to perdition, I disagree per 1 Timothy 2 - as we see that God desires all to be saved.

 

[SkyWriting]

If you mean that God predestines some to perdition, I disagree per 1 Timothy 2 - as we see that God desires all to be saved.

I mean God remembers what you decisions you will make tomorrow.
We are not only predestined, but our future is already in God's memory
and God planned accordingly before we were born.

Ephesians 1:4-5
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

 

[SkyWriting]

If by God decides everything you mean God saves those who repent per Acts 2:38-39,

I mean God remembers who is going to repent. And He planned accordingly before he formed the world.

 

[John Mullally]

I mean God remembers what you decisions you will make tomorrow.
We are not only predestined, but our future is already in God's memory.

I am no fan of fatalism - it is counterproductive as it leads towards sloth - we should live as we "ought to" per Luke 18:1. Why would Jesus question like he does in Luke 18:8 if everything is pre-decided?

Luke 18:1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’ ” 6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”​

 

[SkyWriting]

I am no fan of fatalism - it is counterproductive as it leads towards sloth.

I checked for "Sloth" and "Laziness" and found no support for your claim about it's cause.
And you didn't identify my laziness, so again, no support.
What Does the Bible Say About Sloth?
What Does the Bible Say About Laziness?

 

[John Mullally]

I checked for "Sloth" and "Laziness" and found no support for your claim about it's cause.
And you didn't identify my laziness, so again, no support.
What Does the Bible Say About Sloth?
What Does the Bible Say About Laziness?

Of course having a fatalist attitude leads towards sloth.

I mean God remembers what you decisions you will make tomorrow.
We are not only predestined, but our future is already in God's memory
and God planned accordingly before we were born.

Ephesians 1:4-5
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

The text seems to clearly indicate that God has predetermined that the “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (vs. 1) will become “holy and blameless” (sanctification – vs. 4) and they will be “adopted” (glorification – vs. 5.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.​

 

[atpollard]

Calvinists teach that God decides who will and will not be saved.

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh,“FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
- Romans 9​

 

[SkyWriting]

Of course having a fatalist attitude leads towards sloth.

Of course, you can prove it.

 

[SkyWriting]

I am no fan of fatalism - it is counterproductive as it leads towards sloth

It doesn't. Too bad for your argument.

 

[SkyWriting]

Of course having a fatalist attitude leads towards sloth.

We don't trust your fortune telling.

 

[Hmm]

Of course, you can prove it.

It's not a scientific theory so of course you can't prove it but it's obviously true. If someone really believed that everything is their life was fated, why wouldn't they life a complete hedonistic life? Why would they bother even getting out of bed? The fact that people don't live like that is proof, if you like, that they don't believe that everything is predetermined.

 

[John Mullally]

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh,“FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
- Romans 9​

Romans 9:1-5 leads us into what chapters 9 through 12 is about - which is Israel's rejection. The style in chapter 9 is rhetorical - Paul is taking up both sides of arguments. This passage you quoted was set forth to establish that God's motives and methods are beyond man's questioning. Its not to prove that God is cavalier.

But in answer to question on whom God will have mercy, we know the following: Peter in Acts 2:38-39 makes a promise that God will have mercy on those who repent and are baptized.

Concerning Pharaoh's hardening: Exodus 9:12 is the first time in the OT that God is recorded as hardening Pharaoh's heart; and yet we see evidence of Pharaoh hardening his own heart five times prior to that in Exodus 7:13, 7:22, 8:11, 8:15, and 8:28.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh,“FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
- Romans 9​

Romans 9 is not isolated from the rest of the book of Romans.

The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind in how they were trying to earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they found favor with God based on their nationality (in that they were God's people, Israel).

Romans 9:6-8 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of salvific nationalism.

Romans 9:9-16 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace) but salvation is by him who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus (Compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).

Romans 9:17-18 sets up the dilemma for the Israelite in being saved by God's grace and mercy on His terms. Pharaoh was hardened on God's terms in that we know that a person's heart is hardened by their own sin. For a believer who sins and hardens their heart, they can then fall into unbelief and depart from the living God (See: Hebrews 3:12-15). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The Israelite was hardening their heart against God on account of their sin or disobedience to the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).

Romans 9:19 is the Israelite complaining about how can God find fault because they believe they are doing God's will as an Israelite.

Romans 9:20 A voice answers the Israelite and criticizes the Israelite. The voice asks a question from the Israelite's perspective, “Why have you made me this way [i.e. as an Israelite, a keeper of the Law]?”

When reading Romans 9:21-23, we have to keep in mind that God elects based on His foreknowledge (His future foreknowledge of what they are going to do) (1 Peter 1:1-2). The language present in this passage is reminiscent of Jeremiah 18 about how God will form the clay based upon how a nation does not hear his voice, He will turn back on the good He would do unto them. God warns Jerusalem and Judah that He frames evil against them unless they repent. Meaning, based on what we do, a person will fall into one of two categories. The resurrection of life, and the resurrection of the damned (i.e. the vessels of wrath and mercy). God will render to every man according to his deeds (See: Romans 2:6).

Romans 9:30-32 clarifies (recaps) what was being said:

“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” (Romans 9:30-32).

“...rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” (Romans 11:11).

So Romans 9 is really not talking about Calvinistic Unconditional Election.

Even the word “call” used in Romans 9 in reference to God calling does not prove that God is forcing anything upon a person. For many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).


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