Would you eat halal meat?

[Monica child of God 1]

Now concerning things sacrificed to idols:

We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant but love builds up. But anyone who thinks that he knows anything does not yet know as he should know. On the other hand, if anyone loves God, such a person is known by him.

Therefore, concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. Indeed, although there are things called "gods" in the heavens or on earth—and there are many "gods" and many "lords"—yet, to us, there is one God the Father, from whom are all things; and we are for him; and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things, and we live through him.

However, such knowledge is not found in everyone. There are some who eat things sacrificed to an idol with awareness of the idol, and their conscience (Being weak) is defiled.

But food does not commend us to God, for if we eat, we are not better; and if we do not eat, we are not worse! However, be careful that your freedom may never become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone sees you who have knowledge sitting in an idol's temple, will not this person's conscience, if weak, be emboldened to eat things sacrificed to idols? And thus, through your knowledge, shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ!

Therefore, if food causes my brethren to stumble, I will never eat meat, so that I may not cause my brethren to stumble.

-St. Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 8

M.

 

[Cappadocious]

Theres a large muslim precense so the greeks lie and tell them the souvlakia are beef when there pork. Everytime im there a muslim asks if its pork or beef and every time they say its beef. Heck one time i ordered one chicken and one pork, the guy reminded me not to break protocol and to call it beef.

Classy.

 

[seashale76]

As per the Council of Jerusalem:
Act 15:19-20
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

That one time, in high school, when I went to Diwali at the local Hindu temple, I didn't eat anything because of this verse. I also don't eat the blood pudding at the local Irish pub (not that I'd want to anyway- I did accidentally once- mistaking it for sausage- and it was nasty).

I personally wouldn't knowingly buy halal. I only eat vegetarian at the local Muslim owned eatery I frequent. Their falafel is fantastic.

I was told that there are numerous Church canons against consuming blood. I'm not sure about the rest.

 

[Cappadocious]

As per the Council of Jerusalem:
Act 15:19-20
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

But the question is,

Was this a dispensation for that time, for the sake of not scandalizing the early Jewish Christians with the freedom of the gentile Christians, or was the pre-Christian Noahide Law meant for all time for the gentile Christians?

This is a question we have to ask ourselves. St. Paul's explanation in 1 Corinthians 8, and Christ's own explanation in Mark 7, would seem to suggest the former.

Many canons address issues that no longer exist in the Church.

 

[buzuxi02]

Classy.

You should of seen the expression on his face when i asked for pork. If looks could kill, forget about it.

(Me) Pork please..
(Him-hesitation while giving me an angry look) 'What??!!!
(me) Pork
(him) OXI!!! BEEF !!
(me) oh sorry i meant beef...:o



But in all seriousness, the scriptures advises us to refrain from foods prepared in a ritualistic manner of a foreign religion unless we have no choice. No, its not characterized as some life or death sin but something we should observe to the best of our ability.

Rev2.20 'Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols'.



Council of Ancyra:

CANON III.


'THOSE who have fled and been apprehended, or have been betrayed by their servants; or those who have been otherwise despoiled of their goods, or have endured tortures, or have been imprisoned and abused, declaring themselves to be Christians; or who have been forced to receive something which their persecutors violently thrust into their hands, or meat[offered to idols], continually professing that they were Christians; and who, by their whole apparel, and demeanour, and humility of life, always give evidence of grief at what has happened; these persons, inasmuch as they are free from sin, are not to be repelled from the communion; and if, through an extreme strictness or ignorance of some things, they have been repelled, let them forthwith be re-admitted. This shall hold good alike of clergy and laity. It has also been considered whether laymen who have fallen under the same compulsion may be admitted to orders, and we have decreed that, since they have in no respect been guilty, they may be ordained; provided their past course of life be found to have been upright.'

The above canon is also echoed in the canonical epistle of St. Gregory Thaumaturgos concerning certain christians who were captured by barbarians during a seige. That is if they are of good character no penalty for eating the offered meat should be brought against them. And yes he makes mention that these particular barbarians didnt seem to sacrifice their meat to idols so it was an easy decision.

Council of Gangra
Canon II.
If any one shall condemn him who eats flesh, which is without blood and has not been offered to idols nor strangled, and is faithful and devout, as though the man were without hope [of salvation] because of his eating, let him be anathema.

Theres other canons forbidding the recieving of food prepared for non-christian religious feasts and the feasting together in foreign religious feasts.

 

[MKJ]

Theres a large muslim precense so the greeks lie and tell them the souvlakia are beef when there pork. Everytime im there a muslim asks if its pork or beef and every time they say its beef. Heck one time i ordered one chicken and one pork, the guy reminded me not to break protocol and to call it beef.

So you won't eat meat that Paul says is, in and of itself, fine; but you are quite happy to conspire in lies to defraud people of their money?

 

[Cappadocious]

But in all seriousness, the scriptures advises us to refrain from foods prepared in a ritualistic manner of a foreign religion

Where do they talk about foods prepared in a ritualistic manner? I've only read about food sacrificed to idols.

If Halal and Kosher meat is unclean by virtue of "foreign religious preparation", then I suppose we should also take up those canons about not going to Jewish doctors as if they were meant for all time.

Rev2.20 'Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols'.

The reprimands to the churches in Revelation aren't really meant to be taken literally. After all, are those who "abandoned their first love" being reprimanded for their divorces?

It's Revelation. There's a reason we don't read it in church.

 

[buzuxi02]

So you won't eat meat that Paul says is, in and of itself, fine; but you are quite happy to conspire in lies to defraud people of their money?

Huh? I dont own the food cart, i eat at it. The shish kebobs are pork but those running the carts advertise them as beef. But the muslims atleast ask so they wont violate their religious principles. Christians dont care about anything.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

But the muslims atleast ask so they wont violate their religious principles. Christians dont care about anything.

Not true. I care about loving my neighbor. Love is more important than anything; love of God and love for your neighbor. Those are the two greatest commandments. Loving all people without prejudice, the way that Christ did. That is what it means to be a Christian and that is more important than food.

Nothing that I put in my mouth to eat can defile me. Nothing. Period. But lots of things that could say to my neighbor or ways that I could act toward my neighbor could defile me.

"Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

M.

 

[Dorothea]

Huh? I dont own the food cart, i eat at it. The shish kebobs are pork but those running the carts advertise them as beef. But the muslims atleast ask so they wont violate their religious principles. Christians dont care about anything.

I wish you'd quit with the derogatory comments on Greek Orthodox Christians.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Some of my neighbors own businesses that feed their families. My business goes to people of all backgrounds, because I want people to be well and survive in this economy. I'm not going to discriminate against Muslims who own restaurants that make a positive contribution to my city and my community.

I don't think eating in Muslim owned restaurants makes me more Islamic. I think it brings me into contact with more Muslims so that I can be friendly with them and offer a good experience interacting with a Christian.

Also, as Easy pointed out, I eat at Chinese, Vietnamese, and Indian places that often have an idol displayed. I personally consider an idol to be nothing at all of consequence and I am not bothered by eating food that people have blessed or even sacrificed to other, nonexistent gods. .

Loving others as neighbors is a big deal. Within black communities where there are high populations of Asian groups who own businesses, from the resturants to the laundry mats, it's a big deal to ensure that all are connected/treated as we'd like our fellow man to be...and many of them already have a really big community mindset. Sister Thekla and I had a good dialouge on the issue elsewhere, as seen here and here.

For others tripping on the Halel food dynamic because of fear that one will be supporting idolatry, I wonder..

IMHO, even with choosing not to buy the meat that's labeled as Halel, there'd really be NO way logically to avoid all forms of gods/goddesses and idols due to how all things in life done outside of glorification to the Lord are a FALSE god/idol. The only route would be to simply not go to the super-market and buy anything at all--and that goes for the resturants, fast-food chains, the food courts at the mall and even the snack machine since the entire planet is dedicated to the "god of this world" ( 2 Corinthians 4:4, 1 John 5:19, etc).

We're not to be involved in celebration to false gods/idols---but if the goal is avoid all products dedicated unto them after the fact, there's no real way of doing so since it all around.....and all of the focus on Halel foods seems extremely inconsistent if thinking that avoiding it alone means one has done their duty in avoiding (according to their logic) idols/food dedicated to them.

One couldn't go to ANY Super-Market and buy food since the reality is that everything done outside of worship for the Lord is essentially an idol...and be it with Publix, Kroger, Food Lion (if you remember those), Piggly Wiggly, Costco or Wal-Mart, people making/selling food there are not doing so to the Lord. There are gods/idols of Secular Humanism, Atheism, Consumerism and many other things that actions are done for ....but no one here is going to stop buying from that simply because the unsaved make food for reasons that Christians would not agree with.

With everyone focusing on idols/food, I wonder if they'd stop going to places like "Chin-Chin"/Chinese resturants or Japanese Steakhouses since most of them that I've seen either have a statue of Buddah or some kind of god right in the front door

Interestingly enough, one man I know noted that the guy that runs the halal market that he occassionally goes to isn't doing so for the glory of God. Rather, he was doing it to make a living, make money. In fact, if it were not for the sign that says "Halal Market", you'd have no clue you were in a store run by a Muslim. What you would think is that they have some unusual products that you don't see in the local "chain" markets. Technically, it'd not matter if the owner of a Halel store was selling food with the motive of glorifying God just as much as he was doing it to make financial gain (as occurs in many resturants)--for the reality is that what he does is essentially the same as the owners in stores like Publix or Kroger and nearly all Resturants/Fast-Food chains when it comes to not having Jesus in mind/glorifying our Creator when he operates....making the situation, by default, a situation where worship has gone to something that is an idol or another "god"

I like Indian food and there's an Indian Resturant near my side of town that I've frequented often. They often have Indian T.V/News in the resturant as well as magazines on what is happening in the Indian community. In the magazines, they have ads for Hindu festivals, gurus and celebrations alongside discussing political events relevant to the Indian community..but I know that when I'm there, I'm not getting food for the purposes of worshipping any false deities. Moreover, I understand that I cannot try to say that only an Indian resturant is bad due to having references to false gods and yet anytime I go to Wal-Mart or Kroger there are a host of false ideologies in the magazines there (i.e Cosmopolitan, Glamor Girl, Jet Magazine, Men's Health, Sports Illustrated etc) sharing philosophies that glorify other "gods" like self-magnification, consumerism, greed, sexual immorality, pleasure and many other things.

People often think in Western culture that something isn't "worship" due to them actively giving attention to it--like saying "I worship Satan" when living for themselves---but one can worship something without knowing it if/when their lifestyle lines up directly with something counter to Christ. That's why idolatry is often one of the most difficult sins to get rid of since many live in a world of dualism where they try to seperate elements that were never meant to be seperated.




One leader within the body of Christ, known as Alan Hirsh, tried to address it the best (IMHO) when it came to noting Dualism in the Christian world.....and life in general. For when people try to say things such as "this is sacred" or this is "secular" and don't see the Lord in all things, they tend to try to create categories where none exist...and tolerate behaviors that normally would not be acceptable because they treat certain areas of their lives as "seperate" from their walks with the Lord. For more, one can go online/look up the work entitled the following:

• The Forgotten Ways: Reactivating the Missional Church"
• "The Forgotten Ways Handbook: A Practical Guide for Developing Missional Churches"().

Alan Hirsch, in the book, the Forgotten Ways, offers the following reflection:

"Isn't it interesting that most churchgoers report a radical disconnect between the God that rules Sunday to the gods that rule Monday? How many of us live as if there were different gods for every sphere of life? A god for work, another for family, a different one when we are at the movies, or one for our politics. No wonder the average churchgoer can't seem to make sense of it all. All this results from a failure to respond truly to the One God. This failure can be addressed only by a discipleship that responds by offering all the disparate elements of our lives back to God, thus unifying our lives under his lordship" (97).
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There are a myriad of ways people can end up living like de-facto polytheists and not really understand it....

And it's something to remember today. The original Hebrew context was polytheistic. The message to them was, Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one; love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength. (Deut 6.4-9). Torah relates all aspects of life to God – from the temple to what you do when your donkey falls into a pit. The early church proclaims ‘Jesus is Lord’ in the same way; the gods were different, but still many, as indeed they are today. They refused to keep the pantheon and the overlordship of Caesar...for Jesus is Lord. We have adopted Christocentric monotheism...so genuinely Messianic monotheism rejects separation of sacred from secular. Our task is to make all aspects of life sacred, and not to limit the presence of God to spooky religious zones. God is not only encountered in special places, requiring a priestly paraphernalia to mediate our experience of him. God, Church and World are three overlapping circles (not God and World separate with Church in the middle linking them!). Our task is to integrate all aspects of life under the lordship of Jesus – leave one out (eg apartheid, or work) and disaster follows. In Rwanda, ‘Christian’ served as a brand name, but not a commitment to a common Lord, which would have stopped Christians killing one another.

Anytime dualistic, while we may be confessing monotheists, we may end up practicing polytheists..for dualistic expressions of faith always lead to practical polytheism...

The scriptures command that "whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God" ( 1 Corinthians 10:30-32 , Colossians 3:16-18, etc) ...and that goes for all aspects of life. For anytime someone references the Lord, it is an acknowledgment and offering.....just as we offer our lifestyles up to him in acknowledgement of who he is (Romans 1:18-24, Romans 12:1-5, etc) and honor him in daily activities.

It's one thing to not participate in celebrating false gods/idols ..as Paul warned against that when saying in I Corinthians 10 that one cannot partake in the table of demons and the Lord's table...but its another to use food that was dedicated to idols/raised by idolatrous people and utilize it for the glory of the Lord since the Lord is the one who owns everything--and people down here below simply use his products for the wrong purposes, thus making their actions to be avoided rather than the product alone...in the same way that one doesn't stop using cars since drunk drivers kill people rather than the vehicles.

In the event that it may cause another to stumble, certain foods I'll not eat around them...for food is not something worth fighting over---and just as we're all in need of His grace, we must extend grace to one another just as in all other areas...as Romans 14:14-23 and Romans 15 note.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't think eating in Muslim owned restaurants makes me more Islamic. I think it brings me into contact with more Muslims so that I can be friendly with them and offer a good experience interacting with a Christian.

Also, as Easy pointed out, I eat at Chinese, Vietnamese, and Indian places that often have an idol displayed. I personally consider an idol to be nothing at all of consequence and I am not bothered by eating food that people have blessed or even sacrificed to other, nonexistent gods.

If I may say,

I've never witnessed any food sacrificed to an idol, nor do I give it consideration, for "we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one" (1 Cor. 8:4). If, by chance, a brother had a weak conscience and lacked the knowledge that there is only one God, I would refrain from such food (1 Cor. 10:28-29).

1 Corinthians 8 and Romans 14 specifically address this matter, with some more information found in 1 Corinthians 10.

Alongside what Paul mentioned about a weak brother, he also noted how one should eat the food set before him if an unbeliever invites you to have dinner with them:

I Corinthians 10:27-33

Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[f]

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
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What Paul noted doesn't seem to speak necessarily on the subject of whether all aspects of ceremonial food laws are non-important...but IMHO, it does give some good food for thought in regards to principles one can learn from when struggling with the degree one can go in fellowshipping to win another's heart.
On what Paul noted, I Corinthians 8 immediately comes to mind, specifically Romans 14-15 come to mind...and so do I Corinthians 8:9-13
I Corinthians 10:14-33 comes to mind as well.

Just say, for example, that a Hindu invites you to his house where he has offered up prayers to his god for the food. Would you eat it? Some may say yes..... To a degree, I’d say the same too (Luke 10). No doubt, I would have great difficulty going to a Hindu home and sitting through a prayer to a false god. However, I can envision myself doing this...IF I were not placing stumbling blocks in someone else's path by being seen doing this. If a weaker brother were there, I would NOT participate in such a scenario.

And as the Hindu was praying to his demon, I would not join in his prayer, but would pray to the one true God, that He would be manifested in that very circumstance. But even if your’e a guest of an unbeliever and don’t wish to offend him, it is better to offend the unbeliever (according to Paul) who may be with you and not eat for the sake of the weaker Christian who may be with you & who would be offended to eat, since love for other believers is the strongest witness we have (John 13:34-35)….

Sometimes it’s hard knowing when to defer to the weaker believer….but Paul gives a simple rule of thumb in making the decision. We should be sensitive and gracious….for the goal isn’t hyper-sensitivity that worries about what others might possibly think, but genuine awareness of others/a willingness to limit what we do when there’s a real possibility of misunderstanding/offense. Some actions may not be wrong, but they may be in the best interests of others…..and even with Freedom in Christ, it’s can’t be done at the cost of hurting others.

I think Paul’s statement on Idols/Conscience has to do with how we should be sensitve to the meaning of our actions to new believers who are sorting out how to renounce sinful ways from the past & live for Christ. That doesn’t mean we should make a career of being offended at people with over-sensitive consciencs, for believers musn’t project their standards on others.

On I Corinthians 10:14-22, Paul applied the example of Israel’s idolatry to the problem in I Corinthians 8—–eating meat sacrificed to idols. There is the danger of going a step beyond just eating sacrificed meat to that of joining the pagans in the sacrifical feasts in their pagan temples. To do that would indeed be wrong and sinful since Paul illustrates this by showing participation in the Lord’s Supper to signify a believer is in COMMUNION—in a sharing relationship (koinonia)–with the Savior. So participation in idol feasts in pagan temples means sharing in pagan worship……..and one cannot get past how such participation is forbidden

How believers today must discern how the illustration applies to our own lives is still the issue, though.

In I Corinthians 10:18-20, Paul compared the OT sacrifices with pagan offerings. When the people of Israel sacrificed at the altar and ate part of the sacrifice (Lev 7:15, Lev 8:31, Deut 12:17-18), they participated in and became part of the sacrifical system/worship of God. Though Paul says he doesn’t mean idols are anything, he does make clear that when they sacrifice they do so with DEMONS.

There’s always a spiritual aspect and he doesn’t want the Corinthians to share in worship having to do with demons. As radical as it sounds, a Christian cannot simultaneously participate in the meal/table dedicated to a Pagan God while also sharing in the table of the Lord, whether intentionally or innocently...so chilling to eat a meal offered up to Buddah at the Hindu's house (regarding the earlier analogy) may not be an option for today.

If we share in Pagan idolatry, THE SCRIPTURE’S very clear we’ll arouse God’s jealously and incite Him to action in his HATRED FOR SIN/MIXED ALLEGIANCEs or opening the door for the appearance of such (Deut 32:21, Psalm 78:58, Romans 12:17)…….and IMHO, we see nowhere in the Scriptures where Paul ever did so when witnessing with individuals.

Going to a Hindu's house for dinner may be one thing, but going to a full-out Hindu festival like Maha Shivaratri or Guru Purnima and dining out as if it's all good is a different story.

Regarding the issue of verses 25-31 (I Corinthians 10), though Paul said meat eaten at an idol feast associated with pagan worship/contaminated, meat eaten in the market places wasn’t an issue since it’d lost it’s RELIGIOUS SIGNIFICANCE and is all right to eat and this is where Paul teaches to eat meat without raising issues of conscience since meat/all things come from the Lord (I Corinthians 10:26, Psalm 24, Psalm 50:1, Psalm 89:11, I Timothy 4:1-5, Hebrews 13:9, etc).

In practice, meat sold at Publix or Piggly-Wiggly shouldn’t bother me if it was used previously at a Hindu festival since I don’t know of it’s orgin and the purpose is simply meat being sold for grub.

But if a unbeliever—such as a Hindu–invites me to dinner at their house, Scripture seems to indicate Paul may’ve had in mind the believer giving the unbeliever a quiet/apprecitiative testimony. And that's only permissible if another believer doesn't point out meat was offered to an idol. At that point, be content with an empty stomach because the freedom has condemned another man’s conscience despite any “rights’ One may have.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

So we are not to eat meat sacrificed to false gods if:

It would mislead a weak person who would be tempted to eat things sacrificed to an idol with awareness of the idol, that is, as if the idol were actually Divine and you were offering it a service.

Muslims do not think that their halal food is a sacrifice to their monad god, and almost no pagans or atheists think that their halal food is a sacrifice to the Muslim's monad god.

Therefore I don't think we'd be misleading anyone.

But if we were in the company of a "weak brother" who associated halal with a sacrifice to the Muslim's monad god, then perhaps we ought to eat elsewhere so as not to be an unnecessary scandal to them.

For many, it's interesting when considering aspects of halal that seem to have been overlooked in this discussion. For when it comes to "offering up something", what is that? What exactly, does it mean to "offer" meat to a god(s)? Does it mean to "offer" it to them as in I would "offer" you a cup of coffee, imploring you to take it, to accept it from me? Or is it more of a matter of something being offered up directly regardless of formalities?

The method of slaughter only states that the one doing the slaughtering should be facing east and do so in the name of Allah. Is that offering or is that acknowledging that this "food" came from God? Some see it as a means of acknowledging, even giving thanks to God, that what has been given as food has been given by God. They're not asking "God" to accept anything but they are acknowledging that God has provided. Facing east? So what? I don't see that any being any different than requiring someone trained in a specfic method of slaughter to us a straight honed knife as opposed to serrated in order for a food to be considered kosher. God never commanded the Muslim to face east. He never commanded a straight honed knife be used. Both are merely traditions that may be observed or ignored with no consequence for doing or not doing.

And yet on the same token, offering can be both offering in a knowing sense and in the sense of ignorance where your lifestyle is an offering whether we realize or not. The scriptures command that "whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God" ( 1 Corinthians 10:30-32 , Colossians 3:16-18, etc) , the same concept is present in the Muslim world when they do things to the glory of God (as they understand it) by recognizing Him in all actions, big and small....and not trying to make it out as if how one handles their transactions is of no consqeuence. Anytime someone references the Lord, it is an acknowledgment and offering.....just as we offer our lifestyles up to him in acknowledgement of who he is (Romans 1:18-24, Romans 12:1-5, etc) and honor him in daily activities.