Would Trump defend Australia if we were attacked? We HAD a big purchase deal worked out... but....

[Always in His Presence]

I'm genuinely curious - where did you get that figure? What do you think it represents? Because it's not what you think it is.

I screen shouted and linked it Try going back and reading the post

 

[eclipsenow]

I screen shouted and linked it Try going back and reading the post

That's your entire military budget. Are you saying you should NOT defend yourselves at least?

I was talking about how much the EU has purchased off America.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Wow - amazing magic handwaving? Where is the "Prestige" - the thing that replaces the other thing you just smuggled away with your left hand? Because I'm not seeing one?

First - this is about mutual security. I know America thinks it can be totally isolationist and defend itself - but as WW2 showed - what happens overseas matters and eventually comes back to bite America.

Second - by trying to make it all about me obsessing over Trump - you think you can make all these inconvenient facts just vanish with a flick of your left hand?

This is about all those Americans that benefit from having a QUARTER of your military industrial complex supported by the EU!

Weapons manufacture employs something like a million people directly - so that's about 250k people's jobs paid for by the EU. (Back of the envelope.) But - the supply chains throughout your broader economy to the military have a 4 to 1 ratio of jobs to every $million spent on defence procurement.

IF the EU stops buying American military hardware completely - that could be something like 800,000 to 1,000,000 jobs - high paying Aerospace jobs above $100,000, through to supplying widgets for those industries.

Not to mention that DARPA etc will shrink, as the EU's picks up. The EU have 450 million people - 516 if the UK ever re-joins. This could lead to a boom across their whole economy - from military R&D that America used to have the leading edge in.

But while America's had the best deal out of this for decades - Trump's constant whining has you all thinking you're victims and has brainwashed you into isolation - right when China's 1.4 BILLION people are becoming a real threat with all their new military hardware and R&D!

It used to be the mighty NATO working together to defend against Russia and China.

Now it's America against everyone - and crying over pocket change!
You are all such victims! But you've all drunk Trump's coolaid.

THEN there's what happens as the world looks elsewhere - and starts to realise they don't want the American dollar as the world's reserve currency anymore. Wow - I haven't even got my head around how utterly enormous that situation could become!
And people voted for this guy based on what he was going to do to 'save the economy'?
Wow that's a full mind-explosion!

The irony? American Trump voters are walking around with a chip on their shoulders as if the world's been ripping you off and you're all such victims - when you've actually had an unbelievably privileged and rewarding deal over all this - for decades! While you all walk around feeling like victims, it's the rest of the world that has actually been betrayed. Old alliances, strong partnerships, economic trade, cultural understandings, academic institutions, medical research: all threatened by this one man!

Younger people have no idea what's just happened - how fundamental this is! As I've quoted before - this NTY article gets it.

In Canada and Mexico you now win popularity by treating America as your foe. Over the next few years, I predict, Trump will cut a deal with China, doing to Taiwan some version of what he has already done to Ukraine — betray the little guy to suck up to the big guy. Nations across Asia will come to the same conclusion the Europeans have already reached: America is a Judas.​

​

This is not just a Trump problem; America’s whole reputation is shot. I don’t care if Abraham Lincoln himself walked into the White House in 2029, no foreign leader can responsibly trust a nation that is perpetually four years away from electing another authoritarian nihilist.​

​

So what’s going to happen?​

​

NATO is over. Joe Biden spent four years defending the postwar liberal order. That order grew out of a specific historical experience: Isolationism after World War I led to the horrors of World War II; internationalism after World War II led to 80 years of superpower peace. You tell that narrative to the younger generations and many look at you as if you’re talking about the 14th century. The postwar order was a historic accomplishment, but it was a product of its time, and we are not going back to it. It does no good to try to revive the ghost of Dean Acheson; we have to think of a new global architecture.​

The West is (temporarily) over. What we call “the West” is a centuries-long conversation — Socrates searching for truth, Rembrandt embodying compassion, Locke developing enlightenment liberalism, Francis Bacon pioneering the scientific method. This is our heritage. For all of our history America understood itself as the culmination of the great Western project. The idea of the West was reified in all the alliances and exchanges between Europe and North America.​

But the category “the West” does not seem to be in Donald Trump’s head. Trump is cutting America off from its spiritual and intellectual roots. He has completed the project that Jesse Jackson started in 1987 when he and a bunch of progressive activists at Stanford chanted, “Hey, hey, ho, ho, Western Civ has got to go.”​

I appreciate your interest in our country and politics. But seeing as you do not live here and have no history or actual stake in the outcome, I am not sure what you expect from this discussion. You have to see it (if you are genuinely interested) from our (American citizens/voters) point of view.
I can mainly speak for myself; both my grandfathers were drafted into WWI: France. My father was an officer in the Pacific theater of WWII. My uncle Gene did 2 tours in Vietnam and one in Korea (2 purple hearts and a silver star). My uncle Robert was an officer in the US Navy, also in the Pacific theater. I and my three brothers were Vietnam-era veterans. My #2 son is a Gulf War-era vet. I could go back through the Civil War and Revolutionary War, but those were not foreign... so I will skip them. All these were wars fought on foreign soil. We can bring up the Cold War, where the US pretty much held the USSR at bay for decades, giving the world a chance to rebuild after its last war. But my opinion is we (my family) have contributed more than enough toward the peace, safety, and economic welfare of the rest of the world. One of the concepts of MAGA is to make America not just Great Again but First again. Let's take care of our country and people before going into more wars and deeper debt to save the rest of the world. I think they can go it on their own for a while. We just have no stomach for more wars for other countries and other lands. Especially given the current attitude toward the US around the world. The old saying goes, "If one will have friends, they must show themselves friendly." We are not seeing a lot of that these days...

 

[Bradskii]

We just have no stomach for more wars for other countries and other lands. Especially given the current attitude toward the US around the world. The old saying goes, "If one will have friends, they must show themselves friendly." We are not seeing a lot of that these days...

Gee. Let me try to work out why...

 

[SavedByGrace3]

This is what we are talking about.
Why are US taxpayers funding Australian universities? And why are they so indignant when we cease the flow???
"Sky News Australia reports a downturn in Australia-US relations stemming from the Trump administration's decision to cease funding for seven Australian universities. This action followed inquiries to researchers about Chinese funding and university stances on gender. Prime Minister Albanese is urged to convene an emergency meeting to assess the impact of this funding cut, potentially leaving a significant deficit for Australian research. The US administration cited its "America First" agenda, objecting to "DEI, woke gender ideology and the green new deal" as reasons for this funding pause, prioritising American taxpayer money for domestic priorities. Australian science and education bodies are calling for a strong government response to protect research interests, though the Australian government states it will continue to advocate for collaborative research. The US has indicated that its funding decisions will align with its own priorities."

 

[eclipsenow]

But seeing as you do not live here and have no history or actual stake in the outcome,

Trump's weird snuggling up to Putin might just make Putin overconfident and cross some red line in Europe.
One nuclear war can ruin your whole day.

I am not sure what you expect from this discussion.

Americans to demand better of their President.

Americans to realise how much Trump has betrayed the entire western world by weaking NATO and snuggling up to Putin - trying to give Putin everything he wants!

Americans to realise Trump LIED to them about fixing their economy - and he's going to take down a bunch of allies as well!

I can mainly speak for myself; both my grandfathers .... etc etc etc.

Really? You're going to lecture Australians about Vietnam as if you did us a favour in Vietnam?

I myself served in the Australian army - and heard a lot from Vietnam vets in my time.

Vietnam was a mess - achieved nothing - and was not defending America.
But we backed you up anyway.
America said GO!
So we went!
We BLED for you.
No one else told us to go to Vietnam.
Just our friends in America.

Now we're asking - are you still there America?
Got our backs?
Nope.
It's Trump time!
Allies don't matter.

America maintained world peace by backing NATO all the way - and prospered from 80 years without a major powers war.
American Presidents DISCOURAGED an EU army because with their NATO funding, they kept Europe depending on American military kit - which paid America back for NATO many times over.

Sure maybe the EU could do more - but they'll need time to get their act together.
If America pulls out now - it's a HUGE mistake and enormous betrayal of stuff America used to believe in!

As the NYT says... (and I'll keep sharing this because it makes so many great points...)

It’s very hard to do big things alone. So competent leaders and nations rely on relationships built on shared values, shared history and shared trust. They construct coalitions to take on the big challenges of the age, including the biggest: whether the 21st century is going to be a Chinese century or another American century.​

In that contest the Chinese have many advantages, but until recently America had the decisive one — we had more friends around the world. Unfortunately, over the last month and a half, America has smashed a lot of those relationships to smithereens.​

President Trump does not seem to notice or care that if you betray people, or jerk them around, they will revile you. Over the last few weeks, the Europeans have gone from shock to bewilderment to revulsion. This period was for them what 9/11 was for us — the stripping away of illusions, the exposure of an existential threat. The Europeans have realized that America, the nation they thought was their friend, is actually a rogue superpower.​

In Canada and Mexico you now win popularity by treating America as your foe. Over the next few years, I predict, Trump will cut a deal with China, doing to Taiwan some version of what he has already done to Ukraine — betray the little guy to suck up to the big guy. Nations across Asia will come to the same conclusion the Europeans have already reached: America is a Judas.​

 

[Bradskii]

This is what we are talking about.
Why are US taxpayers funding Australian universities?

They're not funding the universities per se. That are funding research at the universities. Which is then obviously shared with the US. We're talking about matters such as geology, agriculture, foreign aid etc. It's not that Trump is saying 'these are a waste of money'. What he's doing is asking if the universities have the same ideology as he does.

They were sent a memo, which said in part:

'“In the interim, to the extent permissible under applicable law, Federal agencies must temporarily pause all activities related to obligation or disbursement of all Federal financial assistance, and other relevant agency activities that may be implicated by the executive orders, including, but not limited to, financial assistance for foreign aid, nongovernmental organizations, DEI, woke gender ideology, and the green new deal.”

It's the same as USAID. Stop everything and then we'll check to see if there's no 'DEI' or 'woke ideology'. And heaven forbid that some research might be on climate change.

But don't worry about it. We'll get the funding from elsewhere. From people with whom we will share the research. You can do it on your own from now on.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Trump's weird snuggling up to Putin might just make Putin overconfident and cross some red line in Europe.
One nuclear war can ruin your whole day.


Americans to demand better of their President.

Americans to realise how much Trump has betrayed the entire western world by weaking NATO and snuggling up to Putin - trying to give Putin everything he wants!

Americans to realise Trump LIED to them about fixing their economy - and he's going to take down a bunch of allies as well!


Really? You're going to lecture Australians about Vietnam as if you did us a favour in Vietnam?

I myself served in the Australian army - and heard a lot from Vietnam vets in my time.

Vietnam was a mess - achieved nothing - and was not defending America.
But we backed you up anyway.
America said GO!
So we went!
We BLED for you.
No one else told us to go to Vietnam.
Just our friends in America.

Now we're asking - are you still there America?
Got our backs?
Nope.
It's Trump time!
Allies don't matter.

America maintained world peace by backing NATO all the way - and prospered from 80 years without a major powers war.
American Presidents DISCOURAGED an EU army because with their NATO funding, they kept Europe depending on American military kit - which paid America back for NATO many times over.

Sure maybe the EU could do more - but they'll need time to get their act together.
If America pulls out now - it's a HUGE mistake and enormous betrayal of stuff America used to believe in!

As the NYT says... (and I'll keep sharing this because it makes so many great points...)

It’s very hard to do big things alone. So competent leaders and nations rely on relationships built on shared values, shared history and shared trust. They construct coalitions to take on the big challenges of the age, including the biggest: whether the 21st century is going to be a Chinese century or another American century.​

In that contest the Chinese have many advantages, but until recently America had the decisive one — we had more friends around the world. Unfortunately, over the last month and a half, America has smashed a lot of those relationships to smithereens.​

President Trump does not seem to notice or care that if you betray people, or jerk them around, they will revile you. Over the last few weeks, the Europeans have gone from shock to bewilderment to revulsion. This period was for them what 9/11 was for us — the stripping away of illusions, the exposure of an existential threat. The Europeans have realized that America, the nation they thought was their friend, is actually a rogue superpower.​

In Canada and Mexico you now win popularity by treating America as your foe. Over the next few years, I predict, Trump will cut a deal with China, doing to Taiwan some version of what he has already done to Ukraine — betray the little guy to suck up to the big guy. Nations across Asia will come to the same conclusion the Europeans have already reached: America is a Judas.​

Good grief..nm

 

[eclipsenow]

Good grief..nm

What - you're confronted by the fact that we joined you in a pointless war and bled for you - and now we're asking if we can even believe you would do the same for us?

Or is it the technical and geopolitical reality that we ever since Oppenheimer invented his toy, there's "nowhere to run to baby, nowhere to hide." Then Edward Teller invented HIS TOY (the H-bomb) and I'm left wondering not just about the fate of civilisation across the entire northern hemisphere - but how many species would go extinct in the nuclear winter that followed?

How we all miss the good old days when we could just chant "If you don't like it - go home!"
But that's globalisation I guess - both in the economy - and in the consequences of nuclear war.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

The name isn't in the top ten in NSW. NSW’s top baby names for 2024 revealed

And I'm a little embarresed to have to point out to an Australian (you list Queensland as your home) that Canberra is actually our capital (not Sydney).

Sorry for the late reply (work ... ) ...

QLD is mentioned as the state where I live, and usually I do, but AU is not really my home country - so that caused some confusion. I googled but it looks like in AU one can only look up only popular names by State, it's not published per Council / LGA. If it were I'm sure the statistics for Sydney would look quite different from NSW.

In Berlin Mohammed has been the top name for several years now. Amsterdam is the same. And so on ....

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Allow me to enumerate these points for clarity and understanding.

Between 6.4% and 6.7% of the German population are Muslim, 48% of the German population identify as Christian, and 46% of the German population do not identify with any religion.

I assume everyone understands that 48% is greater than 6.7%. For those concerned about Sharia law in Germany, there is a greater chance of Leviticus law being implemented than Sharia law.

Have you visited any Muslim-dominated areas in Europe lately? Have you studied the gradient of those population nrs in the last decades? You're not aware of what Muslim pressure already has changed in the public space in Europe out of fear for consequences? Have you listened to some preachers that openly state their goals and what they think of Western democracy and its values?

Quite recently I watched an interview of Richard Dawkins by Piers Morgan (UK) - he was asked some questions on Islam off the cuff, previously uninformed. Dawkins was visibly upset and simply refused to answer - it was obvious he didn't dare to speak his mind out of fear for violence or legal consequence.

Your last paragraph is hilarious - are you seriously implying the Jewish push for Torah is greater than the Islamic push for Sharia in Germany? Have you counted the number of Sharia courts in the UK operating as we speak? You are aware of honour killings taking place in Europe within the Islamic demographic? Christians don't push for Leviticus Laws .. they don't even keep those themselves.

Understand me well, I don't hate Muslims at all - I love them. Yet I see societies change before my eyes, and not for the better, given the Western values assumed to be commonplace in the 20st century.

 

[eclipsenow]

Understand me well, I don't hate Muslims at all - I love them. Yet I see societies change before my eyes, and not for the better, given the Western values assumed to be commonplace in the 20st century.

And yet this does not really justify why you are sympathetic to Trump making NATO seem weaker to Putin and Ping. When you're done ranting out your paranoia about Islam - get back to us with some thoughts about that will you? You know - the OP and all that?

I get that the western world needs to have a long hard think, with the best of our philosophers, about the relationship between freedom of religion and democratic expression of that and how it works when one religion wants to become political and take control itself - ending freedom. Where is the balance of that? However, before Israel stirred things up with Zionism before WW1 - Palestine demonstrated that Christians and Jews and Muslims lived peacefully together for many generations.

It's harder to be a Christian in Israel than in Palestine! My rather right-wing uncle-in-law was a missionary in Africa and saw some nasty things involving Islam - but he had friends in Israel that taught him that lesson. Yet Trumpism defends Israel's war crimes from the ICC - and arms Israel to the teeth while they break any concept of Just War Theory's "Proportional Response." What's the death toll now? 50 TIMES the original terrorist crime?

I've already quoted David Brooks in the NATO finances thread - about how Trump does not have a philosophical bone in his body. About how he doesn't care about the legacy of 'the west' - and just seems to admire raw power. To admire it, and want it himself. Ideas like loyalty to western democratic values are inconsistent with his all consuming narcissism and quest for personal power. And the puppet masters? They play him like a harp! Flatter his narcissism and he'll ban abortion for you! Give him narcissistic supply and he'll give Israel more weapons!

There's even an argument to be made that Trump's tariffs are about shaking down the American economy in a recession so Trump's other billionaire mates - the front row at his crowning - can simply buy more of the American share-market and economy during the recession. Then after the next President comes back in and tries to restore everything - Musk and Co will have even MORE power over the American people!

But apparently we can overlook all that - because ... Islam ... or something.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Have you visited any Muslim-dominated areas in Europe lately? Have you studied the gradient of those population nrs in the last decades? You're not aware of what Muslim pressure already has changed in the public space in Europe out of fear for consequences? Have you listened to some preachers that openly state their goals and what they think of Western democracy and its values?

Quite recently I watched an interview of Richard Dawkins by Piers Morgan (UK) - he was asked some questions on Islam off the cuff, previously uninformed. Dawkins was visibly upset and simply refused to answer - it was obvious he didn't dare to speak his mind out of fear for violence or legal consequence.

Your last paragraph is hilarious - are you seriously implying the Jewish push for Torah is greater than the Islamic push for Sharia in Germany? Have you counted the number of Sharia courts in the UK operating as we speak? You are aware of honour killings taking place in Europe within the Islamic demographic? Christians don't push for Leviticus Laws .. they don't even keep those themselves.

Understand me well, I don't hate Muslims at all - I love them. Yet I see societies change before my eyes, and not for the better, given the Western values assumed to be commonplace in the 20st century.

Yes, I have visited several European cities that have large Arab communities. My wife is from Europe, so I spend at least two weeks there each year.

Do some European countries face challenges with certain Arab Muslim communities? Yes, they do. Instead of blaming Muslims, it is important to examine the root causes of these issues. Between 2010 and 2017, when many Muslims migrated to Europe, some European countries did not have effective migration programs. Many countries opened their borders without offering integration programs to help migrants learn the language and culture and assimilate into society. Estonia, for example, had a successful migration program. They accepted refugees from Syria and provided them with language lessons and skill training to help them find suitable professions. As a result, Arab Muslims in Estonia are thriving, while those in Germany or France often live in poverty and face challenges. Similar programs have been implemented in Finland and Norway to assimilate migrants into society. The government helps migrants adapt to the new country, find jobs, and connect with supportive communities. These programs have been highly successful in integrating newcomers. When people are happy, have food and shelter, and their children are cared for and enrolled in university, they are less likely to engage in destructive behaviors.

You can criticize Muslims inability to integrate into Western culture, but your views seem naive. Throughout my 30-year career, I have visited nearly all major cities in the Middle East and worked in various companies in that region, sometimes for up to six months. I have extensive knowledge of Arab culture, Muslim culture, and Islam.

Your love for Muslim is like my love for rattlesnakes. I find rattlesnakes fascinating and enjoy watching them on the Discovery Channel. However, I prefer they stay in the southern US and not near where I live.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Your love for Muslim is like my love for rattlesnakes. I find rattlesnakes fascinating and enjoy watching them on the Discovery Channel. However, I prefer they stay in the southern US and not near where I live.

Well I live across from you and we have rattlesnakes in Michigan. Mississauga rattlesnake, of course they are from Canada so that's another reason to invade.

On a different note, I have often wondered how easily an American citizen from a Texas trailer park would be able to successfully assimilate to Finland if they had little money and didn't speak Finnish. Probably not so easy.

 

[eclipsenow]

Australia has strategic value to the US and is a reliable ally

That is nice to hear.
Sadly, that is what we were.
But as Australian reporter Michael Pascoe says - "This America is a foreign entity, not the one Morrison and Albanese jumped into bed with four years ago."

Even all my conservative Australian friends pretty much agree with Pascoe's article:

“Alas, while Trump is abhorrent, he is not an aberration. His administration is the fulfilment of conservative America’s drift further and further right into populist nationalism and isolationism. It is not coming back.​

Conservative America, the one controlling the United States, is a different country. The clichés that have embroidered the chaining of our wagon to the US – “shared values”, “cultural affinities”, “the international rules-based order” – no longer apply. They are lies.​

When it comes to liberal/democratic values and attitudes towards international cooperation, multidecade World Values Survey research shows this America is more closely aligned with Putin’s Russia and Erdoğan’s Türkiye than with “the West”. The values held by various European conservative parties – in Germany, France, Italy and the United Kingdom – are closer to the Australian left than they are to the American right. The Chinese have more liberal values than America’s ruling Republicans.”​

He then unpacks how most democratic leaders are wincing and looking away - and are not yet truly able to admit what has just happened. China is already leaping into the gap provided by America’s withdrawal from the global marketplace. But America’s arrogance will do what tariffs always do - drive down the quality of their goods while driving up the price - and reduce their ‘soft power’ around the world. The biggest cost? We will see what America truly is:-

"Thus America doesn’t want friends – friends are needy. The best lesser nations can hope for is to have their abeyance accepted. The emperor might pat them on the head.”​

He shows how America bribing Greenland and threatening Canada have fundamentally changed what America is. That we need to back out of AUKUS - yet as Australia goes into election mode - we’re not even discussing it. The world is still in denial. For now.
Trump is not an aberration

And as the NYT said:-

“President Trump does not seem to notice or care that if you betray people, or jerk them around, they will revile you. Over the last few weeks, the Europeans have gone from shock to bewilderment to revulsion. ...
This is not just a Trump problem; America’s whole reputation is shot. I don’t care if Abraham Lincoln himself walked into the White House in 2029, no foreign leader can responsibly trust a nation that is perpetually four years away from electing another authoritarian nihilist...​

NATO is over ... The West is (temporarily) over ...”
Opinion | It Isn’t Just Trump. America’s Whole Reputation Is Shot.​

It's not just America - but you guys are leading the way! It's spreading. We're not prepared for what we are unleashing on ourselves and our children.

I hope everyone has seen this by now? I keep linking to it.

 

[Malleeboy]

Australia has fought alongside the US in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, both Gulf Wars and Afghanistan. No other country has been as reliable in assisting the US.
We fought alongside UK, NZ to successfully defeat communist insurgency in Malay and also backed Malaysia against Indonesian expansionism in the Konfrontasi.
We also without US assistance military assisted East Timor and Solomon..
We have joined the US in doing freedom of navigation in the South China Sea.
We maintain a presence in Malaysia under FPDAs, an Australian is still in place to coordinate Malaysian/Singaporean defence of the peninsula and Malaccan straights, a crucial part of the worlds infrastructure.
During the cold war, Pine Gap was the location that satellite would have passed the US the earliest warning of a Soviet launch.
The moon landing was only live televised due to an Australian facility.
We are a crucial intelligence partner in five eyes, signal intelligence.
Whilst we haven't spent US levels on Defence, we have consistently spent more than vast majority of NATO. However we are not in NATO, we have never had a guarantee of US assistance, just a commitment to consult. Compare Australia to Canada ( a country with a larger GDP and population and we have maintained our military far better) Australia has 72 x F35, 24 x FA-18F, 12 x FA-18G, 8 x P8, 6 x E-7A EWACS, 7 x KC-30A Tankers, 8 x C17. Canada has currently 93 FA-18A/B (some of which are our handme downs) 2 x CC150 Tankers 4 x P3 Our navy is equally better than Canada's.

The only country that could invade Australia is the US, China still does not have the type of expeditionary force that could launch an invasion of a continent sized country. The logistics of effectively a trans-oceanic invasion is mind bogglingly difficult, especially of a middle power that has no land boundaries to stage equipment or fly ground based planes from. Yet alone that if China had to navigate fly/around South East Asian territories, as they likely would, the distances become even more insane. Furthermore even without the US, it would only take one of Japan, UK or India to decide they weren't happy with China controlling Australia and the balance of forces would be even more problematic.

As per any other country in our region, we have the most effective military in our region. Indonesia has a large arm, but it is mostly for internal control, not force projection, Number 2 is Singapore, with who we have had a 40 year old Defence agreement under the FPDAs, and maintain good relations.

Basically Australia is not getting invaded. New Zealand on the other hand...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUYbI64QHI

 

[eclipsenow]

Our Geographic isolation is an advantage.

But do we really need nuclear subs if we're just defensive?

I reckon cancelling AUKUS as a sign of extracting ourself from this 'loyal little brother' status might signal to some in US defence industries just what Trump has done. If we distance ourselves enough.... (this is probably just wishful thinking....) might it make Russia move any ICBM's targeted at our big cities?

The diesel subs are FINE for local defensive missions and a tiny fraction of the price. Your thoughts? You seem to have a few more military logistics up your sleeve than myself - and I've served! (But environmental stuff fills my brain these days. 'Civilisational survival tech' - whereas you seem to know a fair bit about 'national survival tech' if I can put defence in those terms.)

 

[Malleeboy]

Nuclear subs are the gold solution, the advantage with conventional subs is that we could have had more of them.
Nuclear subs allow further distance travelled, and the choke point to out north are at some distance, we can have subs that can stay on stations for months near the key choke points, we make invading us extremely difficult.

 

[eclipsenow]

Nuclear subs are the gold solution, the advantage with conventional subs is that we could have had more of them.
Nuclear subs allow further distance travelled, and the choke point to out north are at some distance, we can have subs that can stay on stations for months near the key choke points, we make invading us extremely difficult.

Sure - but the cost is enormous. I seem to remember that our original diesel designs from the French were originally nuclear anyway - and had to be redesigned around diesel? I wonder how many extra subs we could get if we just ordered a few offensive nuclear subs and spent the rest on defensive diesel subs.

Also - whether we could put those Adelaide shipyards back to work building the defensive diesel subs locally now everything geopolitical is a mess!? (We don't really have a nuclear industry so we'd still order them from the French that we should probably go back to with a big apology!)

 

[Malleeboy]

Probably UUVs are the future, basically build smart torpedo/mines that sit in station permanently and active when directed and attack shipping.