Women becoming pastors?

[LouisBooth]

I approach the Bible like a prospector would approach his claim.

No...you're just making excuses as to why you don't like certain parts of the bible in your 2nd paragraph. This is why I said delete it. God's truth doesn't change based on time period. If you think some of the bible is rubble, that is a whole different discussion.

 

[Disciple37]

I approach the Bible like a prospector would approach his claim. I am prepared to spend a lot of time and effort searching for the shining nuggets of wisdom and insight but I am also prepared to have to shift a lot of rubble in order to find them.

The Bible is rubble? Little confused on that statement. Surely, you believe the God that performed miracle after miracle, born of a virgin, that died on the cross, that arose three days later, that ascended to heaven to prepare a place for us can give you a book. Surely you believe God is capable of giving you a book. If you do not believe that ,what in the world are you founding your salvation on ... if the Bible is a lie, then you put your own salvation at doubt.

And before we go on and possibly get on which Bible debate, which Bible was virtually used to spread the gospel all throughout the world? That's typically going to be your KJV. So if God blessed the KJV to be a bearer of the good news, then you can trust God inspired the creation of the KJV of the Bible. The other versions are great for new christians to cross reference, but every mature christian should be using the KJV in my opinion. However, all the versions are the same in doctrine. Jesus Christ is Lord. You can only enter the kingdom through the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ has come in the flesh to redeem man. Faith in Christ is your salvation, not works. Christ is the Son of God.

 

[Strong in Him]

There are good, Spirit filled, prayerful, God loving, faithful people that get divorced, who believe that homosexuality isn't a sin, who believe, "X". That doesn't make it correct. Again this is circular reasoning.

No it isn't.
God has promised to lead and guide us. If women are testifying that he called them to be ordained - and male clergy and other men agree; if the woman becomes ordained and God allows it, even though he could have stopped it anywhere along the line;people have to at least consider why this is. That might lead to an answer that they don't like - namely that this IS from God and he hasn't forbidden it in Scripture, but if that is the result of honest, and prayerful, debate, then that's the answer.
Dismissing it as "circular reasoning" or the women as feminists seems to be a very good way of avoiding that honest conversation. Like I said; easier o claim women are at fault, rather than someone's interpretation of Scripture may be at fault.

and here I disagree with you on this issue.

So we'll agree to disagree.
But because some people might do dishonest/selfish things and say "God told me; it seemed right", doesn't mean everyone does.

Again, the justification you're using here at people, not scripture. Well where would I go, well my whole church believes this, well lots of people believe this. Again, circular reasoning.

1. Firstly it is slightly irritating when you only quote a small part of my post, or even only half a sentence. It feels like I'm being interrupted. But I'm sure it wasn't your intention to annoy, so that's ok.
2. I'm simply telling you how it is in practice. The Anglican,Methodist and URC churches, and maybe others, have spent years debating this issue; after prayer, debate and study of the Scriptures. The Anglican church brought the matter of women's ordination before their synod for many years. The motion, i.e that women could be ordained, was usually agreed in all 3 houses, but their rules state that a motion has to have a 2/3 majority in each house before it can be passed and become canon law. The church stated in 1973 that there was no theological reason why women should not be ordained - but the first ordinations were in 1994! I would imagine that the Methodists and URCs had similar debates - all with careful study of the Scriptures and prayer.
If I suddenly disagreed with women preachers, which church should I attend, when they all appear to have no problem with the issue?

A lot of churches believe that homosexuality isn't a sin (a totally different topic, lets not derail). You should justify it by scripture. I do not see it specifically mentioned, but you do see it mentioned for the against.

A number of people, in debates on this subject, raise the issue of homosexuality; I fail to see why.
Preaching the Gospel is something all Christians are told to do. Leading a church is a calling, but it is also a paid job; a role, which people are appointed to. It can be full time or part time, they usually get paid, and they may resign, retire or be sacked from it.
Homosexuality is a relationship between two men or two women. I don't know whether it is a chosen lifestyle or whether it can't be helped - after all, I can't help being, and didn't choose to be, heterosexual. If it can't be helped/is genetic then people can no more change their sexual preferences that they can change the colour of their eyes.

The two things are not even remotely similar.

 

[Philip_B]

Like every other of the wide range of issues that divides Protestants, the problems are two fold. The question of authority.

Authority is the matter that divides Roman Catholics from all other Christians.

Mark 10:42-45
So Jesus called them and said to them, ‘You know that among the Gentiles those whom they recognize as their rulers lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. But it is not so among you; but whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you must be slave of all. For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.’​

I think that in Acts 15 we see Leadership in the Church exercised by James in the manner that is in line with the synoptic passage quoted here. I think that is the style of leadership being exercised at Nicaea 321, Constantinople 381, Ephesus 435. Chalcedon 451 with Leo's Tombe perhaps see's a bit of a push from the Roman Pontif.

I do not want to take the discussion off topic, but the answer needs to be a better response than whatever Papa says!

 

[LouisBooth]

No it isn't.

That's your claim. They are doing God's work (which I can only assume you mean "good things") and thus by your circular reasoning they are right in their claims.

God allows it, even though he could have stopped it anywhere along the line

you have yet to prove he approves of it. God allows Satan to do his "thing" and "could have stopped it anywhere along the line". that doesn't make what Satan does right now does it.

doesn't mean everyone does.

and how do you sort them out? Scripture..not "they are good people" or "their works are good works." This is why I say you can't use your evidence as you've presented it.

I'm simply telling you how it is in practice.

1. I quote sections because no one wants to see walls of text. I quote what I'm replying to. I find it annoying when people quote the whole thread and only address part of it. 2. I could care less what groups of people in a committee vote on. Until they show it biblically, I'll disagree. If there is that much biblical evidence, post it! I have yet to see you use a verse.

A number of people, in debates on this subject, raise the issue of homosexuality

because it's logically constant. You advocate that the reason women are okay in leadership is because it's a sign of the times. The same is said for quite a few things. You can take out women in your posts and insert "homosexual in leadership" and it matches your reasoning.

 

[Mountainmike]

Now consider all the scriptures I mention , and more like them, that indisputably vest authority in the one visible church, and the fact of succession determining the canon you call the bible.

The pope has rarely ever used his power to settle doctrinal matters, so you pose a red herring,

But the reason Protestants cannot agree on any matter, including female clergy , and have polarised views on all doctrine is the self refuting doctrine of sola scriptura, and amnesia of early church.

Authority is the matter that divides Roman Catholics from all other Christians.

Mark 10:42-45
So Jesus called them and said to them, ‘You know that among the Gentiles those whom they recognize as their rulers lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. But it is not so among you; but whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you must be slave of all. For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.’​

I think that in Acts 15 we see Leadership in the Church exercised by James in the manner that is in line with the synoptic passage quoted here. I think that is the style of leadership being exercised at Nicaea 321, Constantinople 381, Ephesus 435. Chalcedon 451 with Leo's Tombe perhaps see's a bit of a push from the Roman Pontif.

I do not want to take the discussion off topic, but the answer needs to be a better response than whatever Papa says!

 

[LouisBooth]

have polarised views on all doctrine is the self refuting doctrine of sola scriptura

Smart guy once said, in essentials, unity, in nonessentials liberty, in all things Charity.
I'd go so far as to say in nonessentials diversity and in all things Love.

 

[Strong in Him]

That's your claim. They are doing God's work (which I can only assume you mean "good things") and thus by your circular reasoning they are right in their claims.

I believe they are right in their claims because I know them to be sincere, trustworthy, Christian women who do not say "God called me" when what they really mean is, "I want this and I'm trying to find a way of persuading men so that they're ok with it." I also trust in the Good Shepherd who guides his sheep as they hear and respond to his voice.

you have yet to prove he approves of it. God allows Satan to do his "thing" and "could have stopped it anywhere along the line". that doesn't make what Satan does right now does it.

I don't have to prove it.
These women know God and know what he has said to them. The church believes them when they say they have a call, and allows them to follow it. Maybe some members of the church have also heard God tell them that ..... is called to that role.
So God and the church are allowing these women to preach the Gospel. Does Satan want that too? Is this part of his plan? I believe not; that he has no purpose in people preaching about the cross. If he does, then he is allowing Christians to preach the Gospel of the Lord, the kingdom, the cross and the time when he, Satan, will be destroyed. It means that he (Satan) has raised up people to do God's work. I don't believe that a) he wants that, or for unbelievers to know how they can be saved from hell, or b) that he is stupid enough to prompt people to do God's work and make sure that only God gets the glory.

Women are serving God as Ministers/Pastors today; that is a fact. Scripture doesn't say, "God has commanded that no woman become a Pastor". That IS a fact - those exact words do not appear - though I realise that some people sincerely believe that some verses do actually mean just that. People who agree with women Ministers will be/stay in churches which allow them. People who don't, and don't believe these woman are called by God, will go to find a church which also believes as they do. This is a fact too.
I don't need to prove that it was God who called these women into ordained Ministry. If it was, then there's no problem; if it wasn't, then it's up to God to decide whether to reward them for preaching the Gospel and obeying his commands or punish them for "sinning" and doing so when they were the wrong gender.

That's your claim. They are doing God's work (which I can only assume you mean "

and how do you sort them out? Scripture..

To a point, except that there are different interpretations of Scripture.
This isn't a matter relating to the Gospel or salvation. It is quite important - especially to women who are called to do this - but at the end of the day, Christians will go to a church which practices whatever they believe on this matter. All churches believe the same Gospel and do their best to preach/take it to a lost world - whether they allow women to play an active part in that, or not.
All Christians who love the Lord are, I believe, following him, doing his will and loving and serving him. If not, it's for God to correct and lead them onto the right path - it's his work, his church, his kingdom, his glory, and he is the one who has saved us, called us and is, by his Spirit, changing us into Jesus' image and likeness, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

because it's logically constant. You advocate that the reason women are okay in leadership is because it's a sign of the times.

I didn't say anything about it being a sign of the times. I have said that God raised up Deborah, Huldah, Isaiah's wife, Priscilla, Phoebe, Philip's daughters and others to be leaders, teachers, prophetesses and so on. I have said that Jesus chose and allowed women to do many things, that Catherine of Siena advised the pope in the 11th century, Gladys Aylward founded a church in China and that women have been preaching the Gospel for many years.
It's true that I believe that all these things are signs that this is how God is at work in his world today; that he raises up, chooses and calls the people he wishes and puts them in the positions he wishes. But women preaching the gospel and being ordained is not a "current fad".

 

[Goodbook]

In reply to OP there was a book I read written by a female pastor maybe you should check it out and be the judge whether shes going against scriputre or not its called Pastrix by Nadia Bolz-Weber.

I havent really met any female pastors myself only those co pastoring with their husbands pastors do tend to be male in most churches.

 

[tulipbee]

 

[LouisBooth]

I also trust in the Good Shepherd who guides his sheep as they hear and respond to his voice.

and I'd say trust in God and not in men or women. You're still using circular reasoning here. You need to back it up BIBILCIALLY.

I don't have to prove it.

Yes, you do. 1Pe 3:15. Your beliefs should always be biblically backed.

Does Satan want that too? Is this part of his plan? I believe not;

Your belief is wrong. The warnings to the churches in revelation show that churches can be wrong. Satan knows he is doomed, he is trying to take people with him and keep rebelling against God. If a more evil purpose can be done by letting a good act happen, he will do it. Again, we have gone over this already.

Christians will go to a church which practices whatever they believe on this matter.

So we should allow homosexuality or fornication because Christ will still use these people for great things? No, that is not the way of a Christian. Romans refutes your thought here quite quickly.

I have said that God raised up Deborah, Huldah, Isaiah's wife, Priscilla, Phoebe, Philip's daughters and others to be leaders, teachers, prophetesses and so on

These have been covered in this thread already. Biblical examples are the ONLY BIBILICAL backing I've seen yet and are refuted by verses in the New Testament by a direct talk about this issue. Christ's word says that creation will preach his word, does that mean they are authority? No. The same can be said for divorce, it's allowed by not right by God's standard.

Again, still no biblical backing I've seen from you.

Catherine of Siena advised the pope in the 11th century, Gladys Aylward founded a church in China and that women have been preaching the Gospel for many years.

Again with the same examples. So and So did "good" things, thus its right. I've already asked for biblical evidence, not examples in history. Under this logic you can say, well Paul murdered Christians and came to God, so murdering Christians is the way to go because you'll be directly talked to by God.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

A church near me has a woman pastor senior pastor. My take on this that a woman should not be the senior pastor of a church. In which the Bible speaks highly against it.
What is your take on this?

God's order of things. Women are subjected to men.

 

[JackRT]

God's order of things. Women are subjected to men.

The subjugation of women is entirely a cultural imposition. Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.

 

[LouisBooth]

First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy

This is where you are wrong JackTR. You view that being a leader puts you in a position of "superiority" or "power" in the Christian religion. It is actually the opposite as shown by Christ himself.

So, as I said, stick to biblical arguments, not pride based ones. You'll have an much better time proving your point

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

The subjugation of women is entirely a cultural imposition. Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.

In the Bible God never chose women for anything important in His work except for a very very few cases. For God, they were always in the shadow of men. God Himself created men and women, and said, the woman is the helper. That's the way in all cultures and societies. Or maybe in almost all of them.

 

[Philip_B]

In the Bible God never chose women for anything important in His work except for a very very few cases. For God, they were always in the shadow of men. God Himself created men and women, and said, the woman is the helper. That's the way in all cultures and societies. Or maybe in almost all of them.

Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be to me according to your word.​

 

[JackRT]

Times change and society evolves. The patriarchal and sometimes misogynistic culture of biblical times applies less and less today. It is far past time that Christianity accepted women as equal partners in creation. I am also realistic enough to recognize that although the arc of history is bending in that direction, it will take generations more before society fully adapts.

 

[Philip_B]

Let us make man in our own image and after our Likeness.
So God created man.
Male and Female, he created them​

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Let us make man in our own image and after our Likeness.
So God created man.
Male and Female, he created them​

"The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him".

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Times change and society evolves. The patriarchal and sometimes misogynistic culture of biblical times applies less and less today. It is far past time that Christianity accepted women as equal partners in creation. I am also realistic enough to recognize that although the arc of history is bending in that direction, it will take generations more before society fully adapts.

Does it mean women or God evolve? if God's dealings with humans and His commanments remained stable for millenia in this regard, but now need updating.

Jesus said, don't rush to take a spot of authority because the judgment us harsher. Especially if you're not really suitable.