Woman who preaches in Church

[Rose_bud]

Thanks, but in light of 1 Tim 2:12-14, I need Biblical evidence.

Hey Clare,

Thanks for the reply. I'm facing a conflicting situation, as Proverbs 26:4-5 comes to mind. I've attempted to address your questions by providing insight and directing you to relevant sources (verse 5). Since that approach hasnt brought clarity, I'm left with the guidance of verse 4.

Again, Thank you for your time.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

1) I note the avoidance of the clear principle (1 Tim 2:13-14) on which the prohibition is based.
2) How many women pastors do we see in the history of the first 1800+ years of the church?

I notice your avoidance of what I posted earlier regarding the actual Greek terms in which the New Testament was written (which, by the way, would be the ACTUAL Word of God rather than the translated and transliterated attempts into English).

Simply reading the Bible not only by itself, isolated from the historical and cultural contexts in which it was written, but also ignoring the fact that it wasn't written in English and that translations themselves are known to be mired down by interpretations in the process of translation is also a form of avoidance.

And frankly, I don't think there's any principle in the Bible that says all of us can just ignore contexts, culture and language with a feigned spiritual whimsy that some Christians equate with the "working out of the Holy Spirit." ........... yeah, I don't think the Holy Spirit is going to let us just ignore the historical facts and contexts.

 

[RamiC]

1) I note the avoidance of the clear principle (1 Tim 12:13-14) on which the prohibition is based.

"12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control." 1 Tim 2 13-14 NKJV​

You mean this verse? Which means I cannot be saved, because I am a childless woman, it is perfectly clear about this matter. Unless it is true that when we quote the Bible we should consider the context, and intended application, or we may end up drawing wrong conclusions about what it means.

Please note everyone, I am not in a frantic state about my eternal welfare because I am not a mother, I am ever grateful to the Lord for my faith.

 

[Clare73]

What do you need Biblical evidence of?
A female leader? Deborah; Judges 4:4-5
A man being told, by God, to listen to his wife? Abraham; Genesis 21:12.
A woman prophesying? Miriam, Exodus 15:20; Deborah, Judges 4:6-10; Huldah, 2 Kings 22:15-20; Isaiah's wife. Isaiah 8:3
That women were allowed to prophesy? 1 Corinthians 11:5.
A woman telling people about Jesus? John 4:28-29; John 20: 18.
A woman teaching about Jesus? Acts 18:26.
Women helping Paul in the work of the Gospel? Romans 16:1-12.

It's not complicated. . .

None of which are NT demonstration of females in the role of pastor (which office has teaching authority over men) contrary to Paul's prohibition of such in 1 Ti 2:12-14.

See following post, #165.

 

[Clare73]

"12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control." 1 Tim NKJV - 12-13​

You mean this verse?

The Greek word for "saved" here is sozo, and is used in at least eight different ways in the NT,
from material and temporal deliverance from danger, suffering, etc., e.g., Mt 8:25, Mk 13:20, Lk 23;25, Jn 12:27, as well as 1 Tim 2:15,
to the individual believer who, though losing his reward at the Judgment-Seat of Christ hereafter, will not lose his salvation (1 Co 3:15, 5:5).

Which means I cannot be saved, because I am a childless woman, it is perfectly clear about this matter.

Not in light of its context. . .Ge 3:16.

Since sozo here refers to earthly danger and suffering, it would refer to the curse on womanhood of Ge 3:16 (denying women authority on that basis). Though cursed because she is first in transgression (1 Tim 2:14), she shall be saved by the promised seed who shall come from woman, and she shall make up for the transgression by bearing children.

 

[Strong in Him]

It's not complicated. . .

None of which are NT demonstration of females in the role of pastor (which office has teaching authority over men) contrary to Paul's prohibition of such in 1 Ti 2:12-14.

That's the thing - Paul does not prohibit that in 1 Tim 2:12-14.
There is no mention of the word "pastor". You seem to think that "Pastoral teaching" is teaching with authority - all lay preachers and Ministers have God's authority, because he called us/them, plus the authority of the church who have been instrumental in our/their training.
If someone were to stand up in a church and say "I am taking over this sermon" that would be preaching without authority.
You don't seem to accept this.

 

[RamiC]

The Greek word for "saved" here is sozo, and is used in at least eight different ways in the NT,
from material and temporal deliverance from danger, suffering, etc., e.g., Mt 8:25, Mk 13:20, Lk 23;25, Jn 12:27, as well as 1 Tim 2:15,
to the individual believer who, though losing his reward at the Judgment-Seat of Christ hereafter, will not lose his salvation (1 Co 3:15, 5:5).

Not in light of its context. . .Ge 3:16.

Since sozo here refers to earthly danger and suffering, it would refer to the curse on womanhood of Ge 3:16 (denying women authority on that basis). Though cursed because she is first in transgression (1 Tim 2:14), she shall be saved by the promised seed who shall come from woman, and she shall make up for the transgression by bearing children.

But then I haven't made up for Eve's transgression.

Also, your explanation reads a bit like if a woman does have children, then she is free to teach men, because she has made up for the curse on Eve.

 

[Postvieww]

https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/c21a6153/files/uploaded/The_Woman_Question.pdf I recommend anyone who is concerned with the women question discussion here to read this short book. Scripture based with common sense.

 

[Clare73]

That's the thing - Paul does not prohibit that in 1 Tim 2:12-14.
There is no mention of the word "pastor". You seem to think that "Pastoral teaching" is teaching with authority -

You do no seem to realize that in the times of the apostles, it did.

 

[Clare73]

But then I haven't made up for Eve's transgression.

Also, your explanation reads a bit like if a woman does have children, then she is free to teach men, because she has made up for the curse on Eve.

I present both of the above as demonstration of the reason for Paul's prohibition in 1 Tim 2:12-14.

 

[Strong in Him]

You do no seem to realize that in the times of the apostles, it did.

Paul doesn't say that in his personal letter to Timothy.

 

[RamiC]

I present both of the above as demonstration of the reason for Paul's prohibition in 1 Tim 2:12-14.

No post I make proves anything about women in general.

 

[Clare73]

Paul doesn't say that in his personal letter to Timothy.

If your "exegesis" is accurate, you would know that.

 

[Agra man]

God will use who he chooses

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

God doesn't kill Christians after they sin.

He killed Ananias and Sapphira immediately after they sinned. They should serve as a lesson for the Church not to gloss over holiness of God.

Responding to God's call to preaching or ordination is not a sin; failure to respond and obey God, would be.

God will never call you to do something that would be contrary what He commands in the Scripture. Just because one feels God calls them to do something, does not mean God really does. There are plenty of examples in the Bible when someone feels like God calls them to do something, and the opposite is the truth.

Is it rebellion to do what God has called you to do? Why did God appoint Deborah as judge over all Israel?

It is true that Deborah was chosen by God for special service to Him and that she stand as model of faith, courage, and, yes, leadership. However, the authority of women in the Old Testament is not relevant to the issue of pastors in the church. The New Testament Epistles present a new paradigm for God’s people—the church, the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves an authority structure unique to the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity.

The fact that something happened, does not mean it's normative for the Church. For example God allowing Israel men to have multiple wives, are you now going to argue that it's ok for Christian men to have multiple wives?
Isaiah chapter 3 for example, one of the signs that a culture is under judgement, is that women are in leadership.

Btw in Isaiah chapter 3 for example one of the signs that a culture is under judgment is that women are in leadership in their nations. So Deborah was actually assigned that things were very bad in Israel.

When was that?

I believe it was Elijah, for a period of time before Elisha was a prophet.

Some churches tell God that he cannot do something - i.e call women to preach in HIS church. Is that not disobedience?
Some churches tell women they cannot even test the calling that they have received from God, nor use the gifts that he has given them. Are they loving as Jesus loved them? Is that not disobedience?

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; end of discussion.

This is the problem with many Christians today. They do what they feel to do rather than what Scripture commands. Then we have such things as female pastors in church, gay marriages in church, false gospel in church and so on.

This is something that plagues the Church throughout the history. Christian killing Jews because they felt that's what God commanded. Christians siding with Hitler. Christians murdering. Christians marrying non Christians because they felt God called them to do that so through the marriage the unbeliever will surely come to Christ etc. There are so many evil things Christians done to others because they felt God called them to do it, it will make you question Christianity.

 

[Paidiske]

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; end of discussion.

Except that it's very clear elsewhere in his letters that he did permit women to teach and have authority, even over men.

So, if we are honest about that fact, it leaves us with the inescapable conclusion that this statement cannot be absolute, and therefore, there is a discussion to be had about how it applies.

There are so many evil things Christians done to others because they felt God called them to do it, it will make you question Christianity.

And yet there is nothing evil in authentic ministry, whether men or women do it. The good news does not lose its goodness because a woman proclaims it.

If we want to talk about the evil things Christians do to others, then let's talk about spiritual abuse, and the distortion of power and authority in our churches, and the way ministry is too often twisted to serve the minister rather than the congregation. But let's not pretend there's anything especially gendered about that.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Except that it's very clear elsewhere in his letters that he did permit women to teach and have authority, even over men.

Where?
Preaching and spreading gospel are two different things.

So, if we are honest about that fact, it leaves us with the inescapable conclusion that this statement cannot be absolute, and therefore, there is a discussion to be had about how it applies.

There is only a discussion because you do not want to obey what the Bible says you to do.

 

[Paidiske]

Where?
Preaching and spreading gospel are two different things.

As I've already mentioned; Paul commended Phoebe, a deacon, and Junia, an apostle. He worked with Priscilla, who taught, and commended women like Lydia, who presided over worship gatherings in their homes. He mentions many women as his co-labourers, the same term he used for men in various ministry roles. (Eg: see here: Partnering Together: Paul's Female Coworkers - Marg Mowczko ).

There is only a discussion because you do not want to obey what the Bible says you to do.

Not at all. And I suggest you not turn arguing the point into personal attack, as that is likely to fall foul of CF's flaming rules.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Paul commended Phoebe, a deacon

There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Phoebe was a pastor or a teacher of men in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not for deacons.

He worked with Priscilla

Did Priscilla and her husband teach the gospel of Jesus Christ to Apollos? Yes, in their home they “explained to him the way of God more adequately”. Does the Bible ever say that Priscilla pastored a church or taught publicly or became the spiritual leader of a congregation of saints? No. As far as we know, Priscilla was not involved in ministry activity

and Junia, an apostle. He worked with Priscilla, who taught, and commended women like Lydia, who presided over worship gatherings in their homes. He mentions many women as his co-labourers, the same term he used for men in various ministry roles.

Did any of these women pastored a church or taught publicly or became the spiritual leader of a congregation of saints? No.

The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11–14 makes the reason why women cannot be pastors perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for,” giving the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11–12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived” (verses 13–14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. The order of creation has universal application in the family Ephesians 5:22–33 and in the church.

The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men 1 Timothy 2:14. This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men.

Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying 1 Corinthians 11:5, only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 12. Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22–23, and to proclaim the gospel to the lost Matthew 28:18–20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15.

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This does not imply men are better teachers or that women are inferior or less intelligent. It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are also to set an example in their lives, but in a different way 1 Peter 3:1-6. Women are encouraged to teach other women Titus 2:3–5.. The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This bars women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means; rather, it gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s design.

And I suggest you not turn arguing the point into personal attack, as that is likely to fall foul of CF's flaming rules.

This was not meant as a personal attack. Rather than telling you we need to obey what the Scripture tells us to do and not do to. Female pastors are something we must stay away from.

 

[Paidiske]

There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Phoebe was a pastor or a teacher of men in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not for deacons.

And yet we know that she carried Paul's letter to the Romans, and that the typical practice of the time was for the messenger to read and explain the contents of such a letter. She was very likely the first teacher of the letter to the Romans.
And we know that deacons did teach, and undertake other roles in worship. As indeed they still do today.

Did Priscilla and her husband teach the gospel of Jesus Christ to Apollos? Yes, in their home they “explained to him the way of God more adequately”. Does the Bible ever say that Priscilla pastored a church or taught publicly or became the spiritual leader of a congregation of saints? No. As far as we know, Priscilla was not involved in ministry activity

Paul describes her as one who "works with me in Christ Jesus." (Romans 16:3). The church met in their home, which meant they would have presided over its worship, and Priscilla is usually listed first, as the more important (very unusual for wives in her culture).

It is dismissing the evidence in Paul's letters to say that she was not involved in ministry activity.

Did any of these women pastored a church or taught publicly or became the spiritual leader of a congregation of saints? No.

You assume they did not, but the evidence is that they likely did. Especially those who had churches meeting in their homes.

Female pastors are something we must stay away from.

I'll just get back to working on this week's sermon. On Luke 3:15-22, if you're curious.