Wicked Lose your salvation Documentary on YouTube promoting a works based salvation

[bbbbbbb]

I believe the devil and his messengers are universally damned to the LoF forever. You see the majority of believers are universalist and don't even recognize it because it's just a term. Unitarian? Never. Fundamental, yes. Trinity yes. Nicene creed, yes.

Does that mean universalism to you? It's a big world of segmented beliefs, so I tend to filter through them. Even Roman catholicism has a small segment of believers who are allowed to believe all people might end up in purgatory for awhile, and even that could be considered universalism. Even orthodox universalism. Heterodox, but acceptable, nevertheless

Not that I'm in that camp, but close enough

Historically, Universalists were not at all Unitarian. Their merger was primarily a result of dramatically falling membership in both denominations. Historic Univeralists believed in the Five Fundamentals of the faith, as well as the trinity and the Nicene creed. I perceived that your beliefs appear to align with historic Universalism. Am I correct in thinking this?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Historically, Universalists were not at all Unitarian. Their merger was primarily a result of dramatically falling membership in both denominations. Historic Univeralists believed in the Five Fundamentals of the faith, as well as the trinity and the Nicene creed. I perceived that your beliefs appear to align with historic Universalism. Am I correct in thinking this?

I depart from a lot of "sects" of universalism when they fall into promoting Satan's and devil's salvation or denying God's Word of the O.T. (which a lot of sects do also). Or if they don't hold to the Nicene creed, which I believe is solid and well thought out ground. So yeah, I believe fundamentals are important, but there are limits there too. Apostolic succession, Mary as co savior, etc etc

Let's face it. Universalists are the closest to the core belief, which is to love our neighbors as ourselves. But that also logically entails being relentlessly attacked, particularly in groups. Years past it was charismatics.

Things change

 

[bbbbbbb]

I depart from a lot of "sects" of universalism when they fall into promoting Satan's and devil's salvation or denying God's Word of the O.T. (which a lot of sects do also). Or if they don't hold to the Nicene creed, which I believe is solid and well thought out ground. So yeah, I believe fundamentals are important, but there are limits there too. Apostolic succession, Mary as co savior, etc etc

Let's face it. Universalists are the closest to the core belief, which is to love our neighbors as ourselves. But that also logically entails being relentlessly attacked, particularly in groups. Years past it was charismatics.

Things change

When I was young attacks from the liberal end came down on Fundamentalists in general, Baptists in particular, and Pentecostals of all types. In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries the Unitarians stirred up a lot of wrath as they divided the Congregational churches. Secondarily, the Universalists came in for their share of disdain. It seems to be human nature to detest folks who are not just like us.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

It seems to be human nature to detest folks who are not just like us.

It can be very complicated. In Christianity we are supposed to see we have an internal enemy, the tempter, our adversary. It's pretty easy to look at others and say "they're deceived."

Fact is, we all are to some degree. And that understanding brings the complicated issues to home

 

[bbbbbbb]

I agree. I have many blind spots of which I am quite oblivious, yet, to others, are very obvious.

 

[Jan001]

So, I can imagine whatever I wish, but as long as I don't physically engage in a sin, I am okey-dokey with God, if I understand you correctly.

Absolutely not!

A person sins by evil thoughts, evil words, and evil deeds.

My point is that there are degrees of sin. A person who thinks about committing adultery is not sinning as gravely as the person committing the act of adultery. Both unrepentant sins will make you worthy of hell, but in hell, the punishment for the sin of thinking about adultery will be lesser than the punishment for the sin of committing the adultery. However, there is unending punishment in hell for each unrepentant mortal/grave sin on our souls at the time of our death. 1 John 5:17, Matthew 18:6, Luke 11:24-26

Thinking about adultery leads to adultery. Both are gravely sinful and need to be confessed and repented.

As soon as a person realizes he is being tempted to disobey God's commandments, he needs to immediately resist these thoughts by thinking about something godly. James 4:6-8, Philippians 4:8

 

[bbbbbbb]

Absolutely not!

A person sins by evil thoughts, evil words, and evil deeds.

My point is that there are degrees of sin. A person who thinks about committing adultery is not sinning as gravely as the person committing the act of adultery. Both unrepentant sins will make you worthy of hell, but in hell, the punishment for the sin of thinking about adultery will be lesser than the punishment for the sin of committing the adultery. However, there is unending punishment in hell for each unrepentant mortal/grave sin on our souls at the time of our death. 1 John 5:17, Matthew 18:6, Luke 11:24-26

Thinking about adultery leads to adultery. Both are gravely sinful and need to be confessed and repented.

As soon as a person realizes he is being tempted to disobey God's commandments, he needs to immediately resist these thoughts by thinking about something godly. James 4:6-8, Philippians 4:8

So, do mental adulterers get sent to somewhere in the Lake of Fire which is cooler than the place that physical adulterers get sent to?

 

[Jan001]

There is no works based salvation it does not exist we are saved by the sacrifice Jesus made not works.Any christian church that teaches works is not a christian church.Sorry I won't call the sacraments in the Catholic Church a doctrine of works have you not noticed they have been creeping back into the protestant church.Faith alone is gone you have baptism sacred marriage and even forms of communion now in some of them the very thing they rejected.When you get rid of them you can call them works again.
If you want a greater reward in heaven then you will seek to do Gods will its the promise made by Jesus. God only rewards faith in this life not works its clear in the bible I don't see how you can be confused and believe works base salvation your ignoring the sacrifice Jesus made.
You cannot earn salvation buy salvation or raise yourself up on the last day no matter what you do you will have to rely on the grace of our Lord like everyone else.

The so-called doctrine of "Salvation by faith alone" is not in the Bible. It is true that there would be no salvation without Jesus Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. This sacrifice was needed to make reparation for Adam's sin which caused the loss of eternal life for him, Eve, and all his descendants including us. Romans 5:12 No person could possibly enter into heaven to be with God until after Jesus died on the cross. John 3:13

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

God first saves us through the faith given to us by the Father and the grace given to us through the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ.

However, to be worthy of entering into eternal life at the end of our earthly life, we must do the good works that the Father has prepared for us to do.

If we do not do these good works that the Father had planned for us to do, we will be placed with the goats who will go into everlasting fire. Matthew 7:21, Matthew 12:50, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 6:46.

James 2:24-26 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

 

[Jan001]

So, do mental adulterers get sent to somewhere in the Lake of Fire which is cooler than the place that physical adulterers get sent to?

Why do you think the rich man in hell wanted Abraham to warn the rich man's brothers? It was not because he loved his brothers. There is no love possible in hell. The rich man knew that if by his influence while he lived on earth, he helped to cause his brothers' eventual damnation, his own sufferings in hell would increase as each brother arrived in hell.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The so-called doctrine of "Salvation by faith alone" is not in the Bible. It is true that there would be no salvation without Jesus Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. This sacrifice was needed to make reparation for Adam's sin which caused the loss of eternal life for him, Eve, and all his descendants including us. Romans 5:12 No person could possibly enter into heaven to be with God until after Jesus died on the cross. John 3:13

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

God first saves us through the faith given to us by the Father and the grace given to us through the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ.

However, to be worthy of entering into eternal life at the end of our earthly life, we must do the good works that the Father has prepared for us to do.

If we do not do these good works that the Father had planned for us to do, we will be placed with the goats who will go into everlasting fire. Matthew 7:21, Matthew 12:50, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 6:46.

James 2:24-26 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

Are you worthy?

 

[Guojing]

If we do not do these good works that the Father had planned for us to do, we will be placed with the goats who will go into everlasting fire. Matthew 7:21, Matthew 12:50, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 6:46.

So any believer who is in prison, hungry, and no clothes, you think we must visit ALL of them, feed them, clothe them, otherwise we might not be saved?

Are you doing that regularly in the first place?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

As soon as a person realizes he is being tempted to disobey God's commandments, he needs to immediately resist these thoughts by thinking about something godly. James 4:6-8, Philippians 4:8

Resistance is one thing.

When we think that means eradication, then sin has merely turned in another page of internal deceptions upon us.

Cagey thing, that sin that indwells us all

Jer. 17:1
The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars;

And the avenue of thinking we're better sinners was effectively cut off by Paul: Romans 3:9

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

So any believer who is in prison, hungry, and no clothes, you think we must visit ALL of them, feed them, clothe them, otherwise we might not be saved?

Are you doing that regularly in the first place?

Funny, that.

Exactly none of us does that at all times in all ways. Zero of us.

Which means what? Yes, that we are all in fact part goat. However the same every last one of us, when we read the parable of the sheep and goats, will always and only think of ourselves as the sheep, and never the goat

To crack the parable seems simple to me now, but for literally decades I read as the above.

Now I know that we all have sin, and sin is of the devil. There, the goat is pinpointed to be upon us all in its many forms and iterations

It's never just "me" walking in this present pair of shoes. Nor is it anyone else

We all have a tag along called the tempter, our adversary. Who does quite well at hiding his presence, lest we realize we're being "gamed," hunted even.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Funny, that.

Exactly none of us does that at all times in all ways. Zero of us.

Which means what? Yes, that we are all in fact part goat. However the same every last one of us, when we read the parable of the sheep and goats, will always and only think of ourselves as the sheep, and never the goat

To crack the parable seems simple to me now, but for literally decades I read as the above.

Now I know that we all have sin, and sin is of the devil. There, the goat is pinpointed to be upon us all in its many forms and iterations

It's never just "me" walking in this present pair of shoes. Nor is it anyone else

We all have a tag along called the tempter, our adversary. Who does quite well at hiding his presence, lest we realize we're being "gamed," hunted even.

Nicely put. I am always quite amazed to discover the blind spots in my life where Satan has free rein to attack me at will. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

 

[Guojing]

Funny, that.

Exactly none of us does that at all times in all ways. Zero of us.

Which means what? Yes, that we are all in fact part goat. However the same every last one of us, when we read the parable of the sheep and goats, will always and only think of ourselves as the sheep, and never the goat

To crack the parable seems simple to me now, but for literally decades I read as the above.

Now I know that we all have sin, and sin is of the devil. There, the goat is pinpointed to be upon us all in its many forms and iterations

It's never just "me" walking in this present pair of shoes. Nor is it anyone else

We all have a tag along called the tempter, our adversary. Who does quite well at hiding his presence, lest we realize we're being "gamed," hunted even.

I don't regard that passage as a parable.

During the Tribulation, if gentiles want to be included in the kingdom, they have to bless Israel to be saved, many of the latter will be persecuted by the antichrist then.

That is what that passage meant, it is literal.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I don't regard that passage as a parable.

During the Tribulation, if gentiles want to be included in the kingdom, they have to bless Israel to be saved, many of the latter will be persecuted by the antichrist then.

That is what that passage meant, it is literal.

Did I say parables aren't literal? The devil and his messengers are in that parable and they are quite real, even if unseen

 

[Cockcrow]

they turn Romans 11 on its head, they destroy it. wicked

 

[BNR32FAN]

they turn Romans 11 on its head, they destroy it. wicked

Then by all means please demonstrate the proper interpretation of Romans 11:17-23. Simply claiming that someone has an incorrect interpretation of a passage without demonstrating either how they interpreted it incorrectly or how it should be interpreted isn’t helpful at all and doesn’t prove anything. Make an actual argument that amounts to something more than simply replying nuh uh.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Then by all means please demonstrate the proper interpretation of Romans 11:17-23. Simply claiming that someone has an incorrect interpretation of a passage without demonstrating either how they interpreted it incorrectly or how it should be interpreted isn’t helpful at all and doesn’t prove anything. Make an actual argument that amounts to something more than simply replying nuh uh.

That was precisely my thoughts when I read his post.

 

[Cockcrow]

Then by all means please demonstrate the proper interpretation of Romans 11:17-23. Simply claiming that someone has an incorrect interpretation of a passage without demonstrating either how they interpreted it incorrectly or how it should be interpreted isn’t helpful at all and doesn’t prove anything. Make an actual argument that amounts to something more than simply replying nuh uh.

Paul is talking about Israel as a nation, not individual salvation. The olive tree represents the spiritual blessings of God, and the branches represent nations or groups of people (Jews and Gentiles), not individual believers losing salvation.
Romans 11:17-18 "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee."

• Some Jewish people (as a group) were broken off due to unbelief, not loss of salvation.
• Gentiles were grafted in, meaning they now partake in God’s spiritual blessings.
• This is about God turning from Israel as a nation and working with the Gentiles, not individuals losing salvation.

Romans 11:19-20 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"

• The branches (Israel as a nation) were removed due to unbelief. This does not mean saved people lost salvation, but that God’s focus shifted to the Gentiles.
• The warning is against pride, not loss of salvation.

Romans 11:21-22 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

• Again, this is talking about nations, not individuals.
• If the Gentiles (as a whole) turn from God, He can shift His work again.
• This is about God’s dealings with groups of people, not individual salvation.

Romans 11:23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

• If Israel as a nation believes again, God will restore them.
• This has nothing to do with an individual losing and regaining salvation but with God's dealings with nations.

So to conclude:

• Individual salvation is eternal (John 10:28, Romans 8:38-39).
• The warning is against national arrogance, not personal apostasy.
• Unbelief leads to being cut off from God's blessings, not losing salvation.

This passage actually proves eternal security, because it confirms that God is dealing with nations, not individuals, and that once you are saved, you are eternally secure in Christ. Romans 11 is about nations being used by God, not individuals losing salvation.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”