Why must you believe God exists in order to hear Him? Doesn't that strongly imply this 'hearing God' is merely self-persuasion?

[AetheriusLamia]

We can't listen to God unless we agree with some very basic beliefs about him. First, we must believe that God exists. Second, we must believe that God is knowable to human beings. And third, we must believe that God wants humans to know him.

Pacwa, M (2011). How to Listen When God is Speaking. Frederick, MD: The Word Among Us Press. p. 13.

I don't need to believe that any physical thing exists before I am able to hear it. How much more should God be able to make himself heard than something lacking omnipotence like a tree falling or an insect buzzing! This point is even demonstrated Biblically as, for example, Moses is attracted to the Burning Bush and then spoke with God. There is no indication from the text that Moses had to first believe in the god of Abraham to have his attention drawn or engage in conversation.

Please explain how Pacwa is being reasonable here, i.e. how this isn't evidence what's actually going on is self-persuasion, implicitly "assuming your conclusion" -- namely, "Tell yourself that ideas that come to mind that agree with the Bible are actually God speaking to you."

 

[HARK!]

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[Margaret3110]

I don’t agree with that quote, personally. It doesn’t fit my experience of conversion. God reached out to me and I listened even though I hadn’t believed in him before. How would any nonbeliever come to faith if this quote were true? Maybe there’s a context that I’m missing.

 

[DragonFox91]

No, you couldn't persuade yourself if you tried.

God makes the first move.

 

[RileyG]

No, you couldn't persuade yourself if you tried.

God makes the first move.

Amen!

 

[AetheriusLamia]

God reached out to me and I listened even though I hadn’t believed in him before.

Please share this story in detail. What does 'reached out to me' and 'I listened' mean in concrete terms? Did you have a dream you interpreted as God's communication, for example?

How would any nonbeliever come to faith if this quote were true?

Ed Feser (professional philosopher) was persuaded by Thomas Aquinas' logical arguments. I think they rest on uncertain premises, but apparently Feser thinks the premises are correct, from which the conclusion logically follows.

 

[Bob Crowley]

When God talks to us He usually uses something that we're familiar with. Moses would have been familiar with shrubs in the outback, and no doubt with fires from time to time, but a bush that burnt without being consumed was an oddity based on previous experience.

In my own case when I was at a low point as an atheist, going through a divorce, out of work and at home with the flu, God used the image of the Presbyterian Church where I'd had some Sunday School training to get my attention. It was a place I knew, and the image was very persistent. So I went back there, and a few weeks later became a Christian. I think God wanted me to go there at that time specifically because of the pastor who was in charge at that time (and his family, and other people in the church). But God appealed to my past experience.

Incidentally I was at a Catholic based meeting tonight and it turned out one of the ladies on the committe had also had some Sunday School training at the very same Presbyterian Church when she was a kid. Small world at times!

My sister died some years ago but when she had not been long married she and her husband built a new home. It was almost the first house in the suburb and on acreage, so it was "isolated".

Anyway they went out one night with their young daughter or daughters. But there came a point where my sister started getting this nagging feeling about whether she'd set the house alarm or not. It was so persistent she said to her husband she was going back to check it.

He told her to stay there with the kids and he'd check it. As he got closer to the house he could see a light under the house. He thought first that burglars might be there, but when he got closer he could see flames licking up the laundry wall. He managed to put it out (some years later becoming a fireman into the bargain), and then went back to the party. It seems the fluid he'd been using on some floor decking could self ignite if the rags were left clumped together and he hadn't read the fine print. He'd left them in a cardboard box.

There was the aspect of the timing. If he'd been five minutes earlier, he'd probably have noticed nothing amiss, set the alarm and left. After he'd gone the fire would have broken out.

If he'd been five minutes later, the fire might well have been indistiguishable with a bucket or hose as it was a timber house.

As my sister said "Someone was looking after us that night!" But the thing was the God appealed to her with something that she could relate to - a nagging sense of urgency about checking the alarm. He did not send an image of a fire which she most likely would have ignored.

When God talks to us He usually starts with something that we're famiiar with. Christ called fishermen to become "fishers of men".

 

[Margaret3110]

Please share this story in detail. What does 'reached out to me' and 'I listened' mean in concrete terms? Did you have a dream you interpreted as God's communication, for example?


Ed Feser (professional philosopher) was persuaded by Thomas Aquinas' logical arguments. I think they rest on uncertain premises, but apparently Feser thinks the premises are correct, from which the conclusion logically follows.

I had several dreams, among other things, but I am not comfortable sharing details here.

I suppose it’s true that one could be persuaded by merely logical means, but I don’t think that’s how most people come to faith.