Why is earth's AGE important to you?

[Ephesians321]

That's interesting, as it's only recently that I've considered the Nephilim to be a giant (hybrid) offspring of the fallen angels, if that's what you're saying. I think they were all wiped out from the flood, but they reappeared afterward as a result of more fallen angels doing the same thing. Tim Chaffey wrote a book on it called, "Fallen: The Sons of God and the Nephilim."

As far as the animals on the ark, Answers in Genesis have great articles to explain this stuff. One thing they reason is that the animals must have been at a junior age.

I believe it was definitely a massive regional flood because these animals didn't just magically redistribute themselves across vast oceans and through hostile climates they weren't adapted for. The Hebrew word for mountains is also used for hills and hill country.

 

[didactics]

I believe it was definitely a massive regional flood because these animals didn't just magically redistribute themselves across vast oceans and through hostile climates they weren't adapted for. The Hebrew word for mountains is also used for hills and hill country.

What about the ark itself? Do you believe there really was an ark or not? You seem to have objections with animals going on board for that long a time.

Also, how do you reconcile what is said about the promise never to flood the whole earth again (Ge 9:11)? There have been plenty of regional floods since then but never a global one.

 

[Ephesians321]

What about the ark itself? Do you believe there really was an ark or not? You seem to have objections with animals going on board for that long a time.

Also, how do you reconcile what is said about the promise never to flood the whole earth again (Ge 9:11)? There have been plenty of regional floods since then but never a global one.

I believe in the ark and regional flood indeed. Besides...

Sweeping world-wide expressions in Genesis 7 are obvious local references elsewhere in the Bible.
A. Genesis: “All flesh died that moved upon the earth [erets #776].” Ge 7:21
Compare: “All the earth [erets #776] came into Egypt to buy grain.” Ge 41:57

B. Genesis 7: “He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the ground [erets #776]. Ge 7:23
Compare: Cain, said, “Behold, you have driven me out this day from the face of the earth [erets #776].” Ge 4:14

C. Genesis: “All the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.” Ge 7:19
Compare: “This day will I begin to put the dread of you [Israel]…on the peoples who are under the whole heaven.” Dt 2:25

Below is a visual representation of the various 'senses' carried by אֶרֶץ‎ [erets #776]

The sense chart shows the various senses along with their frequency of use in the Hebrew Bible. It is clear that the senses of 'land' (whether in the 'sense' of being a nation or territory) and 'earth' are the most frequent senses implied by this word throughout the Hebrew Bible.

 

[didactics]

I believe in the ark and regional flood indeed. Besides...

Sweeping world-wide expressions in Genesis 7 are obvious local references elsewhere in the Bible.
A. Genesis: “All flesh died that moved upon the earth [erets #776].” Ge 7:21
Compare: “All the earth [erets #776] came into Egypt to buy grain.” Ge 41:57

B. Genesis 7: “He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the ground [erets #776]. Ge 7:23
Compare: Cain, said, “Behold, you have driven me out this day from the face of the earth [erets #776].” Ge 4:14

C. Genesis: “All the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.” Ge 7:19
Compare: “This day will I begin to put the dread of you [Israel]…on the peoples who are under the whole heaven.” Dt 2:25

Below is a visual representation of the various 'senses' carried by אֶרֶץ‎ [erets #776]
View attachment 339509

The sense chart shows the various senses along with their frequency of use in the Hebrew Bible. It is clear that the senses of 'land' (whether in the 'sense' of being a nation or territory) and 'earth' are the most frequent senses implied by this word throughout the Hebrew Bible.

Well, the way you started off on this subject you seemed to express doubt of any such ark.

Ark: practical considerations Noah is commonly thought to have been in the ark for over a year—see Genesis 7:4 to 8:14. A cow eats 8,000 pounds of food and drinks 8,000 pounds of water a year. A person eats 1,500 pounds of food and 1,500 pounds of water a year. One begins to see problems with the need for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds of food and water for the year and ways to store and avoid spoilage. What about fecal matter, predators, mating and off-spring? These are just a few of many considerations.

The dimensions of the ark are described as a large vessel.

The Hebrew word for mountains is also used for hills and hill country.

Then you are saying all the high hills of the country were covered in water. How is it the water covers all the high hills in the land without it covering the land beyond?

 

[Ephesians321]

Well, the way you started off on this subject you seemed to express doubt of any such ark.

The dimensions of the ark are described as a large vessel.

Then you are saying all the high hills of the country were covered in water. How is it the water covers all the high hills in the land without it covering the land beyond?

No, I believe in a massive regional flood in which God chose to preserve the Messianic bloodline. This flood covered the hills and hill country but not literally the mountains and the whole globe. This may have been the reason Enoch was taken by God due to the growing evil and ungodliness. Maybe even serving to preserve Enoch from its corrupting force. Please remember this is primordial earth and their view of the whole earth and its sheer immensity might be quite diminutive compared to our's today.

 

[didactics]

No, I believe in a massive regional flood in which God chose to preserve the Messianic bloodline. This flood covered the hills and hill country but not literally the mountains and the whole globe. This may have been the reason Enoch was taken by God due to the growing evil and ungodliness. Maybe even serving to preserve Enoch from its corrupting force. Please remember this is primordial earth and their view of the whole earth and its sheer immensity might be quite diminutive compared to our's today.

People were not as stupid or primitive as we assume and that is based on evolutionary assumptions. People cannot fathom a world thousands of years ago with thriving civilizations because we pride ourselves as moderns. Take for example the city of Atlantis. Certain people have decided to be the gatekeepers of history and tell us definitively that it was just a myth. As more evidence comes to light, it seems clear that the city was located to a place that is now the Sahara desert. If you want to look into it, it was a video explained on YouTube by the channel, Bright Insight. He gives credit for this explanation getting out there mostly in part from a documentary from Gaia, a paid subscription service.

Also Christopher Columbus downplayed the measurements of Eratosthenes so that he could get permission to sail from east to west. He was an explorer at heart and he wanted to set sail in spite of the risks involved.

 

[Ephesians321]

People were not as stupid or primitive as we assume and that is based on evolutionary assumptions. People cannot fathom a world thousands of years ago with thriving civilizations because we pride ourselves as moderns. Take for example the city of Atlantis. Certain people have decided to be the gatekeepers of history and tell us definitively that it was just a myth. As more evidence comes to light, it seems clear that the city was located to a place that is now the Sahara desert. If you want to look into it, it was a video explained on YouTube by the channel, Bright Insight. He gives credit for this explanation getting out there mostly in part from a documentary from Gaia, a paid subscription service.

Also Christopher Columbus downplayed the measurements of Eratosthenes so that he could get permission to sail from east to west. He was an explorer at heart and he wanted to set sail in spite of the risks involved.

I agree but primordial man did not have the knowledge we possess now that is a fact. I believe the flood was massive maybe covering all of Mesopotamia and perhaps some beyond. Can you imagine what that experience would have been like to primordial man? Without the benefit of telescopes or binoculars. They can only see as far as the naked eye and on every horizon is all water. No land in sight.

 

[didactics]

I agree but primordial man did not have the knowledge we possess now that is a fact. I believe the flood was massive maybe covering all of Mesopotamia and perhaps some beyond. Can you imagine what that experience would have been like to primordial man? Without the benefit of telescopes or binoculars. They can only see as far as the naked eye and on every horizon is all water. No land in sight.

What's interesting to me is that those from Answers in Genesis make the same observation as you do but come to the opposite conclusion. They say a partial judgment in Noah's day would mean a partial judgment to come according to 2 Pe 3:6-7. This is similar to what you were saying because you say Matt. 24 is speaking about the judgment of Israel not the whole world as stated in this next quote.

The mockers willfully forgot their history regarding Noah’s day when the unrighteous were swept from the land. It is important to note the physical earth was not destroyed with the flood, but rather, the world of ungodly men. The same would be true of the coming national judgment of Israel and the destruction of the Old Covenant in AD 70.

What I would argue however is that old testament prophets have used language like this for the kind of emphasis needed to draw a picture in their mind that their world is going down. If it could be said of a single nation that the cosmos will be destroyed, I think it would really drive home the point for the Israelis that it would be like the flood of Noah's day if it was global.

But I am convinced this also speaks about a worldwide judgment to come as well. Because something interesting to note is that if the great mountain ranges were to be leveled out and ocean abysses like the Mariana Trench evened out no land would be above the surface of the sea. That is something said by Jacques Cousteau. I could see how a fiery judgment literally wiping out all the wicked could at the same time be the undoing of the curse, if there would be no more sea. Because Revelation speaks of there being no more sea and as long as the ground is no more cursed by thorns and thistles, all the land will flourish as intended.

This is all speculation, but I think paradise restored looks similar to Pangaea but instead of hills and valleys with no great mountains like the Himalayas and the waters more evened out with no great trenches, the sea level goes down by a lot. All this to say, I think the earth could have been so ruined in a day by a massive flood likely due to the plate tectonic shifting quickly not millions of years as evolutionists suspect, and it could be brought together again in a day.

 

[Ephesians321]

What's interesting to me is that those from Answers in Genesis make the same observation as you do but come to the opposite conclusion. They say a partial judgment in Noah's day would mean a partial judgment to come according to 2 Pe 3:6-7. This is similar to what you were saying because you say Matt. 24 is speaking about the judgment of Israel not the whole world as stated in this next quote.

What I would argue however is that old testament prophets have used language like this for the kind of emphasis needed to draw a picture in their mind that their world is going down. If it could be said of a single nation that the cosmos will be destroyed, I think it would really drive home the point for the Israelis that it would be like the flood of Noah's day if it was global.

But I am convinced this also speaks about a worldwide judgment to come as well. Because something interesting to note is that if the great mountain ranges were to be leveled out and ocean abysses like the Mariana Trench evened out no land would be above the surface of the sea. That is something said by Jacques Cousteau. I could see how a fiery judgment literally wiping out all the wicked could at the same time be the undoing of the curse, if there would be no more sea. Because Revelation speaks of there being no more sea and as long as the ground is no more cursed by thorns and thistles, all the land will flourish as intended.

This is all speculation, but I think paradise restored looks similar to Pangaea but instead of hills and valleys with no great mountains like the Himalayas and the waters more evened out with no great trenches, the sea level goes down by a lot. All this to say, I think the earth could have been so ruined in a day by a massive flood likely due to the plate tectonic shifting quickly not millions of years as evolutionists suspect, and it could be brought together again in a day.

Revelations says no more sea simply means no more racial divide sea is a symbol for Gentiles. I posted this before but now have edited it for greater clarity and readability. Please read below!

THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS HAPPENED MANY TIMES

The “day of the Lord” was an oft repeated occurrence in the Old Testament and never involved a physical appearance of Yahweh. However, what was visible was the utter devastation left by His judgment. With the New Testament anticipation of Jesus’ “Day of the Lord” we are told he would come in the “glory of the Father” (Lk. 9:26). Jesus came invisibly in judgment just as his Father had, but that which was visible was the utter ruin of Israel, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the heart of the Jewish State. These events sealed the fulfillment of all prophecy and ushered in the fullness of the spiritual Kingdom of God. Please note the use of Hebraic apocalyptic hyperbolic language through-out and cloud reference in #2.

1. Yahweh used the Assyrians to Defeat Israel, 721 BC.

Day of the LORD: “Woe to you that desire the day of the LORD!..[It] is darkness and not light…” Amos 5:18f

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “For behold the LORD is coming forth out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains will be molten under him and the valleys will be cleft like wax before the fire …” Micah 1:3-4
_____

2. Yahweh used Sargon of Assyria to Defeat Egypt, circa 712 BC.

Day of the LORD: “Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and shall come to Egypt…” Isaiah 19:1

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt in its midst.” Is. 19:1 (see ch. 19-20)
_____

3. Yahweh used Nebuchadnezzar to Defeat Pharaoh at Carchemish, 605 BC.

Day of the LORD: “…Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…” Jer. 46:10

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “For they shall march with an army, and come against her with axes, as wood cutters. They shall cut down her forest, says Yahweh, though it can't be searched; because they are more than the locusts, and are innumerable.” Jer. 46:22-23
_____

4. Yahweh used the Babylonians to Defeat Jerusalem, 586 BC.

Day of the LORD: “For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation.” Jer. 4:27

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…the heavens had no light, the mountains were quaking and all the hills moved back and forth…there was no man, and all the birds of the sky had fled…the earth shall mourn and the heavens above be black…" Jer. 4:23-29
____

5. Yahweh used the Babylonians to Defeat Edom, 583 BC.

Day of the LORD: “For the LORD has a day of vengeance…” Is. 34:8

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “All the host of sky shall be dissolved, and the sky shall roll up like a scroll. All their hosts shall fall…the Lord has a sword. It is sated with blood, it is gorged with fat….Its streams will be turned into pitch, its dust into sulfur, and its land will become burning pitch.” Isaiah 34:4,5,9
_____

6. Yahweh used the Medes to Defeat Babylon, 539 BC.

Day of the LORD: “Behold the day the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger to make the earth a desolation." Isaiah 13:9

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…The stars of the sky and its constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine. I will make people more rare than fine gold… Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place in the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, and in the day of his fierce anger…” Isaiah 13:10-13
_____

7. The Son of Man used the Romans to Defeat Israel AD 67-70.

Day of the LORD: “The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night…you* are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief.” I These. 5:2-4. (see also I Cor. 1:8)

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, … they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory….” Matt. 24:29f
_____

* Paul was writing to first century believers (circa AD 52) some of whom would witness this event.

Note: Day of the Lord=Coming of the Lord=Coming of the Son of Man= coming in clouds=the day of Christ=the second coming=that day

 

[didactics]

Revelations says no more sea simply means no more racial divide sea is a symbol for Gentiles. I posted this before but now have edited it for greater clarity and readability. Please read below!

Yes, I get that, there is a symbolic meaning. The sea is often associated with death and chaos. The sea was part of God's good plan in creation, but what I speculate is that all the land was one super continent Pangaea the day God made it. And it's my understanding that the sea also became a symbol of division once the continents split apart. The difference is that I think it happened over a short period of time during Noah's day by a global flood. It's possible there were sources of water deep in the earth and the waters were released when the ground split apart. I'm just further speculating that the earth will be transformed one day when there is a bodily resurrection, and that transformation may involve decreasing the sea level dramatically.

 

[Job 33:6]

What's interesting to me is that those from Answers in Genesis make the same observation as you do but come to the opposite conclusion. They say a partial judgment in Noah's day would mean a partial judgment to come according to 2 Pe 3:6-7. This is similar to what you were saying because you say Matt. 24 is speaking about the judgment of Israel not the whole world as stated in this next quote.

What I would argue however is that old testament prophets have used language like this for the kind of emphasis needed to draw a picture in their mind that their world is going down. If it could be said of a single nation that the cosmos will be destroyed, I think it would really drive home the point for the Israelis that it would be like the flood of Noah's day if it was global.

But I am convinced this also speaks about a worldwide judgment to come as well. Because something interesting to note is that if the great mountain ranges were to be leveled out and ocean abysses like the Mariana Trench evened out no land would be above the surface of the sea. That is something said by Jacques Cousteau. I could see how a fiery judgment literally wiping out all the wicked could at the same time be the undoing of the curse, if there would be no more sea. Because Revelation speaks of there being no more sea and as long as the ground is no more cursed by thorns and thistles, all the land will flourish as intended.

This is all speculation, but I think paradise restored looks similar to Pangaea but instead of hills and valleys with no great mountains like the Himalayas and the waters more evened out with no great trenches, the sea level goes down by a lot. All this to say, I think the earth could have been so ruined in a day by a massive flood likely due to the plate tectonic shifting quickly not millions of years as evolutionists suspect, and it could be brought together again in a day.

Genesis doesnt say anything about pangea, the mariana trench, plate tectonics or anything of the like.

Genesis describes ancient near eastern cosmology. Its not a science textbook.

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, or seen the armory of the hail,
Job 38:22
God stores his weapons and mana in storehouses to help the isrealites in battle, and to give gifts to His people.

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
Revelation 4:1

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

 

[didactics]

Genesis doesnt say anything about pangea, the mariana trench, plate tectonics or anything of the like.

Genesis describes ancient near eastern cosmology. Its not a science textbook.

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, or seen the armory of the hail,
Job 38:22
God stores his weapons and mana in storehouses to help the isrealites in battle, and to give gifts to His people.

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
Revelation 4:1

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

View attachment 339709

Since we know the Bible is God's word, whatever it speaks on we know it's the truth. And I take Genesis 1 and 2 as history not poetry. There are 4 main views about what is the firmament. Some say it's the atmosphere and clouds. Some say it's a hard metal-like dome over the atmosphere. Still others say the “waters above” is a vapor canopy above the atmosphere that collapsed at the beginning of Noah’s flood. Or the view I find most compelling, the firmament or expanse is what we today call outer space and the “waters above” are the outer boundary of the universe.

 

[Job 33:6]

Since we know the Bible is God's word, whatever it speaks on we know it's the truth. And I take Genesis 1 and 2 as history not poetry. There are 4 main views about what is the firmament. Some say it's the atmosphere and clouds. Some say it's a hard metal-like dome over the atmosphere. Still others say the “waters above” is a vapor canopy above the atmosphere that collapsed at the beginning of Noah’s flood. Or the view I find most compelling, the firmament or expanse is what we today call outer space and the “waters above” are the outer boundary of the universe.

Your understanding of Genesis implies that you are unfamiliar with ancient near eastern context and cosmology. Thats the bottom line. The video noted above identifies the context. The question then becomes if youre able to accept what the Bible says, or not.

With the above said, referring to concepts such as pangea, plate tectonics, or the mariana trench, is to refer to an improper or incorrect context of Genesis. It is simply a misunderstanding of what the Bible says.

The context of Genesis is Ancient Near Eastern.

Also, Genesis 7:11 and Genesis 8:2 involve waters above passing through the windows of the raqia to flood the earth.

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

It is not reasonable to believe that water traveled through intergalactic space from the edge of the universe to flood the earth.

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

Here^ God is seen walking above the expanse. Additional evidence that it does not extend to the edge of the universe.

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

The text clearly indicates a solid nature of the raqia^.


He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

The beams of Gods chambers on on the waters above, where there are clouds and wings of the wind, indicating that the waters above are not identified as being beyond the edge of the universe.


It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

The huq is above the earth, not above or beyond the entirety of the universe. The heavens are like a curtain over the earth, not over the entire universe.


pillars of heaven, circle on the face of the deep, thats ancient near eastern cosmology unless you think earth literally rests on pillars.

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

The earth is spread out above the waters below. The waters below are not within the earth, but rather are below the earth.

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

The earth rests on columns and pillars in ancient cosmology.

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The skies are a boundary for the waters above, not the edge of the universe.

The Old Testament is simply describing ancient near east cosmology.

This has nothing to do with pangea, plate tectonics or anything of the like.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It has importance when spreading the Good News. There would be more success if the Genesis 6 day creation story was not presented as literal. It does become a non- starter for some unbelivers. Blessings.

The age of the earth is a trivial matter compared to the rest of the miracles contained in the Bible that are much harder to believe for those who don’t believe in miracles. There are many Christians who don’t believe that the earth is 6000 years old because of interpretational preferences however other miracles like a talking donkey or a woman instantly turning into a pillar of salt don’t provide such an easy out for interpretational preference.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thankyou.
If I understand you, you mean the importance of the earth's age is about how it effects the success of Gospel preaching.

Let me ask you this. Would there be other things in the Bible if not presented so literally (like the virgin birth of Jesus) which would make more success in spreading the Good News?

Amen or the resurrection of Christ after being dead for three days for example?

 

[didactics]

Your understanding of Genesis implies that you are unfamiliar with ancient near eastern context and cosmology. Thats the bottom line. The video noted above identifies the context. The question then becomes if youre able to accept what the Bible says, or not.

With the above said, referring to concepts such as pangea, plate tectonics, or the mariana trench, is to refer to an improper or incorrect context of Genesis. It is simply a misunderstanding of what the Bible says.

The context of Genesis is Ancient Near Eastern.

Also, Genesis 7:11 and Genesis 8:2 involve waters above passing through the windows of the raqia to flood the earth.

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

It is not reasonable to believe that water traveled through intergalactic space from the edge of the universe to flood the earth.

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

Here^ God is seen walking above the expanse. Additional evidence that it does not extend to the edge of the universe.

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

The text clearly indicates a solid nature of the raqia^.


He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

The beams of Gods chambers on on the waters above, where there are clouds and wings of the wind, indicating that the waters above are not identified as being beyond the edge of the universe.


It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

The huq is above the earth, not above or beyond the entirety of the universe. The heavens are like a curtain over the earth, not over the entire universe.


pillars of heaven, circle on the face of the deep, thats ancient near eastern cosmology unless you think earth literally rests on pillars.

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

The earth is spread out above the waters below. The waters below are not within the earth, but rather are below the earth.

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

The earth rests on columns and pillars in ancient cosmology.

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The skies are a boundary for the waters above, not the edge of the universe.

View attachment 339714


The Old Testament is simply describing ancient near east cosmology.

This has nothing to do with pangea, plate tectonics or anything of the like.

In Genesis 7:11 is it speaking about waters above the firmament or floodgates of the sky? As you point out raqiya‘ means firmament, but in Genesis 7:11 it does not use that word.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

This is not literally speaking of waters being released above the firmament but instead "in the open firmament of heaven.”

Genesis 1:20
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

No, the Bible is not a science textbook but we know that a supercontinent has existed once and we know plate tectonics or the earth splitting to create separate land masses is a thing and I have reason to believe this happened relatively shortly. The problem is when we treat the science textbook as the Bible, as textbooks are constantly being updated as we learn new things and correct false ideas from the past. Lastly, Genesis 1:9–10 suggests that all of the land was once connected.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Something out - rather all things - out of NOTHING - Isn't that miraculous? We can't do it!

Amen. I agree.
Even His decreeing such laws is astounding.

Did I mention millions of years? I thought I mean to convey some unknown period of time prior to the six days God "made" heaven and earth. I don't know how long in our present measurement methods was.

Hmm. . . "Chase a lie".
It is important to some dear Christians that they can counter current and shifting science explanations to defend a view of Genesis.
It is important to them that dinosaurs are not seen as living and dying before a time they think all death came to living things from Adam.

Some dear ones say Romans says death came through Adam. (Rom. 5:12)
Did Paul mean death came to everything like insects only through Adam?

Noah coated the inside of the ark with pitch.
Make yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make rooms in the ark and shall cover it within and without with pitch. (Gen 6:14)

Pitch is a petroleum product in the earth indicating dead things long passed.
I know it was proposed that this pitch was from tree sap.
I think it was that oily stuff which latter we are told was in pits.

I'm going with a pre-Adamic world that was judged and rendered waste and void of Genesis 1:1.
Latter in the Bible we learn of a being of great authority that God judged because he sought
to oppose the authority of God and the holiness of God.

The number of years of the universe is of secondary importance to the church.
In order that this enemy be crushed under the feet of the prevailing church, his tactics, history, origin needs to be exposed.
Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom. 6:20)

It is matter of spiritual warfare that is important. That is to know the enemy.
Does the enemy want to rob man of the knowledge that God is the CREATOR? Yes he does.
And we should stand against that.

But he does more than that. He obscures his origin, past authority, past dominion, failed career.
As long as Christians think the main thing is that God take forgiven sinners off to a happy place, Heaven, he cares less.
When the church grasps that God created man to replace this failed authority on the earth, Satan keeps men blind all the more.

When I read the words "and let them have dominion" I sometimes emphasize like this "and let THEM have dominion".
The previous ruler on God's behalf has been fired. He is to be judged. A new creation out of the dust - man is now here.
And God says "let THEM have dominion" over all the earth. His plan has not changed.

A pre-Adamic era is important to understand for this reason and little else.
My interest is not that we know how many years the universe has existed.
My more important matter is that the the Anointed Cherub who previously ruled be as exposed as necessary.

In your next post to me you can tell me WHERE in the garden of Eden was this Anointed Cherub who became Satan?

Ezk 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord Jehovah, O you who sealed up perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty,
Ezk 28:13You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald, with gold. The workmanship of your tambourines and your pipes was prepared with you on the day that you were created.
Ezk 28:14You were the anointed cherub who covered the Ark; indeed I set you, so that you were upon the holy mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezk 28:15You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you

Do you believe that concurrently WITH Adam, in the garden, another grand and glorious being was endowed with great reigning authority?
This is confusion. This being being created an put in Eden concurrently with Adam during the six days is a mistaken understanding.
This must have been a PREVIOUS Eden.

And, the prince of Tyre is not the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28. The king of Tyre is a figure pointing to Satan. This was the prophetic past the prophet spoke of. If you run after young earth interpretations and this will likely be obscured when it is meant to be clear.
But in thier interest to have Satan having all his career during the six days this revelation of the prophetic past must be negated by them.
The same problem occurs with their treatment of Isaiah 14 and its Daystar.

Both passages point to the origin of the enemy of God and the church.
Other things are important besides a 6,000 year old universe dogma.


What I focus on here is the nature of man's creation.
Psalm 8 being a Psalm about creation strongly implies the creation of man had also the purpose to execute the advasaries of God.

O Jehovah our Lord, / How excellent is Your name / In all the earth, / You who have set Your glory over the heavens!
Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings / You have established strength / Because of Your adversaries, / To stop the enemy and the avenger. (vs. 1,2)

When human beings were created there was an Avenger and his adversaries. They had already been judged. They awaited
execution. Man was created to replace this failed dominion and side with God for their execution.
The human being one with God were created to still the enemy and stop him. Even the babes and sucklings among human beings were created for this.

Satan knows this if God's people do not. Satan would keep them ignorant.
He will accept that this new dusty creation just wants to be loved, forgiven and "go to heaven".
On thier way to "going to heaven" some argue that the Bible proves a young 6,000 year old universe. And that is that!

The battle from the beginning has always been over who will have authority over the EARTH.
Boy am I ever verbose. Thanks for reading down to this point.

Yes.
My point here is that this dusty being was an affront to Satan's pride.
How can THIS being replace him in his past deputy reigning for God?

Satan and his failed opposition party hate this dusty creation, man, to the uttermost.
And they know God will use this dusty being eventually to put Satan, demons, fallen angels, and the unbelieving rebellious humans into the lake of fire.

Please notice. On every day of the six days God said what He had prepared was good, EXCEPT for the second day.
The ancient rebels still occupied the air. The firmament above the earth STILL had swarms of the beings of the previous pre-Adamic age waiting to derail God's plans.

And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. (Gen. 1:8)

Only on Day #2 He did not say what He had made "it was good".
The spirit which now operates in the sons of disobedience was there in the air.
That was not good. This was the evil one in the air. This one Adam was to guard the God's interests against.
Adam failed. Instead he led away under his evil illegitimate renegade authority.

In which you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience; (Eph. 2:2)

This one appeared in the garden of Eden in the guise of a lying serpent.
He preemptively acted to stave off his own execution.


Thankyou for your interesting thoughts on this.

The Hebrew word Yom doesn’t mean an age or an era, the word Beyovm is a variation of the word Yom that means an age or an era. Whenever the word day is used in the Old Testament in reference to an era or an age the word בְּיֹ֗ום (Beyovm) is always used, which means “in the day”. Every time this term Beyovm appears in the Old Testament it is always used in reference to an age or an era and never once used in reference to a literal 24 hour day. And in the same manner Yom is never used in reference to an era or an age throughout the entire Old Testament and always refers to a literal 24 hour day or can also mean daytime. The term Beyovm does not exist in the 6 day creation account in Genesis1. Furthermore there are no examples in the Old Testament of the word Beyovm following a number value in reference to a number of ages or an eras. However there are numerous examples of the word Yom following a number value in reference to a number of literal 24 hour days.

If the pre-ademic era existed before the third day there would be no dry land because the earth was still covered with water, furthermore there would be no plants or trees. So you can’t have a garden without land or plants. God created the heavens, the earth, and the seas, and everything in them in 6 Yoms not Beyovms.

If anyone disagrees with this I would challenge them to produce a verse other than in Genesis 1 where the word Yom is used in reference to an era or where the word Beyovm is used in reference to a 24 hour day. Feel free to use the links below to search the Bible for the term “in the day” or any other terms you may choose then you can cross reference the verses you find with biblehub and see which usage of Yom is actually being used.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: In the day of

www.biblegateway.com

Genesis 2:4 Lexicon: This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

 

[Job 33:6]

In Genesis 7:11 is it speaking about waters above the firmament or floodgates of the sky? As you point out raqiya‘ means firmament, but in Genesis 7:11 it does not use that word.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

This is not literally speaking of waters being released above the firmament but instead "in the open firmament of heaven.”

Genesis 1:20
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

No, the Bible is not a science textbook but we know that a supercontinent has existed once and we know plate tectonics or the earth splitting to create separate land masses is a thing and I have reason to believe this happened relatively shortly. The problem is when we treat the science textbook as the Bible, as textbooks are constantly being updated as we learn new things and correct false ideas from the past. Lastly, Genesis 1:9–10 suggests that all of the land was once connected.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[8] God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭8:2‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[2] the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,

The Hebrew word for sky and heavens are the same. It's just different depending on the English translation you use. The term is referring to the solid dome raqia.

In Genesis 1:14, birds fly above the earth across the [flat] face of the raqia. Just as the spirit hovers over the face of the waters.

The birds do not fly "in" the raqia. And the stars are set "in" the raqia in Genesis.

So unless you think that birds are flying among the stars and sun and moon, you're incorrect.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,

 

[Job 33:6]

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[8] God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭8:2‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[2] the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,

The Hebrew word for sky and heavens are the same. It's just different depending on the English translation you use. The term is referring to the solid dome raqia.

View attachment 339715
In Genesis 1:14, birds fly above the earth across the [flat] face of the raqia. Just as the spirit hovers over the face of the waters.

The birds do not fly "in" the raqia. And the stars are set "in" the raqia in Genesis.

So unless you think that birds are flying among the stars and sun and moon, you're incorrect.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,

Genesis is very well established and widely known among Biblical scholars to be reflecting ancient near east cosmology.

This is very well known and confirmed by countless resources.

 

[oikonomia]

If the pre-ademic era existed before the third day there would be no dry land because the earth was still covered with water, furthermore there would be no plants or trees. So you can’t have a garden without land or plants. God created the heavens, the earth, and the seas, and everything in them in 6 Yoms not Beyovms.

I have not been frequenting this thread since I said basically why a pre-adamic age is important to
grasping aspects of spiritual warfare imo.

Having stated this a few times I have not posted here lately.

To this comment above I would ask -
If God overthrew a world prior to verse 2 and recovered the earth (with some further creation) having in mind man as its center,
could this statement still be true?

For in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore Jehovah blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it. (Exo. 20:11)