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Why did the vatican remove 14 books from bible?

DW1980

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My understanding is that historically these books were included alongside the 66 books of the Bible as Apocryphal texts - that is, considered useful but not Scripture.

After the Reformation, protestants stopped including them in the Bible (which is consistent with sola scriptura). The Vatican held the Council of Trent between 1545 and 1563, which placed these books into the official canon of Scripture for the Roman Catholic Church, so there was no longer a real distinction (though they are still referred to as "deutero-canonical", from the Greek meaning "belonging to the second canon").
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Why did the Vatican remove the below books from bible?
  • 1 Esdras
  • 2 Esdras
  • Tobit
  • Judith
  • The rest of Esther
  • The Wisdom of Solomon
  • Ecclesiasticus
  • Baruch with the epistle Jeremiah
  • The Songs of the 3 Holy children
  • The history of Susana
  • bel and the dragon
  • The prayer for Manasses
  • 1 Maccabees
  • 2 Maccabees

Short answer:
The Vatican did not. They are regarded as deuterocanonical, meaning secondary, since they do not belong to the Jewish canon, but were included in the Septuagint, the Scriptures of the hellenized, Greek-speaking Jews of late antiquity.

Martin Luther and other Protestants regarded them as downright apocryphal, though, removing them even further from the official canon.

For more on the different canons of the different churches and denominations, here's an overview:
Biblical canon - Wikipedia
 
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Radagast

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If they are word of God why is it not included in RSV which is most used bible.

The RSV isn't the most-used Bible. Also, the RSV is available both with and without the Apocrypha.

Even some of the new English translations exist (see NIV & NKJV as examples) because publisher's wanted to control the publishing rights.

No, that's not why the NIV and NKJV exist.

The NIV is owned by the International Bible Society (not by the publisher, Zondervan) and was developed to be an accurate, readable translation in modern English.

The NKJV was developed to be a modernised version of the KJV.

My understanding is that historically these books were included alongside the 66 books of the Bible as Apocryphal texts - that is, considered useful but not Scripture.

After the Reformation, protestants stopped including them in the Bible (which is consistent with sola scriptura).

It was a gradual process. An early Reformation statement says "We distinguish between [the canonical] books and the apocryphal ones, which are the third and fourth books of Esdras; the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, ...

The church may certainly read these books and learn from them as far as they agree with the canonical books. But they do not have such power and virtue that one could confirm
from their testimony any point of faith or of the Christian religion. Much less can they detract from the authority of the other holy books."
 
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Godistruth1

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The RSV isn't the most-used Bible. Also, the RSV is available both with and without the Apocrypha.



No, that's not why the NIV and NKJV exist.

The NIV is owned by the International Bible Society (not by the publisher, Zondervan) and was developed to be an accurate, readable translation in modern English.

The NKJV was developed to be a modernised version of the KJV.



It was a gradual process. An early Reformation statement says "We distinguish between [the canonical] books and the apocryphal ones, which are the third and fourth books of Esdras; the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, ...

The church may certainly read these books and learn from them as far as they agree with the canonical books. But they do not have such power and virtue that one could confirm
from their testimony any point of faith or of the Christian religion. Much less can they detract from the authority of the other holy books."
RSV is the most used bible in the whole world !!
 
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Radagast

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RSV is the most used bible in the whole world !!

Not even close.

In the US, the RSV is used by about 2% of people. The NIV and KJV are still fighting it out for most popular English version, with the ESV coming third.

In the rest of the world, a variety of non-English translations are also very popular.
 
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FenderTL5

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The NIV is owned by the International Bible Society (not by the publisher, Zondervan)
I didn't name the publisher/rights holder but: (copy/paste)

Copyright Information


The NIV text may be quoted in any form (written, visual, electronic or audio), up to and inclusive of five hundred (500) verses without express written permission of the publisher, providing the verses do not amount to a complete book of the Bible nor do the verses quoted account for twenty-five percent (25%) or more of the total text of the work in which they are quoted.

When the NIV is quoted in works that exercise the above fair use clause, notice of copyright must appear on the title or copyright page or opening screen of the work (whichever is appropriate) as follows:

THE HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION®, NIV® Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

These Scriptures are copyrighted by the Biblica, Inc.® and have been made available on the Internet for your personal use only. Any other use including, but not limited to, copying or reposting on the Internet is prohibited. These Scriptures may not be altered or modified in any form and must remain in their original context. These Scriptures may not be sold or otherwise offered for sale.

These Scriptures are not shareware and may not be duplicated.

When quotations from the NIV text are used in non-salable media such as church bulletins, orders of service, posters, transparencies or similar media, a complete copyright notice is not required, but the initial NIV must appear at the end of each quotation.

Any commentary or other Biblical reference work produced for commercial sale that uses the New International Version must obtain written permission for the use of the NIV text.

Permission requests for commercial use within the U.S. and Canada that exceed the above guidelines must be directed to, and approved in writing by, HarperCollins Christian Publishing, Attention: Permissions Department, P.O. Box 141000, Nashville, TN 37214.

Permission requests for commercial use within the U.K., EEC, and EFTA countries that exceed the above guidelines must be directed to, and approved in writing by, Hodder & Stoughton Ltd., a member of the Hodder Headline Plc. Group, 338 Euston Road, London NW1 3BH.

"New International Version” and “NIV” are registered trademarks of Biblica, Inc.®.

Used with permission.
 
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Knee V

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Also I have to say that Bel and the Dragon is a pretty baller title for a book of the Bible. The Oriental Orthodox are onto something.
Bel and the Dragon, while sometimes considered its own small book, is typically part of the "Additions to Daniel". The Septuagint version of Daniel contains Bel and the Dragon.
 
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Zoness

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Bel and the Dragon, while sometimes considered its own small book, is typically part of the "Additions to Daniel". The Septuagint version of Daniel contains Bel and the Dragon.

Huh, TIL. Thanks for sharing.
 
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Radagast

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These Scriptures are copyrighted by the Biblica, Inc.® and have been made available on the Internet for your personal use only.

Biblica is the new name of the International Bible Society. They own the copyright on the NIV, as I said.

They allow uses of up to 500 verses at a time, but only license specific companies to print the whole Bible (Zondervan in the US, Hodder & Stoughton in the UK). The licensing fees support Biblica's other Bible translation work.

The most important thing about copyright is that it prevents unauthorised changes to the Bible. That makes it a good thing.

In contrast the KJV is public domain, there is no copyright (minus any annotation/notes on specific printings).

Copyright to the KJV is held by the English monarchy. It is, after all, the King James Bible.

However, this copyright is not enforced in the US. Apparently, the US fought some kind of war against the English monarchy.
 
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FenderTL5

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The most important thing about copyright is that it prevents unauthorised changes to the Bible. That makes it a good thing.
You won't find me arguing against copyright protections. However, one of the reasons we have so many English translations is that each publishing group wants to maintain their own rights to the work. This becomes more lucrative with annotated versions. I agree it's not a bad thing in and of itself, but it's part of the reason we have so many translations.
Copyright to the KJV is held by the English monarchy. It is, after all, the King James Bible.

However, this copyright is not enforced in the US. Apparently, the US fought some kind of war against the English monarchy.
No, the Revolutionary War has absolutely nothing to do with it.
The KJV is Public Domain, meaning the time allotment for copyright protection has expired. Again, some annotations could still be protected but not the Bible text itself.
 
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DW1980

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RSV is the most used bible in the whole world !!
No, the NIV is by far the most widely used modern English translation, and the KJV is also widely used. These two would be the most popular ones.

That said - it's important to remember that they are all translations, and as such need to be measured against the original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic texts.
 
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Radagast

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However, one of the reasons we have so many English translations is that each publishing group wants to maintain their own rights to the work.

That's rubbish, because publishing houses don't produce, or even commission, Bible translations.

The KJV is Public Domain, meaning the time allotment for copyright protection has expired.

Actually, the English Crown holds copyright in perpetuity, as part of the Royal Prerogative. Possibly, having fought that Revolutionary War, you don't recognise English law.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Different people have different ideas on what the "word of god" is.

Some books just (definitely do not) seem to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.
M-Bob
 
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Mountainmanbob

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The NIV and KJV are still fighting it out for most popular English version, with the ESV coming third.

Considering that it was published in 2008 the ESV Bible has really taken off in popularity. Probably my favorite Study Bible the ESV.
M-Bob
 
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ViaCrucis

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If they are word of God why is it not included in RSV which is most used bible. Surely it was not excluded because of extra paperwork cost although its the word of God?

They are included in the Catholic edition of the RSV.

http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/biblesearch.asp

The Revised Standard Version is a revision of the earlier American Standard Version (ASV), which itself was begun as part of a revision of the King James Version (KJV). As such it was largely a Protestant work, and Protestant Bible publishers in the mid-late 1800's removed the Deuterocanonical books from English Protestant Bibles, which between the 16th and 19th centuries were published with those books in an appendix between the Old and New Testaments, a tradition that began with Martin Luther's German translation.

Many modern English translations have a Protestant edition and a Catholic edition, or in some cases publish the Deuterocanonical books in their own supplementary volume.

In the strictest sense, then, the ones who removed these books were Bible publishers; though they had been published in a separate appendix in Bibles since the Reformation period, and most Protestants accepted the opinion of Martin Luther that these books were good to read and useful, but not inspired. Notably (and ironically), however, we Lutherans have never had an official position on this subject.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Also I have to say that Bel and the Dragon is a pretty baller title for a book of the Bible. The Oriental Orthodox are onto something.

Bel and the Dragon is the name for the 13th chapter of Daniel, Susanna is the 14th chapter. Since they are only found in Greek Daniel but not in Hebrew/Armaic Daniel, they are not included in the Jewish Tanakh, and were classified with the Deuterocanonical books as "Apocrypha" by Luther. This is also true of the Songs of the Three Holy Children and the Prayer of Manasseh (Also part of Greek Daniel and 2 Chronicles respectively).

All the books (and chapters/portions of books) the OP listed are in the Septuagint; and all but the Prayer of Manasseh are in the Roman Catholic Canon. Though that also depends on what is meant by 1 and 2 Esdras, as this gets complicated.

Correction: Susana is 13 and Bel and the Dragon is 14.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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My understanding is that historically these books were included alongside the 66 books of the Bible as Apocryphal texts - that is, considered useful but not Scripture.

After the Reformation, protestants stopped including them in the Bible (which is consistent with sola scriptura). The Vatican held the Council of Trent between 1545 and 1563, which placed these books into the official canon of Scripture for the Roman Catholic Church, so there was no longer a real distinction (though they are still referred to as "deutero-canonical", from the Greek meaning "belonging to the second canon").

Not accurate information. In the Septuagint and Vulgate these are included fully included in the Old Testament. Protestants didn't remove them, but rather following Luther's opinion that they were "useful, but not inspired" most Protestant groups (except Lutherans) asserted a 66-book Canon with a Masoretic Old Testament, but included the 14 books as "Apocrypha", English Protestant Bibles were published this way up until the mid-late 19th century when they were completely removed from both British and American publishing of the King James Version (which, since 1611, had included them).

Trent didn't place these books into the Canon, but rather defended their inclusion as Canon and comprehensively defined the Canon with their inclusion.

It is true, however, that these books had been questioned by some, St. Athanasius noticeably has most of them absent from his list of Canonical books with the exception of Baruch (and, instead, regards Esther to be apocryphal); St. Jerome had questioned their canonical status, largely on the basis that Jews didn't include them in the Tanakh, though ultimately was convinced to include them in his Latin translation, the Vulgate.

Questions of their canonical status existed in the early centuries, but they also have a very strong tradition of full inclusion. Neither of these points should be dismissed out of hand by either side of the argument.

Fundamentally it really is just this simple: Among Christians there is no universal consensus on the precise number of books in the Biblical Canon; and schisms and breaks in Christianity happened very extensively before a universal consensus was reached in such a way that we would all have precisely the same Bible today. It's not just a disagreement between Catholics and Protestants, but also a disagreement between Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox.

The Canon is a complicated issue with a complicated history.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GeorgeTwo

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Why did the Vatican remove the below books from bible?
  • 1 Esdras
  • 2 Esdras
  • Tobit
  • Judith
  • The rest of Esther
  • The Wisdom of Solomon
  • Ecclesiasticus
  • Baruch with the epistle Jeremiah
  • The Songs of the 3 Holy children
  • The history of Susana
  • bel and the dragon
  • The prayer for Manasses
  • 1 Maccabees
  • 2 Maccabees

These are Jewish books that were never inspired.
 
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ViaCrucis

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These are Jewish books that were never inspired.

That's the opinion of later Jewish authorities when the Jewish Canon was being settled in the 2nd and 3rd centuries by the rabbinic authorities, and it's also the general opinion of most Protestants.

I think a more honest assessment is simply that the Deuterocanonical texts have both a long history of acceptance in the Church, as well as a history of being called into question.

There simply isn't a definitive and authoritative answer to whether or not the Deuterocanonicals are Canon or not. There are definitive and authoritative answers for some Christians, based on their own church's tradition on the matter, for example the Council of Trent in Catholicism, and the various Protestant Confessional texts of different Protestant bodies over the last five hundred years. But there has never been anything resembling a broad, definitive, consensus on the subject in Christianity that can be agreed upon by most everyone.

Granted, I'm also a Lutheran, and Lutheranism doesn't have a definitive position on this subject--the question is open precisely because there is no definitive and authoritative answer to the subject from our perspective. Yes, Luther himself did not consider the Deuterocanonicals to be properly Canonical Scripture (though still important and ought to be read in the Church), but Luther's opinions don't define Lutheranism. As such, since I view the question is technically open, I think dogmatic responses on either side as saying far more than one can actually say. The most honest answer is simply that whether or not the Deuterocanonicals are Canonical Scripture or not remains an open-ended question with which there are significant disagreements within Christianity, and without something definitive that we can all agree upon the issue will remain open in the foreseeable future.

For every ancient father of the Church who does not include [some or all] of the Deuterocanonicals in their Canon lists, there are fathers who do. Which, again, leaves the issue open-ended since there is no firm, universal agreement among the fathers here that we can point to here. St. Athanasius, for example, does not include most of the Deuterocanonicals, but does include Baruch, while excluding Esther. St. Jerome took issue with the Deuterocanonicals, at least initially, but did ultimately include them in his translation of Scripture in Latin (the Vulgate). The local councils at Carthage and Hippo affirm all of the Deuterocanonicals that would eventually be accepted at Trent hundreds of years later, though other local councils such as the one in Laodicea while accepting them have some disagreements with those western local councils. As such, we see differences and disagreements on such matters both when looking at the fathers themselves, and the local pronouncements of different geographic areas of the ancient Church. All of which makes the issue far from crystal in its clarity.

And if none of those things matter, and if one wants to play the "All of the Old Testament is quoted in the New Testament and that's how we know it is Scripture" then it's worth noting that this simply isn't true, there are a number of books which are never quoted, or even alluded to, such as Esther, the Song of Songs, Nahum, and Lamentations. So as a metric of canonical status this simply doesn't work, at least in and of itself.

The simple fact of the matter is that canonicity is something that came about by general consensus in the Christian Church, there simply isn't some divinely inspired table of contents to be found in the Bible itself, nor is there an ancient ecumenical council which enumerates the number and names of the canonical books. The Bible exists because of how it has been received, transmitted, and confessed over time, by the general consensus of the Christian Faithful, throughout history until the present day--and there are still matters, such as the status of the Deuterocanonicals, which simply have never been fully settled.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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