Where did the Church first go wrong?

[Guide To The Bible]

Guidetothebible, "However this was never God's intention". Really??? How wrong you are.

Should we now believe Guidetothebible, over The Apostles in choosing Mathias to replace Judas.

Acts 1:20 For it is written in [the] book of Psalms, Let his homestead become desolate, and let there be no dweller in it; and, Let another take his overseership.

The Eleven Apostles prayed to God and it was by the guidance of the Holy Spirit that guided the Apostles to chose Mathias to replace Judas. And for you to say that doing so is "seemly innocuous act...", you find yourself fighting against the Holy Spirit will, to choose Matthias over Judas.

Guidetothebible, Jesus Christ left His Church in the care of men aka Apostles and unto their Successors. Without Succession the Church dies and the Apostles knew this to be a fact.

Though Paul was chosen by Jesus, Paul an Apostle as well as Barnabas etc..are not part of the twelve. There are only 12 Original Apostles who will judge the 12 tribes of Juda and Mathias was chosen by the Holy Spirit.

I'm sorry if by being Catholic you find this offensive it just is the truth. Paul was the replacement apostle as the Bible says:

Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God--

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

He wrote 32% of the NT, more than any one else. Matthias didn't do much and isn't even mentioned in the Bible again. God does not make mistakes. Jesus chose the 12 Apostle. There are only 12 apostles, everyone else who follows Jesus is a disciple.

The Holy Spirit did not chose Matthias as it was before the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit actually came. So the Holy Spirit wasn't even given at that time. The casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church. If they had of waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

many have considered where it first went wrong with the church it's just that all do not agree.For instance you're talking of matthias being voted into the 12 apostles as something that should not have been done but the bible show us that Jesus gave the apostles much authority.Besides this voting matthias in among the 12apostles was prophecy being fulfilled for basically the scriptures tell us that one close to Jesus would betray him and not only will this traitor die but his position among the 12 apostles would be given to another so i don't believe that voting matthias among the 12 was where the church first went wrong

Acts 2:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

The casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church. If they had of waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The question asked here is where did the CHURCH go wrong, and the answers given that I have seen concern where individuals went wrong.

Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. The Church is said in Scripture to be the pillar and ground of the Truth. The Church was made up of the members of the Body.

Christ did not say individual persons would be infallible. Persons - even the Apostles - made mistakes. But the Holy Spirit kept the Church on track.

 

[Anguspure]

I'm sorry if by being Catholic you find this offensive it just is the truth. Paul was the replacement apostle as the Bible says:

Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God--

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

He wrote 32% of the NT, more than any one else. Matthias didn't do much and isn't even mentioned in the Bible again. God does not make mistakes. Jesus chose the 12 Apostle. There are only 12 apostles, everyone else who follows Jesus is a disciple.

The Holy Spirit did not chose Matthias as it was before the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit actually came. So the Holy Spirit wasn't even given at that time. The casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church. If they had of waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.

Reminds of a story in the OT about a man who got tired of waiting for a promised son and so because of his in impatience started a problem that has lasted for thousands of years now....

 

[Guide To The Bible]

The question asked here is where did the CHURCH go wrong, and the answers given that I have seen concern where individuals went wrong.

Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. The Church is said in Scripture to be the pillar and ground of the Truth. The Church was made up of the members of the Body.

Christ did not say individual persons would be infallible. Persons - even the Apostles - made mistakes. But the Holy Spirit kept the Church on track.

No the question is 'Where did the church FIRST go wrong?'

As to whether the church is separate from the individual people that make it is a difficult stance to adopt, as clearly it is the people that make up the church.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Reminds of a story in the OT about a man who got tired of waiting for a promised son and so because of his in impatience started a problem that has lasted for thousands of years now....

Yes Abraham did what we all do.

Psalm 37:7 “Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for him; fret not yourself over the one who prospers in his way, over the man who carries out evil devices.”

Or

Parables 1:1
Patients is a virtue

 

[Anguspure]

Yes Abraham did what we all do.

Psalm 37:7 “Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for him; fret not yourself over the one who prospers in his way, over the man who carries out evil devices.”

Or

Parables 1:1
Patients is a virtue

Sorry I can't resist...Patients tend to be a pain in the backside, which make patience a virtue.

 

[faroukfarouk]

To re-phrase it: Acts 2.42 is where the church did it right. Reverting to, or continuing to, do it right must mean going back to Acts 2.42.

 

[Anguspure]

To re-phrase it: Acts 2.42 is where the church did it right. Reverting to, or continuing to, do it right must mean going back to Acts 2.42.

... and on to the end of the passage...

They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

The first Pastor I met who vehemently denied this gobsmacked me and confirmed for me the strength with which religion has infiltrated the church.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

To re-phrase it: Acts 2.42 is where the church did it right. Reverting to, or continuing to, do it right must mean going back to Acts 2.42.

Acts2
42They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Psalm 133:1
A song of ascents. Of David. How good and pleasant it is when God's people live together in unity!

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yes Abraham did what we all do.

Psalm 37:7 “Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for him; fret not yourself over the one who prospers in his way, over the man who carries out evil devices.”

Or

Parables 1:1
Patients is a virtue

Great thought from Psalm 37.7.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Great thought from Psalm 37.7.

Psalm 46:10
He says, "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth."

 

[faroukfarouk]

Psalm 46:10
He says, "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth."

This is also a great verse from Psalm 46; in fact we have it displayed in our house.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

This is also a great verse from Psalm 46; in fact we have it displayed in our house.

I have a fridge magnet that says; "Keep calm and know that I am God"

 

[Dave-W]

Alpheus and Bartholomew are written about after that time and we know quite a lot about what they did, where they went, who they met, how they died etc. Nothing about Matthias though.

All extra-biblical which does not count.

 

[Dave-W]

I'm sorry if by being Catholic you find this offensive it just is the truth. Paul was the replacement apostle as the Bible says:

The bible never says Paul was a "replacement." If that was so - then whose replacement was Barnabas? Or Junia?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

All extra-biblical which does not count.

Yes and no. Matthias is extra-Biblical too.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

The bible never says Paul was a "replacement." If that was so - then whose replacement was Barnabas? Or Junia?

No it doesn't work like that. Paul was an apostle like the 11. All the other followers were and are disciples. Disciples don't need replacing. Jesus chose Paul as an apostle, just as Paul says about himself.

 

[Norbert L]

Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus gave the Apostle this one command just before His Ascension but in that 10 days the apostles chose by votes and lot, and also apart from Gods’ instructions, Mattias to replace Judas:

Acts 2:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

This seemly innocuous act carried over and into the Christian faith the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots and started an unofficial man made tradition of voting and drawing lots to replace the disciples after they had died, including Peter and which has continued until this day with each new selection of Pope. However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people as proven by the fact that Jesus chose Paul shortly afterwards.

The innocuous act is directly spoken about in the scriptures, there's no theological detective work of putting 2 + 2 together. It not about the castings of lots, it's about how people act within Christianity (Jude 1:11-16). Paul also brings up the topic in Acts 20:30.

What does God say about electing kings to lead His people in 1 Samuel 8:7. The only real question for any Christian is how are your own earthly Christian leaders visibly acting like. Are they like a king David or are they more like a king Saul?

 

[JoeP222w]

Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus gave the Apostle this one command just before His Ascension but in that 10 days the apostles chose by votes and lot, and also apart from Gods’ instructions, Mattias to replace Judas:

Acts 2:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

This seemly innocuous act carried over and into the Christian faith the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots and started an unofficial man made tradition of voting and drawing lots to replace the disciples after they had died, including Peter and which has continued until this day with each new selection of Pope. However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people as proven by the fact that Jesus chose Paul shortly afterwards.

Where does it say they did not wait for the Lord to provide the Holy Spirit? That is what Jesus was referrring to, not Matthias.

God never appointed the Pope. And Peter was never a Pope.