Where did the Church first go wrong?

[Guide To The Bible]

Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus gave the Apostle this one command just before His Ascension but in that 10 days the apostles chose by votes and lot, and also apart from Gods’ instructions, to replace Judas with Matthias:

Acts 2:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

This seemly innocuous act carried over and into the Christian faith the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots and started an unofficial man made tradition of voting and drawing lots to replace the disciples after they had died, including Peter and which has continued until this day with each new selection of Pope. However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people as proven by the fact that Jesus chose Paul shortly afterwards to be the replacement apostle:

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

The casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church because it is a man made system that is open to corruption and is the problem at the centre of the Catholic Church. If they had of waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. The choice made by the fallible Apostles as to which of the few fallible disciples who were available was a poor decision, compared to Jesus' perfect choosing of Paul from every person available on Earth.

This failure to wait on God and not to act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make daily.

 

[Dave-W]

I do not think that was a big issue.

IN 135 ad Jerusalem revolted against Roman occupation (similar to 70 ad) and lost. It changed history forever. The majority of the Jews were forcibly removed from Judea and Galilee and scattered across the empire. A disparate bunch of Arabs from many tribes were brought in to replace them and Rome renamed Judea to Palestina and called the people Palestinians. (after Israel's ancient enemy the Philistines)

To avoid the persecution that Rome imposed on Jews across the empire, the church decided to distance themselves from Judaism. They changed EVERYTHING that could be construed to be Jewish. Without that anchor, many of the biblical texts had no context to interpret them from so they made up their own and kept getting farther and farther off.

 

[Widlast]

Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus gave the Apostle this one command just before His Ascension but in that 10 days the apostles chose by votes and lot, and also apart from Gods’ instructions, Mattias to replace Judas. We never hear about Mattias ever again. This seemly innocuous act carried over and into the Christian faith the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots and started an unofficial man made tradition of voting and drawing lots to replace the disciples after they had died, including Peter and which has continued until this day with each new selection of Pope. However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people.

You are trying to make much of nothing. Your theory is empty. How Popes are chosen has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the state of the Church (and it is not by drawing lots). And BTW, don't you think God could very easily make sure that His choice is the winner?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I do not think that was a big issue.

IN 135 ad Jerusalem revolted against Roman occupation (similar to 70 ad) and lost. It changed history forever. The majority of the Jews were forcibly removed from Judea and Galilee and scattered across the empire. A disparate bunch of Arabs from many tribes were brought in to replace them and Rome renamed Judea to Palestina and called the people Palestinians. (after Israel's ancient enemy the Philistines)

To avoid the persecution that Rome imposed on Jews across the empire, the church decided to distance themselves from Judaism. They changed EVERYTHING that could be construed to be Jewish. Without that anchor, many of the biblical texts had no context to interpret them from so they made up their own and kept getting farther and farther off.

Yes the Simon Bar Kokhba revolt and the Church's response was a big problem but that church would never have existed in the a form if the man made voting system hadn't of been adopted in the first place. They should have voted for God first and waited as instructed.

 

[Widlast]

I do not think that was a big issue.

IN 135 ad Jerusalem revolted against Roman occupation (similar to 70 ad) and lost. It changed history forever. The majority of the Jews were forcibly removed from Judea and Galilee and scattered across the empire. A disparate bunch of Arabs from many tribes were brought in to replace them and Rome renamed Judea to Palestina and called the people Palestinians. (after Israel's ancient enemy the Philistines)

To avoid the persecution that Rome imposed on Jews across the empire, the church decided to distance themselves from Judaism. They changed EVERYTHING that could be construed to be Jewish. Without that anchor, many of the biblical texts had no context to interpret them from so they made up their own and kept getting farther and farther off.

Where do you get that stuff? That does not even VAGUELY resemble history. The ONLY thing you had right was that the Jewish revolt was in 70 A.D..

 

[Guide To The Bible]

You are trying to make much of nothing. Your theory is empty. How Popes are chosen has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the state of the Church (and it is not by drawing lots). And BTW, don't you think God could very easily make sure that His choice is the winner?

Sorry if I touched a nerve, not my intention honest. I'm just pointing out the biggest mistake the Church ever made. They were instructed to wait not to introduce a man made voting systems to determine who leads, that decision is always God's. As proven by the fact that Jesus chose Paul just a few weeks later.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Where do you get that stuff? That does not even VAGUELY resemble history. The ONLY thing you had right was that the Jewish revolt was in 70 A.D..

The Simon Bar Kokhba revolt 135 AD

 

[Dave-W]

We never hear about Mattias ever again.

To be fair, we never heard of Judas (not iscariot) or James of Alpheus or Bartholomew again either. I don't think that is the issue.

Don't forget the Lord left the apostles with a LOT of authority to set up the church. "Binding and Loosing." Look up what that meant in the Late 2nd Temple period.

 

[Dave-W]

The Simon Bar Kokhba revolt 135 AD

Most Christians have never heard of Bar Kochba.

 

[Thursday]

Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus gave the Apostle this one command just before His Ascension but in that 10 days the apostles chose by votes and lot, and also apart from Gods’ instructions, Mattias to replace Judas. We never hear about Mattias ever again. This seemly innocuous act carried over and into the Christian faith the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots and started an unofficial man made tradition of voting and drawing lots to replace the disciples after they had died, including Peter and which has continued until this day with each new selection of Pope. However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people.

The Church has never gone wrong and it never will, not to say individuals won't go wrong, because we always will.

The Church is protected by Christ. The gates of Hell will not prevail against it. The Holy Spirit is leading it in all Truth. Jesus will be with it until the end of the world.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

To be fair, we never heard of Judas (not iscariot) or James of Alpheus or Bartholomew again either. I don't think that is the issue.

Don't forget the Lord left the apostles with a LOT of authority to set up the church. "Binding and Loosing." Look up what that meant in the Late 2nd Temple period.

Alpheus and Bartholomew are written about after that time and we know quite a lot about what they did, where they went, who they met, how they died etc. Nothing about Matthias though.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Most Christians have never heard of Bar Kochba.

Well yes, it does take time and desire to study through things.

 

[Thursday]

Alpheus and Bartholomew are written about after that time and we know quite a lot about what they did, where they went, who they met, how they died etc. Nothing about Matthias though.

It is generally believed that Matthias ministered in Judaea and then carried out missions to foreign places. Greek tradition states that he Christianized Cappadocia, a mountainous district now in central Turkey, later journeying to the region about the Caspian Sea, where he was martyred by crucifixion and, according to other legends, chopped apart. His symbol, related to his alleged martyrdom, is either a cross or a halberd. St. Helena, mother of the Roman emperor Constantine the Great, reputedly transported Matthias’ relics from Jerusalem to Rome.

Saint Matthias | Apostle

 

[Guide To The Bible]

The Church has never gone wrong and it never will, not to say individuals won't go wrong, because we always will.

So the individuals who make up the church go wrong but the Church they make up never goes wrong but the individuals who make up the church go wrong but the Church they make up never goes wrong but the individuals who make up the church go wrong but the Church they make up never goes wrong. Hang on is this one of those mobius strips?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

It is generally believed that Matthias ministered in Judaea and then carried out missions to foreign places. Greek tradition states that he Christianized Cappadocia, a mountainous district now in central Turkey, later journeying to the region about the Caspian Sea, where he was martyred by crucifixion and, according to other legends, chopped apart. His symbol, related to his alleged martyrdom, is either a cross or a halberd. St. Helena, mother of the Roman emperor Constantine the Great, reputedly transported Matthias’ relics from Jerusalem to Rome.

Saint Matthias | Apostle

I stand corrected, thanks but Paul did far more. He wrote 32% of the NT for a start, more than anyone else. My point still stands.

 

[Thursday]

So the individuals who make up the church go wrong but the Church they make up never goes wrong but the individuals who make up the church go wrong but the Church they make up never goes wrong but the individuals who make up the church go wrong but the Church they make up never goes wrong. Hang on is this one of those mobius strips?

Yes. Individuals are sinners, but the Church is protected by the promises of Christ.

 

[Thursday]

I stand corrected, thanks but Paul did far more. He wrote 32% of the NT for a start, more than anyone else. My point still stands.

That's irrelevant to the Church. Not all Church members will have the same impact.

Both Paul and Matthias were members of the Church.

1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Yes. Individuals are sinners, but the Church is protected by the promises of Christ.

So you didn't mean "So the individuals who make up the church go wrong but the Church they make up never goes wrong."

 

[Guide To The Bible]

That's irrelevant to the Church. Not all Church members will have the same impact.

Both Paul and Matthias were members of the Church.

1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Paul's impact was irrelevant to the church? Is that what your suggesting?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Most Christians have never heard of Bar Kochba.

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