When does "lust" become a sin?

[Ragnaros]

Lust is apparently a sin, right? First of all, where are verses in the Bible that condemn lust?

Now let's forget about what the official English dictionary says what lust means. I want to know what you guys think is sinning.

What I think "lust" as a form of sin is, is when you imagine yourself having sex with or doing sexual acts with another. It's ok to find someone attractive and be sexually attracted to them, but it's not ok to have sexual fantasies about them. It's the same way with anger - it's ok to be angry at someone, but it's not OK to lose control of your thoughts and have fantasies about hurting them.

-Is thinking someone is attractive a sin? I don't think so, as God gave created us to be sexual creatures, so there's nothing wrong with finding someone "hot".

-Is wanting to have sex with someone a sin? I don't think so, so long as you control your thoughts. I don't see anything wrong with telling myself "If my future wife looked like this, I would love to have sex with her".

-Is getting "turned on" by someone a sin? Once again, I don't think so. God created us with sexual desires to be present with the onset of puberty - it really wouldn't make sense if it's only OK to have sexual urges before you're married. It's simply not biologically possible.

-Is looking at swimsuit pictures a sin? I don't think so, as God designed the woman's image to be pleasing to the man. I don't see anything wrong with just examining the beauty of a woman as long as you're not having impure thoughts about the woman in the picture. Nude pictures are a bit different, though, as it's hard not to imagine having sex with a woman when you are looking at her naked. If you can look at nude pictures without "lusting" (my definition of lust at the top), then it shouldn't be wrong - however, we should flee from sin, so to be safe we should stay away from nude images and stick with swimsuit pics if we want to admire the female form. Of course some people may have so much trouble controlling their thoughts that they shouldn't even look at women in swimsuits either. And obviously, looking at a naked woman does not automatically equal sin - otherwise, all those people working in morgues, doctors, and anyone else whose job requires them to look at naked people would be sinning every weekday.

It seems like I have a very loose definition of what lust is compared to a lot of other Christians, but I've never really talked to other Christians about what they consider lust to be.

 

[MN John]

Lust is apparently a sin, right? First of all, where are verses in the Bible that condemn lust?

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Now let's forget about what the official English dictionary says what lust means. I want to know what you guys think is sinning.

Personal opinion: "Lustful intent," for me, would be any looking or imagining that involves appreciating a woman's body in a sexual context or thinking on her as a sexual object or focussing on her gender-specific body parts. So yes, I would include anything beyond "noticing."

What I think "lust" as a form of sin is, is when you imagine yourself having sex with or doing sexual acts with another.

That is certainly lust but as you see, I draw my line far earlier.

It's ok to find someone attractive and be sexually attracted to them, but it's not ok to have sexual fantasies about them.

I'd go along with that. I just think that sexual fantasy includes thoughts like ""If my future wife looked like this, I would love to have sex with her".

-Is thinking someone is attractive a sin? I don't think so, as God gave created us to be sexual creatures, so there's nothing wrong with finding someone "hot".

Finding someone sexually attractive is part of finding your spouse. However, finding someone that you don't even have a relaionship with sexually attractive is lust.

-Is wanting to have sex with someone a sin? I don't think so, so long as you control your thoughts.

If my thoughts are "I love her and I am eager for the day when I can add pleasing her in a sexual way to the ways that I love, serve, and share pleasure with her," then I think that I am on solid ground. If my thoughts are "Rrrrrr! I want that!" then I'm lusting.

-Is getting "turned on" by someone a sin? Once again, I don't think so. ... It's simply not biologically possible.

But getting turned on, having a physical reaction, is a red flag to tell us that we are dwelling too much on sex or that what we are doing or thinking is not appropriate.

-Is looking at swimsuit pictures a sin? I don't think so, as God designed the woman's image to be pleasing to the man. I don't see anything wrong with just examining the beauty of a woman as long as you're not having impure thoughts about the woman in the picture. Nude pictures are a bit different, though, as it's hard not to imagine having sex with a woman when you are looking at her naked. If you can look at nude pictures without "lusting" (my definition of lust at the top), then it shouldn't be wrong - however, we should flee from sin, so to be safe we should stay away from nude images and stick with swimsuit pics if we want to admire the female form. Of course some people may have so much trouble controlling their thoughts that they shouldn't even look at women in swimsuits either. And obviously, looking at a naked woman does not automatically equal sin - otherwise, all those people working in morgues, doctors, and anyone else whose job requires them to look at naked people would be sinning every weekday.

If the woman isn't your wife, then looking at her in revealing clothing or nude is not sin in itself. However, if you feel that you need to write a long defense of your actions, then your conscience is probably already telling you that you are lusting.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

It seems like I have a very loose definition of what lust is compared to a lot of other Christians, but I've never really talked to other Christians about what they consider lust to be.

OK, so let's talk about what lust is and whether it is always sin. Lust is sexual desire that you act on by thinking about it, dwelling on it, or just enjoying the feeling. Lust is not always sin, because when you are married you can think about your desire for sex with your wife, you can imagine what it will be like the next time, you can enjoy your sexual attraction to her. But when the woman is not your wife, lusting over her is a sin.

As an unmarried man, I have to control my sexual desire for my girlfriend. I have to acknowledge it's existence, but I should not allow myself to get turned on. I am eager for the day when we are married and sex will be another way that we can share pleasure and oneness, but for now that is not something that I should be imagining.

So what do I have ... I am courting a woman that I hope to marry. I am attracted to her in many ways, including sexually. Lust, the way I have used the term just above, is not always sin, but to lust over her right now would be a sin because she is not my wife. If we determine that it is God's will for us to marry, then when we believe the time is right, we will get engaged and marry after a short (few months) engagement. When we get engaged, I intend to allow my desire for her to become lust, because we will not get engaged while we are still deciding whether to marry, but after we have decided. Now this is the same argument that others sometimes use to justify sex before marriage, but that's not what we're talking about here. Sex still has to wait until marriage, but I will allow myself to savor the anticipation when we have made our commitment to marry and it is imminent. Then, of course, once we are married, neither sex with my wife nor lusting for my wife will be sin.

My conclusion: Lust is integral to sex. Like sex, it is meant to be shared between a married couple. Unlike sex, it is not the actual act but is a part of our thought life. So while we wouldn't have sex a few days before we are married, lust at that point is essentially lust for my wife; and while even after we are married we wouldn't have sex in a room full of people, I could be in a room full of people and think about what we will do after we get home without sinning.

I'm not any kind of expert on any of this. All I have said is my own opinion and conclusions. I admit that the shakiest part is my idea that lust is OK during engagement ... but that is in part dependent on the specific way that Sara and I view what engagementis for ... when you are completely and fully ready to marry, commit to one another, and then just take a few months to prepare for the wedding ceremony ... engagement, for us, is not about making sure, it is about already having made sure and just getting the details of the celebration together.

Peace,
John

 

[Evie1980]

Hmmm interesting (and controversial) topic. Lust is a sin but what does it mean to lust? well I think that lust is wanting something that you don't have to the point where you become consumed. Now looking at a sexual nature I think that it is easy to lust and there are things that help us to lust after sex and makes it harder to get away from the all consuming power of lust. So do I think that I should look at naked men? No but then I don't mind looking at men and admiring their bodies. After all man is made in God's image so admiring their bodies is like admiring God (or something like that). But is that good for me on a spiritual level? Well maybe not - because whilst I am too busy admiring man's body (and God's handiwork) I am really openning myself up to sexual lust - wanting what I can't have and maybe not what God wants in my life. The problem is it is hard to draw the line between what is good for us and what is bad. Paul clearly tells us not to become involved with sexual sin but does that including lusting or thinking about it? I believe Thinking about our future partners and what we would want them to wear and look like is not good for us. It places unfair emphasis on the body and not the soul of the individual person and if we are in a realtionship that we find that the person looks like and dresses like the person in our mind, we may miss what they really are like and who God really wants for us.

Now let me get this clear I am no expert on this matter and have found this one of my greatest areas of sin. It has taken me a long time to over come and it still haunts me. It is easy for us to sit here and discuss theory but in real life things are not as easy. I have found that the best way for me to over come this sin is to abstain from things of a sexual nature - temptation to lust is always the beginning of the situation and all sin starts in the heart and mind. You may, after all, be a lot stronger willed than I and are able to overcome sexual temptation without the slightest hinderance. You may be able to look at magazines and not get consumed by thoughts and desires.

Like you said this is not a topic often discussed and each of us will have different views. I just pray that we are able to share openly and honestly our opinoins, and may they be pleasing unto the Lord. Yours in Christ, Evie

 

[~HopeFloats~]

Usually if you are questioning something, at least for me I know I am about to cross the line and comitt a sin such a lusting after someone..

I do think as long as you are not acting on your thoughts and feelings that are wrong that is a plus.

 

[TriptychR]

So what do I have ... I am courting a woman that I hope to marry. I am attracted to her in many ways, including sexually. Lust, the way I have used the term just above, is not always sin, but to lust over her right now would be a sin because she is not my wife. If we determine that it is God's will for us to marry, then when we believe the time is right, we will get engaged and marry after a short (few months) engagement. When we get engaged, I intend to allow my desire for her to become lust, because we will not get engaged while we are still deciding whether to marry, but after we have decided. Now this is the same argument that others sometimes use to justify sex before marriage, but that's not what we're talking about here. Sex still has to wait until marriage, but I will allow myself to savor the anticipation when we have made our commitment to marry and it is imminent. Then, of course, once we are married, neither sex with my wife nor lusting for my wife will be sin.

However, if you feel that you need to write a long defense of your actions, then your conscience is probably already telling you that you are lusting.

Just making the observation that your explanation here is about the same length as the one you criticized the OP on.

Do you really think opening yourself up to lust during engagement is safe? What if you're overtaken and have sex before the big day? What would you do then?

 

[~HopeFloats~]

I was directed to Matthew 5 and the thought of it is a sin.. read it and you too will see

 

[MN John]

Just making the observation that your explanation here is about the same length as the one you criticized the OP on.

Do you really think opening yourself up to lust during engagement is safe? What if you're overtaken and have sex before the big day? What would you do then?

I really think that if we can go a couple of years, then a few more months will be possible. I think that we have about the same chances of "being overcome" now as we will when we're engaged and the same reasons to resist. We have set our physical boundaries and currently think we'll loosen them for the engagement period. So hopefully there will lots of kissing during our engagement and that will be enough of a new thrill to satisfy us for a short time. However, when we get there, we might think that after waiting this long, a few more months of no changes in our physical boundaries would be a good thing.

Presently, my desire for Sara must be something that I do not dwell on because she is not my wife. So although I have the desire, I have to put it aside and not think too much about it or act on it. When we are certain to be married, I believe it will be OK for me to allow my desire for her to be something to think about. A comparison to Song of Solomon when the lovers were apart and longing for each other might be made. They were apart in location, we will just be apart in terms of timing, not yet married, so not yet made one, so still apart for a while, but also still desiring the upcoming union.

I'm not sure where to draw a line between idealism (that there would be no lust or sex except for my actual present-time wife) and realism (I know me, I would lust for her as soon as I let my mental boundary down). I'm not there yet, so I could be wrong, but I believe this is the way it would play out. I also think that our way of thinking of engagement makes a difference ... the decision and commitiment and covenant have been made, we just need a little time to make it ceremonial and legal. Again, I realize that this reason could be given by someone justifying sex while engaged, but I don't agree that it does justify sex. So I'm not consistently applying my argument. Sometimes I'm inconsistent.

You asked what would we do if we were overcome and had sex before the wedding. Well, I hope that doesn't happen. But if it does, we will need to confess and take measures to assure that it won't happen again until after the wedding.

Thanks,
John

 

[TriptychR]

I'm not there yet, so I could be wrong, but I believe this is the way it would play out. I also think that our way of thinking of engagement makes a difference ... the decision and commitiment and covenant have been made, we just need a little time to make it ceremonial and legal. Again, I realize that this reason could be given by someone justifying sex while engaged, but I don't agree that it does justify sex. So I'm not consistently applying my argument. Sometimes I'm inconsistent.

It's pretty reassuring to know that you and your significant other have planned this all out and feel confident enough to fulfill it, but I hope you understand how I could see it as a risk. Of course, if you two haven't even kissed yet, that would be a pretty safe thing to keep you, uh, "entertained" during that time.

Also, remember that anything can happen. I wish I could remember the verse (I think it's in James) that warns not to say "Tomorrow I will do this." I truly hope you two make it to marriage, but engagement is still no guarantee that feelings or circumstances won't change no matter how long you have been together.

I'm sure you've probably thought of this stuff already, though. Don't think this, younger, long-time dateless guy thinks he knows more than you about a relationship.

 

[Followers4christ]

yes lust is a sin.God Bless

Colossians 3:5 "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry."

Matthew 5:28"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Corinthians 6:18"flee from sexual immorality.All other sins a man commits are outside the body,but he who sins sexually sins against his own body".

 

[Johnnz]

Finding someone sexually attractive is part of finding your spouse. However, finding someone that you don't even have a relaionship with sexually attractive is lust.

But getting turned on, having a physical reaction, is a red flag to tell us that we are dwelling too much on sex or that what we are doing or thinking is not appropriate.If the woman isn't your wife, then looking at her in revealing clothing or nude is not sin in itself. However, if you feel that you need to write a long defense of your actions, then your conscience is probably already telling you that you are lusting.OK, so let's talk about what lust is and whether it is always sin. Lust is sexual desire that you act on by thinking about it, dwelling on it, or just enjoying the feeling. Lust is not always sin, because when you are married you can think about your desire for sex with your wife, you can imagine what it will be like the next time, you can enjoy your sexual attraction to her. But when the woman is not your wife, lusting over her is a sin.

As an unmarried man, I have to control my sexual desire for my girlfriend. I have to acknowledge it's existence, but I should not allow myself to get turned on. I am eager for the day when we are married and sex will be another way that we can share pleasure and oneness, but for now that is not something that I should be imagining.

So what do I have ... I am courting a woman that I hope to marry. I am attracted to her in many ways, including sexually. Lust, the way I have used the term just above, is not always sin, but to lust over her right now would be a sin because she is not my wife. If we determine that it is God's will for us to marry, then when we believe the time is right, we will get engaged and marry after a short (few months) engagement. When we get engaged, I intend to allow my desire for her to become lust, because we will not get engaged while we are still deciding whether to marry, but after we have decided. Now this is the same argument that others sometimes use to justify sex before marriage, but that's not what we're talking about here. Sex still has to wait until marriage, but I will allow myself to savor the anticipation when we have made our commitment to marry and it is imminent. Then, of course, once we are married, neither sex with my wife nor lusting for my wife will be sin.

My conclusion: Lust is integral to sex. Like sex, it is meant to be shared between a married couple. Unlike sex, it is not the actual act but is a part of our thought life. So while we wouldn't have sex a few days before we are married, lust at that point is essentially lust for my wife; and while even after we are married we wouldn't have sex in a room full of people, I could be in a room full of people and think about what we will do after we get home without sinning.

Peace,
John

What a great name you have.

Many Christians confuse normal sexual arousal with lust. That makes life unusually stressful.

Normal physical arousal occurs because we are sexual beings. God made us that way. A general interest in sexual matters and the opposite sex, erections and female arousal are perfectly normal, healhty and hormone activated responses.

Lust has a moral component, a deliberate willingness or intent to do something wrong. Sexual interest or arousal can lead to lust, but not necessarily. Not all arousal is lust. It's really important to recognise the difference. You wrote "Lust is sexual desire that you act on by thinking about it, dwelling on it, or just enjoying the feeling". That statement confuses human sexuality with lust, a mere physical response with moral failure.

The only red flag is to recognise that something may go further, so be careful, but there is no need to go into denial about one's sexuality, or to feel guilty because you have sexual feelings.

Our conscience is not always reliable. Where we do not have a clear set of guidelines or principles we can easily get into false guilt. There is a lot of false guilt about sexual isues amongst Christians

It is normal to feel sexually aroused and even desirious with your future life's partner. That's as it should be. But, Christians belive that those desires are not acted on until marriage. We should never expect couples to be asexual, only healthily and responsibly moral.

John
NZ

 

[MN John]

It's pretty reassuring to know that you and your significant other have planned this all out and feel confident enough to fulfill it, but I hope you understand how I could see it as a risk. Of course, if you two haven't even kissed yet, that would be a pretty safe thing to keep you, uh, "entertained" during that time.

Also, remember that anything can happen. I wish I could remember the verse (I think it's in James) that warns not to say "Tomorrow I will do this." I truly hope you two make it to marriage, but engagement is still no guarantee that feelings or circumstances won't change no matter how long you have been together.

I'm sure you've probably thought of this stuff already, though. Don't think this, younger, long-time dateless guy thinks he knows more than you about a relationship.

Thanks for your thoughts. There are always risks. We recently changed our curfew from midnight to 11 PM in order to avoid some of the risks. It's not that we have never kissed. But we do not kiss recreationally. At a significant occasion we will kiss but only a brief peck, not deep, not lengthy. So we're saving much for at lest engagement that many Christians would say was OK for us right now.

While there is never a guarantee about tomorrow, we intend to postpone engagement long enough and keep it short enough that there will be virtually no doubt.

As far as feelings or circumstances changing ... that could potentially happen after you are married too. I think that we will have no more doubt after we are engaged than we will after we are married. But that would not be true for everybody.

Peace,
John

 

[JPPT1974]

Before it begins in the body
It begins in the mind
As well as in the soul
Where you want to fantisize
About someone that isn't your spouse or boy/girlfriend.

 

[NicelyAged]

"Many Christians confuse normal sexual arousal with lust. That makes life unusually stressful."

** Absolutely. Thank you John for pointing that out.

Lust is a condition of the heart much more than a condition of the mind.

I think it's very difficult for us to comprehend what life and society was like in biblical times and the sexual debauchery that existed, beyond what we experience today. But the bible is very clear with it descriptions of the conditions that existed back then.

Jack. You're very impressive. Thanks for you comments. I enjoy reading what you have to say.

 

[NicelyAged]

"Jack. You're very impressive. Thanks for you comments. I enjoy reading what you have to say. "

** That was addressed to JAKG.

 

[MN John]

"Jack. You're very impressive. Thanks for you comments. I enjoy reading what you have to say. "

** That was addressed to JAKG.

Thanks, I get "Jack" a lot. JAKG are actually my initials and the J is for John.

Thanks for the edification. But I'm really just an average guy with a very impressive Savior.

John

 

[JPPT1974]

"Many Christians confuse normal sexual arousal with lust. That makes life unusually stressful."

** Absolutely. Thank you John for pointing that out.

Lust is a condition of the heart much more than a condition of the mind.

I think it's very difficult for us to comprehend what life and society was like in biblical times and the sexual debauchery that existed, beyond what we experience today. But the bible is very clear with it descriptions of the conditions that existed back then.

Jack. You're very impressive. Thanks for you comments. I enjoy reading what you have to say.

Very impressive my friend.
As well.
Lust is indeed a condition of the heart as much more than the condition of the mind.
Amen!

 

[Ragnaros]

What a great name you have.

Many Christians confuse normal sexual arousal with lust. That makes life unusually stressful.

Normal physical arousal occurs because we are sexual beings. God made us that way. A general interest in sexual matters and the opposite sex, erections and female arousal are perfectly normal, healhty and hormone activated responses.

Lust has a moral component, a deliberate willingness or intent to do something wrong. Sexual interest or arousal can lead to lust, but not necessarily. Not all arousal is lust. It's really important to recognise the difference. You wrote "Lust is sexual desire that you act on by thinking about it, dwelling on it, or just enjoying the feeling". That statement confuses human sexuality with lust, a mere physical response with moral failure.

The only red flag is to recognise that something may go further, so be careful, but there is no need to go into denial about one's sexuality, or to feel guilty because you have sexual feelings.

Our conscience is not always reliable. Where we do not have a clear set of guidelines or principles we can easily get into false guilt. There is a lot of false guilt about sexual isues amongst Christians

It is normal to feel sexually aroused and even desirious with your future life's partner. That's as it should be. But, Christians belive that those desires are not acted on until marriage. We should never expect couples to be asexual, only healthily and responsibly moral.

John
NZ

That is very wise, I think. A lot of Christians here in America seem to be needlessly puritanical when it comes to sexual matters, and it can lead to a lot of frustration. I think a lot of guilt we feel comes when we feel we might have violated acceptable cultural norms... and in most Christian communities (unless you're in a very laid back Christian community), it seems like anything from looking at the swimsuit edition of Sports Illustrated to masturbation is frowned upon, so if we do, say, look at the swimsuit edition, we feel like we have violated the cutural norms established by our Christian community.

I think if we really want to know if we've done something wrong, that we should just bring it before God and ask him to let us know if we have sinned. Sometimes when I used to deliberately fantasize about sex a lot, I would pray to God and immediately he would make me feel guilty. It may have just been in my mind, but when I am in prayer, it seems like I can see and feel spiritual matters much more clearly, so I don't think it was just my mind. But other times when I looked at an attractive lady in a bikini and went to God in prayer, I got the sense that I had done nothing wrong. Though there were a few times when I deliberately imagined myself performing sexual acts to the woman in the picture, and then I felt guilty about it later when I prayed.

I really appreciate all of you. Thank you for not getting mad at me and being accusatory towards me.

Jakg, you are right in that I spent a long time explaining that. I will pray... no, actually let me pray about that right now.

*a minute later*

Ok, I think I was sinning a little, as I do look at porn every now and then. God really doesn't want me doing that. Strictly non nude stuff is what I need to be doing. I'm not saying it's wrong for anyone to look at topless women, but I think it's wrong for me at least. For the most part, I don't think that just looking at women in skimpy clothing is wrong at all. Another reason why I was defensive was because I anticipated a lot of people from the overly puritanical camp reading this topic, and I wanted to explain my logic.

Thanks all, for not getting overly accusatory towards me. I've struggled with the issue of lust for a long time now, and I actually think I've gotten some answers on the issue now. Some of what I am doing is fine, but some other stuff is wrong. God bless you all for being kind and loving in this topic. Also, sorry if I am a bit incomprehensible - I've never been very good at fleshing out my thoughts into words.

 

[MN John]

God gave us a conscience. We can train ourrselves to ignore or downplay our legitimate feelings of guilt when we sin, but the law is written on our hearts.

I know that looking at pretty women, dressed entirely or dressed slightly, is pleasurable. But if you seek God's will and find the woman that He would have you marry, then you won't be glad that you looked at so many others, you will want her to be the only image of feminine beauty that you know. So, for me at least, I think it's better to avoid seeing those other images.

Peace,
John

 

[NicelyAged]

"Very impressive my friend.
As well.
Lust is indeed a condition of the heart as much more than the condition of the mind.
Amen!"


** Thanks Jppt I just wish I could always be right. But it doesn't work that way LoL!

 

[NicelyAged]

"Lust has a moral component, a deliberate willingness or intent to do something wrong. Sexual interest or arousal can lead to lust, but not necessarily. Not all arousal is lust. It's really important to recognise the difference. You wrote "Lust is sexual desire that you act on by thinking about it, dwelling on it, or just enjoying the feeling". That statement confuses human sexuality with lust, a mere physical response with moral failure."


** That's fantastic John. You can tell when lust exists by the fruits it produces. Things like pornagraphy addicition and STD's. As John has said, having sexual thoughts and attraction is not necessarily lusting.

In my 11 years serving in youth and singles ministry, I've watched Christians torture themselves because of this misunderstanding of what lust really is. There is no way to not think about sex. We're not built that way. Abstaining is hard enough, and so many Christians add to that difficulty by feeling guilty about or trying to fight sexually normal thoughts and feelings.

The bible does a great job of providing descriptive terms of the condition of the heart that has been given over to lust. "Burning with passion" is good example. I don't think normal sexual arousal would be accurately described as burning with passion.